Power Option Opinions Sought

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Chixter
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Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Chixter »

Hi folks. I will be doing small runs of 5-6 gallon batches in this 8 gal pot still: https://brewhaus.com/pot-distiller-moon ... ct-reviews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I ordered it with an electric heating band, but frankly I've read the controllers for those bands suck, they overheat and melt plus they were discontinued or out of stock. I am also buying this for future mash preps: https://www.target.com/p/bayou-brew-equ ... A-52335962" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I will be operating indoors, in my well ventilated heated and cooled garage. I weld and run my propane forge in my garage with no issues and I have the required fire fighting equipment readily at hand. Due to the flammable nature of the distilling operation itself, I was at first preferring electric heat for my still (hence the band heater) but after reading the threads on electric posted here I come away with the impression that controlling heat input requires aftermarket controllers and such...ie; its not like I can just use a 1500w hotplate and control the heat with the setting knob.

So, I am thinking running the still on the Bayou gas setup, would be better albeit a tad more dangerous. In nice weather I can set up out back on my patio but as they say in G.O.T. Winter is coming.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Pikey »

Chixter wrote:
....... I come away with the impression that controlling heat input requires aftermarket controllers and such...ie; its not like I can just use a 1500w hotplate and control the heat with the setting knob.....
No you can't - the knob operates a bimetallic strip which switches the lectric on when it's cold and switches it OFF when it's up to temperature. This stops the flow of ditillate dead, until the ring cools down again. You can get some stuff out like this but it takes forever and drives you crazy !

The nice smooth flow from a power controlled heat source is a complete joy to run.

You can just run with your power band I believe - but any heat source run flat out for hours on end has a tendency to burn out.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by still_stirrin »

I have a propane burner for my mash kettle as well. Great for boiling up to 10 gallons of wort at a time. My kettle is a 15 gallon keg. It has decades of use already. No changes necessary.

But for my still boiler, I use two internal 4.5kW electric elements although I run them on 120VAC. So it gives me roughly 2.2kW of heat input when heating a wash. Both elements are controlled by separate triac controlled circuits (built similar to Rad's controller...search the Electrical Accessories forum). The electric power gives you very good control over heat input so you can effectively adjust it as needed throughout the run to keep your still in optimum running condition.

I think the internal elements are much better than external band heaters too. Only concern (not a big one really) is that the wash should be cleared well before running it. This is less of a problem for me because I use LWD elements and run them on 1/2 power, so the liklihood of scorching on the elments is insignificant. I don't worry about a little "cloudiness" when I siphon into the boiler.

In summary...you COULD use the big burner you've purchased for you mashing (and beer brewing). It'll work as the heat source for the boiler. But you'll likewise need to pay attention to clearing the wash before firing up so you won't scorch anything on the bottom of your boiler.

But, a caution to you when running for hours on end in the garage when using a propane burner...CO2 and exhaust gas build up can become lethal before you know it. Be careful.

Be safe, responsible, and discrete.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Truckinbutch »

All good advice . I have no experience with electric heaters . Started with propane with Bayou Classic burners and am still happy with them . Using a pot still and thumper I put the clear mash in the boiler and cloudy/sludgy mash in the thumper . I ventilate my shop with a 20" exhaust fan that runs constantly .
A 'top of the line' CO monitor lives within arm's reach of me when there is a fire lit .
This system has been working well for me .
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Chixter »

still_stirrin wrote:CO2 and exhaust gas build up can become lethal before you know it.
Ya SS very true. When I run my 3 burner propane forge, I have my side door wide open. Brewhause has told me that they don't sell the band controller anymore because it was crap. They are looking for something else. I think I'll just wire up a PID and plug the band heater into that and see how it goes. It's a small still, a 1500w band should not be a problem hopefully a PID can give me the control I need. My preference is electric Jesus I use enough propane for that forge...I'll need to buy stock in MGS.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Mikey-moo »

Chixter wrote:
still_stirrin wrote:CO2 and exhaust gas build up can become lethal before you know it.
Ya SS very true. When I run my 3 burner propane forge, I have my side door wide open. Brewhause has told me that they don't sell the band controller anymore because it was crap. They are looking for something else. I think I'll just wire up a PID and plug the band heater into that and see how it goes. It's a small still, a 1500w band should not be a problem hopefully a PID can give me the control I need. My preference is electric Jesus I use enough propane for that forge...I'll need to buy stock in MGS.
PID has the same problem as the cheap hot plate you mentioned earlier - it's on full blast up to temp x then off until the temp drops again. That's not what you want... you want power all the time, sometimes full power, sometimes half power, but never no power because power in = vapour out.

