Having no flavor?

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NickTN101
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Having no flavor?

Post by NickTN101 »

Okay, I am completely new to not only this forum but all forums. I have never distilled on my own before I have always helped someone make it. Well bought me a very well made still, It is a ten gallon copper still. Everything is copper, I run a 2 gallon thumper and a 2 gallon copper bucket with about 5 foot worm coiled in it. All the lines are 3/8s copper line and everything is well made. I have made home made wine for a long time and everyone loves it. I keep about 100 gallons of different flavors and its usually around 10-16 percent depending on the fruit I used. Well I decided to run about 6 gallons through my still and I kept the temp. at about 185-200 degrees the whole time. I ran it until is completely stopped dripping and the temp started to rise so I cut it off and I got a gallon and some change out of it and that is after pouring out the head of it. Well I got the hydrometer and tested and it was 110 proof so I got some of the wine I was distilled and mixed it until it was 85 proof and it had a hell of a kick and no flavor at all. Pretty much tasteless besides my throat burning lol. I washed my still and everything with hot vinegar water and everything so what am I doing wrong? I thought that distilling wine would give a lot of flavor but it was not what am I doing wrong????
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by Pikey »

Whatt still are you running - what wine are you putting through it ? FFS we need to know something before we can help you ! :)
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by NickTN101 »

I guess I am using a pot still? I am not sure the different types but it is a ten gallon copper still with a 2 gallon thumper and a 2 gallon bucket with a 5 ft copper worm inside of it. The wine I am running through it is a Muscidine wine that I have made for years but never distilled until now. The wine I ran was 2 years old that was in my wine cellar and stored in a 5 gallon glass jug and alc content is 12 percent. Also what does FFS mean?
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Truckinbutch
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by Truckinbutch »

If you are not certain of the kind of still you are running you are not ready to run a still .
Did you make any cuts ? What volume ? What was your criteria for blending these cuts , if you made them ?
You have a rig that can produce minimal results when you have learned enough here to run it .
I'm not trying to be mean . You simply have not done enough background research to be ready to distill .
Catch up on your homework and you will get more help because you will then know what questions to ask .
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acfixer69
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by acfixer69 »

Where to start is you are running a pot still and the temperature is not how they are run. The 5 gals thumper is too small but holding and running at a temperature at the boiler wouldn't even work the thump in to operation IMO. 5 ft worm is too short even if it's 1/2" as needs to be. good luck

AC
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by HDNB »

i usually only answer from experience but i don't have much with fruit. But i want to be helpful since i made you re-post this.

so... the fruit guys say a lot of flavour is in late heads. but the point of my post is to direct you to kiwistillers guide to cuts. it is here in the novice distillers stickies section and is the single most important info to learn, imho.

from experience, the higher the abv, the less flavour but 110proof ain't very strong and it doesn't read like you made cuts...so i'd suggest the wine didn't have much flavour going into the still.

and wtf is FFS? inquiring minds want to know.
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NickTN101
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by NickTN101 »

Look I obviously mad the wrong decision joining this forum to get my answers. I understand that how you distill you research everything and all that to get it exact but I have never had internet to do so until now and I am using a family members to do the little I am just to find out why I don't have flavor in my shine. If there was people around me to ask to figure it out I would but the only person I knew is not alive anymore. I cant just sit on here for hours researching everything. The still I have is the type ive always seen and always used and I am just having a problem that I cant figure out so I figured I could join this thing and ask if someone has had the same problem where maybe the could tell me. I am sorry for coming in here asking without all the knowledge of everything but I figured everyone had to start somewhere. and to the ones trying to help I just know the wine I have is what I have made for years that someone taught me and it is a sweet muscidine wine with about 12 percent alc. I pour the mash in heat it to about 180-200 and let it run. I get rid of the head and keep the rest and it runs until it stops dripping and then that's what I have. I could be completely wrong I'm just trying to figure it out without spending my time looking through every thread or everything I find on google. Ive got hundreds of people here who do it which I have never been able to ask so I am asking and maybe someone will know why its happening cause I am new and do not know
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by NickTN101 »

acfixer69 wrote:Where to start is you are running a pot still and the temperature is not how they are run. The 5 gals thumper is too small but holding and running at a temperature at the boiler wouldn't even work the thump in to operation IMO. 5 ft worm is too short even if it's 1/2" as needs to be. good luck

AC
So you are saying the temp isnt how a pot still runs? and my thumper is running a temp that is the same as my boiler? what do I need to do to fix this and I will go to town tomorrow and get a longer worm and bigger pot to put the worm in. It gets a constant flow of water from my spring creek that fills up and drains out the top so its always getting cool water. Do I need a bigger thumper or a different one?
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NickTN101
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by NickTN101 »

HDNB wrote:i usually only answer from experience but i don't have much with fruit. But i want to be helpful since i made you re-post this.

so... the fruit guys say a lot of flavour is in late heads. but the point of my post is to direct you to kiwistillers guide to cuts. it is here in the novice distillers stickies section and is the single most important info to learn, imho.

from experience, the higher the abv, the less flavour but 110proof ain't very strong and it doesn't read like you made cuts...so i'd suggest the wine didn't have much flavour going into the still.

and wtf is FFS? inquiring minds want to know.
Thank you I will read the Kiwistilers guide to cuts now. And I can taste the muscidine pretty good in the wine but maybe I need to add more is what you are suggesting? I can try
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Re: Having no flavor?

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NickTN101 wrote:Look I obviously mad the wrong decision joining this forum to get my answers. I understand that how you distill you research everything and all that to get it exact but I have never had internet to do so until now and I am using a family members to do the little I am just to find out why I don't have flavor in my shine. If there was people around me to ask to figure it out I would but the only person I knew is not alive anymore. I cant just sit on here for hours researching everything. The still I have is the type ive always seen and always used and I am just having a problem that I cant figure out so I figured I could join this thing and ask if someone has had the same problem where maybe the could tell me. I am sorry for coming in here asking without all the knowledge of everything but I figured everyone had to start somewhere. and to the ones trying to help I just know the wine I have is what I have made for years that someone taught me and it is a sweet muscidine wine with about 12 percent alc. I pour the mash in heat it to about 180-200 and let it run. I get rid of the head and keep the rest and it runs until it stops dripping and then that's what I have. I could be completely wrong I'm just trying to figure it out without spending my time looking through every thread or everything I find on google. Ive got hundreds of people here who do it which I have never been able to ask so I am asking and maybe someone will know why its happening cause I am new and do not know
actually, you made the right decision joining here. Everything you need to know is right here but there is no way to short cut the learning curve.

the majority of the people who take time to read newbie posts and donate their time to help said newbies, expect that you have done some due diligence (and talking about running a pot still by temperature is a dead give away that you have read nothing on the topic)

learn this forum and you will learn how to make the finest liquor you could ever want. the HD google function at the top of the page will help, cranky's spoonfeeding tips in novice will help. You gotta expect about 4-6 weeks of reading to learn enough not to kill yourself or others with poisons, fires and explosions. collectively, we all wish for you to slow down and learn what you need to know, before you need to know it. and to quote yet another member here, the hardest thing to put in a bottle of whiskey is patience.
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NZChris
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by NZChris »

Grape flavors are strongest at both ends of the distillation, but because I don't understand your description I don't know what you could have done wrong.

Except for the obvious one, of course, trying to run a pot still by making decisions based on a thermometer reading (and that is probably in the wrong position anyway). Tape over your thermometers and run it from the size of the output stream.

I've run a lot of brandy since I did my research before the internet & forums existed and never used a thumper. I don't think it is the best tool for the job, so I use a pot still and run it twice the same way Cognac distillers do. I've never had a problem packing in lots of flavor.
NickTN101
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by NickTN101 »

NZChris wrote:Grape flavors are strongest at both ends of the distillation, but because I don't understand your description I don't know what you could have done wrong.

Except for the obvious one, of course, trying to run a pot still by making decisions based on a thermometer reading (and that is probably in the wrong position anyway). Tape over your thermometers and run it from the size of the output stream.

I've run a lot of brandy since I did my research before the internet & forums existed and never used a thumper. I don't think it is the best tool for the job, so I use a pot still and run it twice the same way Cognac distillers do. I've never had a problem packing in lots of flavor.
Okay so don't worry about temp and when I run it from the size of the output stream what do I need to go off of? Like a good solid stream is good stuff and dripping isn't or what exactly do you mean? and also your saying I should lose the thumper and just go straight from the still to the worm?
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by NickTN101 »

HDNB Thank you and ever chance I get to get on here I will because just from being on here for a few hours I have learned a lot!
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by NickTN101 »

If there are any threads on here that I should deffenitly read for what I am doing could you post them where I can print them off while I have internet and bring them home with me to read? I am sorry if I am being needy I don't know I just wont be able to read them all tonight but if something as simple as the cuts thing I have been missing there is no telling what else and I thought a thumper was a necessity to catch all the trash but he is saying I don't need one so I am obviously missing a few things
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by still_stirrin »

NickTN101 wrote:Look I obviously mad the wrong decision joining this forum to get my answers...If there was people around me to ask to figure it out I would but the only person I knew is not alive anymore...so I figured I could join this thing and ask if someone has had the same problem where maybe the could tell me...I am sorry for coming in here asking without all the knowledge of everything...I could be completely wrong I'm just trying to figure it out without spending my time looking through every thread or everything I find on google. Ive got hundreds of people here who do it which I have never been able to ask so I am asking and maybe someone will know why its happening cause I am new and do not know...
OK, enough of the pity party.

If you have a question...go ahead and ask. But, don't take offense if the members here (who are legitimately trying to help) ask for more information. We don't know you or what you've made. We don't know your equipment or how experienced you are with it. If you want answers, then you've got to provide the background information.
NickTN101 wrote:...it is a sweet muscidine wine with about 12 percent alc. I pour the mash in heat it to about 180-200 and let it run. I get rid of the head and keep the rest and it runs until it stops dripping and then that's what I have...
First observation (from the limited data you've provided) is that you have a fruit wash from a sweet wine and it has a marginally high alcohol content most likely from a high starting gravity (brix). Since it finished sweet, I deduce that it didn't really consume all of the fermentable sugars, most likely because your yeast was not healthy or you had inadequate nutrients to keep it active. Often wine fermenters add acid blend to activate fermentation for fruit must and that possibly could have resulted in a very low pH causing the yeast to terminate early, again resulting in a sweet finishing wine with remaining sugars.

Regardless of the ferment (not "technically" a mash...rather a must), operating your still, a simple potstill by your description, should give you a nice brandy in the end. But, how you run the still will affect the flavors you collect. Running hot will push heads into the hearts and hearts (and heads) into tails.

But you should know (if you are familiar with still operations) that the product is not controlled by the temperature of the boil. The heat input controls the "rate" of the boil and the alcohol content (in the wash) determines the temperature that the vapor comes off the still. So, how you run your still will affect what you get from it, specifically how the flavors of the alcohol and other high volatile constituents blend in the product condenser (worm, in your case).

Finally, when you pulled your heads, how much did you discard? How did you determine where your "heads cut" should be made? Often with fruit washes (wines) the fruit flavors are esters and those have a higher volatility than ethanol, meaning...keeping some of the late heads will increase the fruit flavor in the product. Again, without more details of the measures it is difficult to help troubleshoot your dilemma.

But rest assured, there is a world of knowledge on this site. If you learn how to use it, you will benefit from the compendium of knowledge. But we strongly urge new members to due diligence and read the mandatory reading. Knowledge is the foundation of our hobby and it is encouraged. And don't be surprised if during your reading you find the answers to your questions....and questions you haven't even asked. You see....you're far from the first new member here. Most all questions have been asked and answered multiple times already. Start with Cranky's Spoon Feed threads that I have hot-linked in my signature.

To help you search the site for info, there is a very useful tool: HDGoogle search. I have a hotlink in my signature line which will teach you how to use it. It will give you a list of threads pertaining to the subject you search.

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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by NZChris »

I did my research by finding out as much as I could about how the best producers made what I wanted to make, then worked backwards through the equipment and processes needed, so that I knew what I had to do to make it happen.

I still do that, but it's easier now because I don't have to physically trawl though university libraries to find what I want. We have this thing called the interweb and it has search engines, online book archives, material spec. PDFs from manufacturers, etc..
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Re: Having no flavor?

