Hi all - I need some help! I've made 2 batches of corn / rye mix whiskey and finally have enough to fill my new 3 liter barrel. My goal is to make a good bourbon - and I have read very conflicting things about how to age in small barrels.
The two conflicting statements are below - one says to keep in new barrel for a short time - the other says to keep in new barrel for a long time.....
1. New barrels will over-oak so keep the bourbon in the barrel just for a few week - tasting frequency to get to your taste - then remove to prevent smokey flavor.
2. Bourbon in barrels age over time & breathing is critical. Thus - keep the bourbon in the barrel for a long time (a year even) - as flavors get better, and the bourbon can't breathe once you put it in a mason jar.
HELP! I have spent a long time to get enough to fill the 3 liter barrel - so don't want to screw it up!
thanks for any help - even if just the appropriate place to post this.
well...fixing under oaking is easier than fixing over oaking
i'd sample frequently and stop when you like it. In my opinion smokeyness comes from heavy char and comes over quickly dissipating with time. Color too comes fast, the good flavours take time.
i don't have a lot of practical experience with smaller barrels so i'll stop there. Just sticks and big barrels, at about the same sq/in/gallon ratio. I made an essence for blending once with heavy charred cubes 5 kg in 30L of rye...undrinkable smokey syrup after 6 months...but a little splash in some new make and into a 53 sq inch/gallon oak sticks/barrel made a really nice complex whiskey in a very short period of time (6 months) vs about what i'd call a 2- 2.5 year equivalent of putting new make in a barrel without the essence.
Let's say I keep the bourbon in the barrel for 3-4 weeks as the PDF said - I then put it in a mason jar. Will it continue to develop complex character over time in the mason jar? I didn't think it would since it can't breath and won't have access to wood any more. So do i put lightly toasted wood in the mason jars to let it sit over time? Thank you all for the help!!
This is an active area of discussion for small-scale distillers. This forum has a bazillion threads about the problem. There is no easy solution to your dilemma.
The dilemma is this: you want oak, you want oxygenation/transpiration, you want time, you want an appropriate loss rate, and you want small-scale. But you can't have all four with a 3-liter barrel and get the results you expect. If you go with a small barrel and a long time, you get too much oak and might lose too much of your spirit. If you go with a short time, you get too little oxygenation/maturation and probably unbalanced oak flavors. And so on.
Der Wo has a method of aging in glass with oak and a porous lid that allows for enough transpiration to properly mature the spirit. (I don't have a link. Maybe he'll come around and comment or you could search for it.) I have another, the Badmotivator Barrel, which you can find in my signature.
Sorry to be a downer about the small barrels. I hope this helps in some small way.
Badmotivator wrote:Der Wo has a method of aging in glass with oak and a porous lid that allows for enough transpiration to properly mature the spirit...
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
Thanks - this is perfect - exactly the dilemma I am facing and a good approach to use. I'm assuming this is make it yourself kinda solution per the bain-marie barrel post. I have been very disappointed in my attempts at bourbon so far - toasted chips / essence / sticks.... that's why I got the barrel - but couldn't figure out the math between oaking and aging.
There was another post that looks like it was deleted - that showed glass carboys with cork lids. Does that ring a bell for anyone - looked like something i could buy and not build.
Next week several of us that blended a selection of cuts a year ago that has lived on oak from day #1 may have more insight . Many of us will be sampling that same mix this coming weekend .
I'm sure that opinions will be as varied as the individuals doing the tasting .
The big guys have to maintain a standard level by what ever means . We only need to suit ourselves .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
about a month ago i pulled some 6 mo. old COBB from a 15 gallon SS barrel i thought was (as BadMo sez) "unbalanced" it was nice color a bit spicy from the oak (medium toast euro oak chips added) and smokey from my usual over-charred chunks. Nice vanillin nose and caramel/coffee/toffee notes...but it was a dry finish... like astringent dry.
recalling a thread about some guy's nuclear reactor whiskey machine that transports booze through time...one of the things they talked about was high intensity light in the reactor to mimic what the sun does to wood over time ("aging") the idea came to this guy as he looked at his deck boards i guess.
To the point: (sorry) i put two bottles on a south window sill for two days and the oak balanced out. i took one off, left the other there...couple days ago (after a month or so) i didn't notice any difference between the two...but there was a noticeable improvement over the out of the barrel make without the sun tan.
so yeah, i think something happens in the glass. not much, but something.
Instead of trying to age in glass with the bad motivator or Der Wo approach - what if I just got an uncharred barrel? I could leave it in my 3 liter charred barrel for a few months, then move to an untoasted / uncharred barrel.