Have you thought about induction?
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Pikey »

What does PID mean ? I see it mentioned always as a temperature controller.

You can't run a pot still by temperature.

You need a stead and controlled consistent power input. Adjustable is good ! :)
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Chixter »

Mikey-moo wrote:PID has the same problem as the cheap hot plate you mentioned earlier - it's on full blast up to temp x then off until the temp drops again. That's not what you want... you want power all the time, sometimes full power, sometimes half power, but never no power because power in = vapour out.

Have you thought about induction?
Kind of on/off....a bit more precise though and the lag time is shortened considerably than lets say....if I was turning on/off my heater band manually based on what I observed coming out. But I get it. Linear control is king. I don't know if induction will work good with a stainless pot. I asked Brewhause of the stainless alloy they use, 303, 314, etc.....so far, crickets. So IDK if it will work with induction, I have read some here use induction with very good results. I gotta dig further into that. Perhaps the first few runs will be the 'old fashioned' way, over easily controlled flame. If this distilling project lights me up maybe its worthwhile to invest in a grainfather or something similar. For the entry foray, I want to keep it as simple as possible.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Chixter »

Pikey wrote:What does PID mean ?
You are not running the still by temperature per se. Proportional Integral Differential influence on this device allows for very minute adjustments, yes using on/off but controlled with an integrated circuit and integrated relay. They are used widely in manufacturing processes where minute temperature adjustments are necessary for the completion of a final product. The food and beverage industry uses them widely. Think about a car's cruise control...you set it to 60mhp. Based on sensors measuring grade, wind resistance, load, etc the vehicle via it's computer constantly makes minute adjustments to the engine combustion...far more accurately than the driver ever could, sometimes several per second. They have the ability to sense and then calculate the amount of {fuel, heat, electrical pixies} whatever to keep it there. The dreaded "on/off" cycle is shortened to a large degree, almost pulsed one can say, based on the input from the sensor which is placed at the head of the column. Now when applied to distilling as far as I can see it, one is using vapor temps only as a rough guide....you are still feelin yer pipes and tastin and smellin yer goo, the trick is to know when to bump the setpoint up as the distilling process unfolds. In a hobby such as this one, set-ups are not sophisticated enough for hands off operation, say at a Seagrams plant, but with practice can achieve the smooth transition of heat to the baylin' pot. Thats the theory anyway. One can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow. Interestingly enough, this whole concept was developed by watching a ships helmsman make minute adjustments to the steering based on wind and waves to keep on course.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by still_stirrin »

Well Chixter,

Here's a "little " reading for you to help solve your dilema. Grap a cup of coffee and dig in:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =85&t=3342

Everything's been asked...and answered...before. You just gotta' reach for it.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Pikey »

Chixter wrote:
Pikey wrote:What does PID mean ?
You are not running the still by temperature per se. Proportional Integral Differential influence on this device allows for very minute adjustments, yes using on/off but controlled with an integrated circuit and integrated relay. They are used widely in manufacturing processes where minute temperature adjustments are necessary for the completion of a final product. ................
Go for it Chixter :)

YOU CANNOT RUN A POT STILL BY TEMPERATURE :roll:

but please do try :lol: :lol:

[Edit - Differential - Integration ????????? - Oposites N'Est ce pas ??]
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Chixter »

Pikey wrote:YOU CANNOT RUN A POT STILL BY TEMPERATURE
I believe that. And I wont be I assure you.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Chixter »

still_stirrin wrote:Everything's been asked...and answered...before. You just gotta' reach for it.
Yes for several hours I read the thread that was started in 2006. When we get to this decade at least, it seems the triac type of circuit is the way to be able to control CONSTANT power to heating elements. The main take away I get is that 11 years after this discovery, there is still no commercial developer of a product that can effectively and smoothly control electric heat. It is up to us to glean the know how by experimentation. Perhaps that is why units like the Grainfather are so expensive. The engineering is built into them. With that said, I have enough on my plate to learn the aspects of distilling something good. While wiring up components for specific purposes is not foreign to me, I will refrain from experimentation with devices that may or may not work as intended. I will spend the $25 and 20 minutes of time putting a PID together. I will run trials during my cleaning runs with sugar wash using both the band/PID and the propane burner see how both ways go. If I get into this distilling hobby, then I can decide on which type of bigger/better equipment would be good for me.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by masonsjax »

PID (Proportional Integral Derivative) do not work for running a still unless you use manual mode, which defeats the purpose of a PID. You can try if you want, but a zillion people before you thought the same thing and guess what, it still doesn't work because...
Pikey wrote:YOU CANNOT RUN A POT STILL BY TEMPERATURE
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by still_stirrin »

Chixter wrote:...The main take away I get is that 11 years after this discovery, there is still no commercial developer of a product that can effectively and smoothly control electric heat.
Well, obviously you haven't read enough yet. There ARE commercial products available in quite a compact configuration to solve our requirements.

Here's just one: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_ ... cts_id=353" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Two components (no PiD needed) but you must use a heatsink too for the SSV...not included. The 40 amp rating is plenty capable for up to a 5.5kW element.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

I would suggest that the best way to run a pot still is with a wetware neural network. This has been called "manumation" vs "automation"
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Pikey »

They're all over ebay Chixter - search "10000 power speed controller" You want one rated at least twicw your wattage for continuous use. :)
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Chixter »

There is a plethora of archaeological evidence and historical data that demonstrates human beings have been producing ethanol from fermented grains via distillation for a very long time. Much of it taking place long before SSR's, voltage regulators, PIDs, even fuel gasses were conceptualized. For the sake of simplicity and with deep gratitude to this forum for the information I have obtained, I have made the decision to use my propane burner to heat the still boiler. At least for the beginning of this venture. Depending on the outcome of my initial efforts, I will revisit this electric concept again with my newly acquired knowledge. I have noticed that most of the electric boiler operators here, some with pretty large boilers, use internal heating elements. The unit I have purchased does not have this option. It would be little trouble for me to make the necessary modifications should the need arise.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by still_stirrin »

Chixter wrote:...I have noticed that most of the electric boiler operators here, some with pretty large boilers, use internal heating elements. The unit I have purchased does not have this option. It would be little trouble for me to make the necessary modifications should the need arise.
This points to the classic "newbie" shortfall..."pulling the trigger" prior to fully vetting the requirements. If the desire to operate the still inside the house was a "potential" requirement, and you "knew" this up front, choosing a solution which could be electrically heated would have opened more options to you. And even if the internal element was, and is the solution most common to hobbiest distillers, then you would have looked into those options as well.

But hindsight, being 20/20, says that you will need to adapt your solution to meet your requirements (at least in the interim). Perhaps at some point you will add tools to your toolset which will solve the "indoor operations" requirement. But until then, using what you have will teach you some of the key processes and give you better insight to pitfalls and advantages of one solution or another...help you know what you don't know you don't know (yet).

The key advice is to FULLY understand ALL of the requirements before deciding on one solution or another. It will be more operationally effective and likely more cost effective as well. Investing in the "right tool for the job" will give you more control over your process and product, even if the capital investment is greater. In the long run, you will be more satisfied and rewarded.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

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still_stirrin wrote:This points to the classic "newbie" shortfall..."pulling the trigger" prior to fully vetting the requirements.
Want to know something even funnier? The unit I bought is configured to order....I could have had a port and plug for future element installation if I wanted it....I dont even recall if there was an upcharge for that! My interest in electric was motivated more by reading how much gas some of these guys go through more than safety. I don't have a requirement for house operation. I operate in a climate controlled 30x40 detached garage/shop. What you say is true but thats true of all things. I had a good friend who researched everything almost to death. While researching the type of re-loader that would meet his needs, 2 years past and he could have made thousands of rounds of ammo. But he wanted to avoid the newbie shortfall. He finally purchased his equipment, got it set up just right and 4 days later died in a work related accident.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by still_stirrin »

Chixter wrote:...He finally purchased his equipment...got it set up just right...and 4 days later died in a work related accident.
Didja' snag his reloader after the wake? Hope he had the right sized dies... :esurprised:
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

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still_stirrin wrote:Didja' snag his reloader after the wake? Hope he had the right sized dies..
Wish he would have bequeathed it to me...top model automated Dillon, with tooling for 19 different calibers, rifle and pistol. Alright. enough reading and intranet whappin. I gotta get 10 gals of sugar wash going. I have equipment arriving on monday and it needs to be cleaned.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by jon1163 »

I ran my first still on the stove top and it was a real pain. Then I got a different still and moved it to a propane heater which was a lot easier to run but still an open flame. If you want to distill indoors then electric heating is a must in my opinion. I now have an electric element and a aftermarket controller. It makes it a pure joy to run but a little bit tough on 110 to run as a reflux
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Chixter »

jon1163 wrote: I now have an electric element and a aftermarket controller.
What are you using sir (element, controller)? I will be running a SS 8 gallon pot still. I would prefer electric for economic as well as safety reasons.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by jon1163 »

Chixter wrote:
jon1163 wrote: I now have an electric element and a aftermarket controller.
What are you using sir (element, controller)? I will be running a SS 8 gallon pot still. I would prefer electric for economic as well as safety reasons.
I'm using this set up from mile high.

https://milehidistilling.com/product-ca ... s-burners/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by jon1163 »

jon1163 wrote:
Chixter wrote:
jon1163 wrote: I now have an electric element and a aftermarket controller.
What are you using sir (element, controller)? I will be running a SS 8 gallon pot still. I would prefer electric for economic as well as safety reasons.
I'm using this set up from mile high.

https://milehidistilling.com/product-ca ... s-burners/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
The first on the list that is
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by raketemensch »

I've got nothing at all against propane (and propane accessories), but man I love just plugging in and firing up. Barring a huge storm, you never run out of electricity, and I like the extra safety.

If you can run 220v to where you'll be setting up, even better. It's a bit of extra research and fiddling, but I wouldn't give it up for a second.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Chixter »

Thanks for all the input. Since the electric heating band worked so good on my vinegar steam, just not controllable for real distilling, I just ordered this from Mile High...https://milehidistilling.com/product/st ... 2000-watt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

After talking to them it appears I can plug the 1500w band heater into this controller to adjust heat output.

Hopefully this will give me the option of safer indoor operation when the weather gets nasty.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by markieb »

hi chixter,
being relatively new to this myself too i sought advice and other peoples experiences from flame to electric and i bit the bullet,i brought a 15gallon keg and went with a 3" bokakob design with a 4w internal element and a 10,000w dimmer control (think its the same as pikey placed up from ebay) i use £3 electric per run (measured by a smart meter) and the run takes me approxamately 4 hours for 5.5litres of neutral @93% abv - 80%abv.
its easy to do i even made my own element holder from some 28mm or 22mm copper tube and a small peice of flat copper plate and soldered it together then soldered it onto the side of the keg just off the bottom rim weld i used a step bit drill bit and i couldnt be happier (im frickin useless with tools usually).
i was a little sceptical and wanted to jump in head first to begin with but i took my time and glad i did my first neutral was a real hit my second was absolutely amazing (i used half a double concentrate tomato tube so 100g instead of 200g) and the flavour is tasteless the hang over is non existant the alcohol is stacking in my cupboard but going down pretty fast too :lol: i call my shine daddies happy juice i use to be a bad drunk nasty fighting argue over anything but this stuff WOW this stuff is a whole new level and has made me into a happy drunk i smile with every glass this stuff should be made available the world over instead of that crap they sell in shops!!!!!trust me when i say once you have made you first you will be wanting to make alot more.dont go mad with your money go big build first and saves double/triple spending thats the advice hounddog gave me and im very glad he did.
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Re: Power Option Opinions Sought

Post by Pikey »

Hi Markieb - I've been fighting against "smart meters" 'cos they'll show periods of "Excessive useage" how do you find them ?
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