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Well I do wish that I had the Interweb to use everyday to research what I need but I don't. Thanks for all yalls help.. Well of few of yall anyways. Ill figure it out eventually!
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by Oldvine Zin »

NickTN101 wrote:Well I do wish that I had the Interweb to use everyday to research what I need but I don't. Thanks for all yalls help.. Well of few of yall anyways. Ill figure it out eventually!
It's not about havin 24 hour 7 intrawebs access - it's the willing to learn attitude that will take you far. I'm only a couple of years into this hobby and still learn something new every day.
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by HDNB »

Oldvine Zin wrote:
NickTN101 wrote:Well I do wish that I had the Interweb to use everyday to research what I need but I don't. Thanks for all yalls help.. Well of few of yall anyways. Ill figure it out eventually!
It's not about havin 24 hour 7 intrawebs access - it's the willing to learn attitude that will take you far. I'm only a couple of years into this hobby and still learn something new every day.
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fak. i do multiple runs a week and learn something damn near every time. failed on about 6 ferments this year alone and just found out that procaps smear the shit out AG and the taking the insulation of the top of my still reduces smearing too! I just hope i live long enough to learn as much as some of these guys have forgotten (dnder, goose eye...etc...etc)
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by The Baker »

still_stirrin said, "you have a fruit wash from a sweet wine and it has a marginally high alcohol content most likely from a high starting gravity (brix). Since it finished sweet, I deduce that it didn't really consume all of the fermentable sugars."

Now that is interesting.

I have just got my (little pot) still going after several years. And I am going through the wine bottle leavings and miscellaneous spirits and trying to work out what to do with them to get something usable and hopefully good to drink.
I have maybe ten litres of sweet wine leavings; instead of distilling it I will put it into a partly fermented must, and get the benefit of that sugar.

Thanks,

Geoff
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Re: Having no flavor?

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NickTN101 wrote:Okay so don't worry about temp and when I run it from the size of the output stream what do I need to go off of? Like a good solid stream is good stuff and dripping isn't or what exactly do you mean? and also your saying I should lose the thumper and just go straight from the still to the worm?
You want enough heat to produce a steady pencil-lead sized stream. Forget thermometer readings. Pump it!
The thumper needs to be ⅓ to ½ the size of your boiler, otherwise remove it from the operation.
Read up on making cuts here.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by NZChris »

Still Life wrote:You want enough heat to produce a steady pencil-lead sized stream.
Can you safely get that sized stream out of a 3/8" worm?
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by Kareltje »

As long as the stream is not hotter than about 40 dgr C.
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by skow69 »

FFS. For Fuck's Sake?
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by Pikey »

Ok Nick so now I understand some of your frustration. You don't have internet and can only get access away from home, so time is limited - right ?

We have to assume you have a pot still as you don't mention any other form of cooling water than your tub with the worm.

You're making the same mistakes we all make at the start - thinking that alcohol boils lower than water so just set the temperature and you'll get all the alcohol out - right ?

Yes I did that and got this at 86 C :
Edit:
Temp control output.jpg
Then I wondered why I was not getting the alcohol out that I though was in there from my starting proof and just tried letting the temperature just rise as it wanted to - (right up to 100C - 212 F )

And I got this
no temp control.jpg
I do not have a thumper as yet, so those are all without the thumper. It tastes fine and you can bring the thumper in later.

Here is a thread we're making at the moment, which is as good as any I think on thumpers - print that and take it home.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=66967

You're getting something out, so you must be doing something right 8)

Here's a picture of what I expect product stream wise.
discharge resize.jpg
As to your lack of flavour , Are you putting Water in the thumper ? that will tend to lower your flavour. When you've read the thumper thread, Try putting wine in it next time you use it

Come back and let us know how it goes.

atb

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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by zapata »

The Baker wrote: I have maybe ten litres of sweet wine leavings; instead of distilling it I will put it into a partly fermented must, and get the benefit of that sugar.
Geoff
Keep in mind that sweet wines may have been "stabilized" to kill the yeast and keep them from fermenting the remaining sugar. Which means they may kill your yeast if you try adding them to fermenting must. *might being the key word, since you will be diluting the stabilizers, so maybe it wont hurt the yeast, or maybe it will. Safer to add them to a recently finished must, that way if it kills the yeast you havent lost anything.
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Re: Having no flavor?

Post by The Baker »

Thanks, Zapata.

Geoff
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