I would not have the over-oak problem - I would get the breathing - I could just let it season with time. I realize even raw wood would impart some flavor. Has anyone tried this??
Truckinbutch - let me know how your 1 year old barrel run works.
Badmotivator wrote:This is an active area of discussion for small-scale distillers. This forum has a bazillion threads about the problem. There is no easy solution to your dilemma.
The dilemma is this: you want oak, you want oxygenation/transpiration, you want time, you want an appropriate loss rate, and you want small-scale. But you can't have all four with a 3-liter barrel
Don't forget, beautiful amber color, that make five
It's all about surface area. Search for the charts on volume to surface area for containers. Some use sticks and cubes instead of barrels and it's the same.
Safest way is to every couple of months you taste a bit. Six months might be perfect while a year is over oaked. If that happens you just need to dilute with some new stuff. All easy to solve. No stress.
Truckinbutch - let me know how your 1 year old barrel run works.
We will . We blended and jarred a gallon last year . A half gallon survived for the tasting . I expect that all the folks that get here will have an opinion on that jar .
If you ain't the lead dog in the team , the scenery never changes . Ga Flatwoods made my avatar and I want to thank him for that .
Don't drink water , fish fornicate in it .
MarvinSutton wrote:Instead of trying to age in glass with the bad motivator or Der Wo approach - what if I just got an uncharred barrel? I could leave it in my 3 liter charred barrel for a few months, then move to an untoasted / uncharred barrel.
I would not have the over-oak problem - I would get the breathing - I could just let it season with time. I realize even raw wood would impart some flavor. Has anyone tried this??
An uncharred barrel will give strong off-flavors to the whiskey. You could try it with sticks first. Put a little piece of raw wood in a small jar new make.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
This chart is awesome I have used a number of 3 liter barrels and as you can see it says 3 months best whiskey I have made so far spent three months in a 3 l Barrel
I've never used a barrel, but i do have a fair amount of demijohns, I've never stopped aging and bottled a whole demi, I pull off a bottle at the time and let the rest sit and age some more. my oldest is 2 years old and still no signs of overoaking
Swedish Pride wrote:I've never used a barrel, but i do have a fair amount of demijohns, I've never stopped aging and bottled a whole demi, I pull off a bottle at the time and let the rest sit and age some more. my oldest is 2 years old and still no signs of overoaking
+1
in "normal" amounts, i like aging this way too it's like a solera method. never had any problem with over oaking. the only thing over oaked is that essence i mentioned...but that was like six inches of burnt wood in the bottom of a drum, 30L of rye just barely covered that much wood.
Hi all - my small barrel is now 2 months old. I took a quick taste of it yesterday. The initial taste is quite harsh - but the finish is fantastic - i can taste the rye (20% of grain) and I can taste the oaking. very nice.
I have heard that a filter (Pur or Zero) will take that harshness out - but won't it also take my flavor? Would glycerin help to lower the up front harshness / burning? I don't know the proof today - but it was barreled at 125 proof. I think I have the makings of something good here if we can figure that out. Maybe it just needs time to mellow out.
I plan to keep it a full 3 months before cutting and bottling.
Give it time ... it's not done yet... 3 months? if you don't like it at 3 months let it sit longer... however the angels enjoy more of it as time passes...
I got the 3 months from the chart above. fearful of over oaking the bourbon.
will the additional time remove the harshness? I remember watching "barley and hops' videos on YouTube saying you had to filter to get rid of the harshness - but i feel like that will get rid of all the flavor i worked so hard to create.
I will come back in another month thanks for the input.
I use 5ltr barrels and leave the whiskey in there for a few months, tasting as it goes along.
I tend to remove it from the barrels not because of over-oaking but because I am losing so damn much to the angels in the small barrel.
After a few months I put it in my Badmotovater BainMaries where it can both breathe a bit and get some oak, or,
use gallon jugs with homemade oak sticks and I open them up every week or so, give it a swirl and a breather (and a taste...).
Usually I do not screw the lids on, just set them on loose so the fruit flies dont get in.
Has been working well for me. I have a bourbon that folks are LOVING, including the distilleries that have sampled it.
So from the info in this thread I think you will do fine.
perfect. I will do that - thanks so much for the advice. I may do this on in a glass jugg and oak sticks but I see a badmotivator in my future. thanks for the help - this is the best forum for advice!
one of the tastiest bourbons I ever made was in a new 5L barrel. I put it in the barrel @ 120 proof, and left it in there for 6 months. I still think it could've gone a little longer, but it was really fine just the same.
NChooch
Practice safe distillin and keep your hobby under your hat.
) read about sticks:
