Re distilling cut spirit.

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snibs
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Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by snibs »

Hi all.
Getting right into this hobby and I just filtered my third batch of spirit with the reflux but have a problem, my first two batches I must say I'm more than happy with and I love it but this third batch has a small bit of that metho/paint stripper taste (no smell) to it, not sure how it happened, must of caught some tails in it, I throw away the first 150ml but anyway my question is can it be re-distilled in the next 20 lt BW wash now that it's been cut down to about %50? I'm thinking the 3 odd litres will water the wash down to much but at %50 it might not. I won't lose any sleep if it go's down the sink, just a shame.
Thanks for any help
lesson learnt, will do the 50/50 teaspoon taste test from now instead of just smell.

Oops...It won't dilute the wash will it....thinking %90 instead of %9 in wash.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by still_stirrin »

Don't dump it. You can recycle with your birdwatchers wash....if it will all fit into your boiler.

Do you do a "one & done" distill? It sounds like it. I like to strip 3 ferments, collecting the low wines for a spirit run. Do your cuts on the spirit run even if you take a little foreshots cut on each of the strip runs. It will clean it up much better. What you're tasting in your 3rd batch is mostly heads...ethyl acetate, acetylaldehyde, and some early diktones. They will give you that "paint thinner" smell & taste, and they'll kick your head too!
ss
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Plc Ryan
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by Plc Ryan »

A lot of missing information here but at the root of your question there is no harm in throwing it in with some wash and re running it as long as the wash in the boiler is less than 40% ABV which by the sounds of it will be.

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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by snibs »

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it.
No worries with the boiler it's a keg, yes a one and done run which has been great so far, the still is home made from the 'Moonshine made simple" book, it's a 550 column by 50 wide with 4 cooling tubes and marbles for packing. The first run I did took 9 hours at a very slow drip with a 25 litre wash and the exhaust water was luke warm at best, very happy with 2.2lt of product and it was turbo stuff (asked in brew shop before finding the bw wash). Second run was BW's wash, 20 lt and a much slower water rate and got the same result as first but 1.7 lt of great product but less "wash" smell. This run now that I have thought about it I turned water down even more and maybe it didn't reflux enough but still took 8 hours. Live and learn, I'm loving the science of it all and will dial up the water again, just do washing on the same day, I could not waste the water. Heat source is gas but I have it as low as possible to just get the vapour to the top of the column.
Wash is BW's first page to the letter so about %9, not tried a vitamin b pill yet, would a Berocca work?
Mick.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by still_stirrin »

Mick,

The "cross tubes" tells me it's a coolant managed (CM) reflux still. With only a 1/2 meter tall column (is that all filled with packing, or does that height also include the cross tubes?), you're not going to get the highest purity possible. Add another 1/2 meter of packed column and you'll be able to pull azeo out of it. For the 50 mm diameter column, 1 meter of packed column will help you a lot.

Running a CM, you control the reflux ratio by regulating the coolant flow. The traditional cross tube reflux condensers are not the most efficient design, so it takes more flow with less adjustment in the reflux control capability (adjustment sensitivity). This is because the vapor is exposed to less surface area of the cross tubes (than other, more contemporary designs). But, it will condense some of the rising vapors creating some reflux.

To increase purity, you need to run it with more heat, generating more vapor and then increase the reflux ratio by turning up the coolant flowrate. This will condense the vapor faster causing more of it to condense and travel back down into the packing, where it will reboil from the heat of the rising hot vapors. This action separates the lighter (lower boiling point constituents) from the heavier (like water), raising the purity of the product collected. It also gives a better separation of your ethanol from the foreshots and heads...less smearing of them into your "keeper spirits".

Again, if after 3 days of airing out and you still have "hot" spirits, it most certainly is from too much heads in your cuts. Is it a "mouth burn" or is it more of a "chest warming" sensation? If the former (hot mouth), it is definitely heads. If it's the latter (chest warmth), it likely is too high of sampling proof...are you? (hint - always dilute your samples to below 100 proof, preferably below 90 proof).

Finally, using a B-vitamin will help the ferment as it is a nutrient that helps the yeast metabolize the sugars. But I haven't a clue what a Berocca is...enlighten us.
ss
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by artooks »

Dear Mick,

I am also a beginner, that has had many problem with my fermentation, and smell related to that, on thing I learned is that the cuts need to be made in small jars and right now my procedure is to make a stripping run with potstill and also now adding copper scrubbers to reduce the sulphur smell, but you have to be careful also with the wash that you are going to make the yeast nutrient here is very important, then I use my CCVM still for the spirit run have 12 - 400ml jars but collect 200ml and aerate for a day then taste them discard the foreshots and use the heads and tails as cleaning alcohol so I use almost roughly 55%-60% of the alcohol as hearts, I was doing different washes back than now I am only using ALl-Bran Wash which was suggested by Still_Stirrin, and must say it has many adventages as the main thing is it already contains everything which the yeast thrives for. I would suggest you to try this and make cuts in small jars leave them for a day taste each them then decide which ones to keep. Good Luck.
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by snibs »

First off here is the easiest way to tell you what a Berocca is.
http://www.berocca.com.au/?WT.mc_id=SEM ... Aopg8P8HAQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I just happen to have them here.
Yes it's a CM still for sure, my first and second run was a great success from what I know about it all, no bad smells and tasted "vodka" great. Water flow was fast on 1 and 2 compared to 3rd run so I assume I pushed my luck on water conservation so will speed it up to luke warm again and make sure there's washing to be done and dog to be washed. According to my alcohol meter my very first 300ml on run 1 was %94 at close to 20c. The marbles will roll in the tube but I cant change the length as it's all welded together, if I can Ill post a picture of it. Running this batch through the filter now and will see how it is in a few days as you suggest SS and see if there is a burn, not had any burn with the good stuff just a nice lite warm feeling.
Artooks,
Yes I have 12 small jars as suggested on here somewhere and used them on run one but just started adding them together after 2 or 3 jars just going on smell, will go back to many jars and taste as well as smell. I will look the ALl-Bran Wash now. Not had any wash problems but like to see what changes this and that can do. Think I covered it all.
Thanks again for the replies.
Mick.
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snibs
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by snibs »

Much improved after a few days but decided to re distill anyway, another question please, how much time would re distilling 3 litres of spirit at about %40 add to a 20 litre BW wash? it always seems to take about 8 hours so wondering if I should make a 10 litre wash and do it with that. Thanks again.
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by HDNB »

kind of a how long is a piece of string question. depends on the heat input, reflux ratio, cooling capacity and what abv you are trying to achieve.
you may be further ahead time wise by stripping the BW as fast as the condenser will allow you to go. In fact, do a couple as fast as you can can, collect your low wines to an average of 35% then add in what you have and do a spirit run once you have collected a still full of low wines. it will save time and you'll get a superior product in the long run.
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by snibs »

Thanks HDNB,
I will have to read up more on stripping runs and give it a go, thought it was for pot stills mostly.
Mick.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by still_stirrin »

snibs wrote:...I will have to read up more on stripping runs and give it a go, thought it was for pot stills mostly.
Mick,

You can make your CM reflux run like a potstill by simply bypassing the water flow to the reflux condenser (cross tube network) and removing the packing.

Then, it is a simple "potstill" and will strip just fine.
ss
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by HDNB »

snibs wrote:Thanks HDNB,
I will have to read up more on stripping runs and give it a go, thought it was for pot stills mostly.
Mick.
unless your thru tubes perform magic, i'd say you are running closer to a pot than a reflux.

can you hold 100% reflux back? (with a significant amount of heat?) like 2 or 3 Litres perhour?
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by snibs »

HDNB wrote:
snibs wrote:Thanks HDNB,
I will have to read up more on stripping runs and give it a go, thought it was for pot stills mostly.
Mick.
unless your thru tubes perform magic, i'd say you are running closer to a pot than a reflux.

can you hold 100% reflux back? (with a significant amount of heat?) like 2 or 3 Litres perhour?
Not sure I understand the question, if you mean stop the drip with water flow I will try next run. I try and get the heat to keep vapour constant at the thermometer, it will sit at 78 - 79 for hours and when it creeps to 81 I just stop, that will be around 8 hours all up and I've had enough then. Been getting about 1.6 litres at %90 which I'm more than happy with, still have most of my first run sitting here, not a huge drinker :D but having fun learning it all.
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by snibs »

still_stirrin wrote:
snibs wrote:...I will have to read up more on stripping runs and give it a go, thought it was for pot stills mostly.
Mick,

You can make your CM reflux run like a potstill by simply bypassing the water flow to the reflux condenser (cross tube network) and removing the packing.

Then, it is a simple "potstill" and will strip just fine.
ss
i thought that was the case. Once I get this part of stilling locked down I'd like to try a wash with grains or fruit to get that original flavour but that wont be tomorrow.
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NZChris
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by NZChris »

'One and done' is a bit of a mug's game in my opinion. My research, pre internet, youtube, forums etc., told me that singles weren't much good for anything that I wanted to make, including neutrals, so I started with a fermenter that could hold four charges worth of ferment. I've never regretted that decision. It's still my most used fermenter three decades later.
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HDNB
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by HDNB »

in a nut shell, forget the temperatures. turn off your reflux water and apply heat until the maximum flow rate is achieved. (everything the product condenser can cool before it starts producing steam/vapour) That's your baseline output, looks like about a 2" riser so it should create 2-3 litres per hour of distillate without much problem.
once you have that flow rate, turn on your thru tubes full on. then measure the output flow with the same heat. that's your reflux ratio...so if it does 3lph sans reflux and 1.5lph with, that's 50% reflux, if it can stop the flow, that's 100%

If you can't get 100% then it's a potstill that has some reflux capability.

so long story short...re read NZC's post. make 4 charges worth of wash. strip 25% of the volume of them as fast as the rig allows.(no tubes) collect the 25% 4 times and you will have a 100% still charge around 35% abv. (assuming a 7-8% abv wash)

Then... spirit run. if you want flavour, keep the tubes off (whisky, rum, fruit) if you want neutral turn the tubes on. The higher the ABV coming out, the less flavour it will have. if it still has flavour after this, dilute to 40% and do it again.

Forget temperature and think output rate. (you will also read this as "think heat" not temp) and if you have not read kiwistillers guide to cuts yet (about 3 or 4 times) here is a convenient link to the best information you can find for makin' booze: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=11640
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snibs
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Re: Re distilling cut spirit.

Post by snibs »

Ill have to make do with one 30 litre fermenter because of room, ill read the above post again and give it a try on a smaller scale.
Thanks again for the replies.
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