building a boka still for whiskey

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Bourbonizer
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building a boka still for whiskey

Post by Bourbonizer »

TLDR up front: I'd like to make a 3 inch boka with 2' of packing to make whiskey by running it at 89-90% alcohol for the duration of the run. is 2' of packing a good starting place for this? Can you run a still at a reflux ratio of less than 1?

Long form:

I've run a 5 gallon pot still to make a reasonable drink with ujssm and I'm looking to upgrade to something that I can circumvent the stripping process. The way I see it is like this:
  • I run my pot still to strip by running it until the total distillate is about 30% alcohol, this takes about 65% of the water out of the wash
  • I then run 3 batches of low wines and make cuts to get a product around 80% alcohol before diluting it, this takes out roughly 60% of the remaining water out of the low wines
  • by my math that means i'm taking roughly 86% of the water out of the mash, meaning to do this in one run I could (by my math) run at around 89% alc on a boka and get similar results.
Odin's guide to making pure whiskey put the idea in my head, but I think de-tuning a bit might make a flavorful distillate without an 8 hour day. The other reason I'd like to upgrade is the increased control in cuts and more consistent product with a little less variability in the blending. If i cut at certain temperatures I should get a reasonably consistent product each time with a lot less wiggle room in the tasting and blending... Right?

According to the reflux calculator running a .6m column can produce 92.6% with a reflux ratio of 5 (which is pretty slow at 150ml in 15 minutes). So running it super slow for fores, and then opening it up to 89-90% and holding it there for the rest of the run means a 3 hour (or so) session with the still. But this means dropping the reflux ratio below 1, is that even possible? Since I'm now taking more than I'm refluxing? or is that does that just mean I need for every 1.25ml of condensate I'm letting .25ml fall back into the column?

The extra long form
  • The plan for first run is to compress 150ml of foreshots, separate the rest of the run (adjusting reflux to run at 89-90%) into jars by temperature or 500ml (whichever is smaller), making notes on when the cuts were made,then saving feints for use in the next run.
  • The second run includes the feints from the first and I'd like to separate heads into thirds, the first half, then the remaining heads into early and late heads for blending, and once I hit the hearts temperature liked on the first run begin collecting. stop at my tails cut and divide them up the same as I did with the heads. Early, middle, compressed late. The reason for the special treatment of tails and heads is to better find what temperature I want to make those cuts at or how much volume I want to bleed over into hearts if temperature proves a crappy metric for my cuts.
  • Third run is a lot like the second, just moving zeroing in on the cuts I like based on temperatures and volumes I recorded in the previous two runs.
Is this a reasonable plan or does this seem like a waste of copper?
zapata
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by zapata »

I've done similar runs once or twice. Harry used to do it and walked me through it back in the day. So yes it is possible. Personally I would aim to target your oaking strength so you don't have to water down. I think when I came closest to that I had to increase power a bit in addition to manipulating reflux after stripping heads slowly at high RR.

Yes you can run a rr less than 1. Take 1 unit of product for each .5 unit refluxed. Easy peasy with a LM still like a boka assuming a quality valve. Not doable in most VM stills.

Is it a waste of copper? No, especially if you want to make neutral too (with a column extension from your proposed 2'). If you don't care about neutral, a flute is such a proven single run whiskey machine that it would be hard for me to justify a 3" bok just for whiskey. You will also have tons of support and guidance with a flute whereas it seems very few run a bok the way you propose.
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der wo
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by der wo »

I use a 2" LM with 50cm packing for Whiskey. The still must be able to obtain 0% reflux 100% output. You need this for the first part of the hearts. For that the diameters of the product lines and the inner diameter of the valve must be not too small.
But why 89-90%? This is very clean for Whiskey. I would target something around 70%.

I do:
- 100% reflux for a few minutes
- 1-2 drops per second fores
- 2-4 drops per seconds heads. This step I skip when I age in a barrel or slightly open jar.
- I open the valve 100% and fill a few small jars (either heads or hearts)
- I collect hearts at 100% output. The abv drops slowly. By tasting during the run I decide for a good abv/temp and hold it there by controling the valve until the end of the run.
-Of course I start to collect jars again somwhere for the tails cut.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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bitter
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by bitter »

I have done both what der wo mentions and Odins method. It is true with odins method you still get flavor due to the smearing resulted from adding heads and taisl from previous runs. I find it make a bit light whiskey than the way der wo mentioned.. both are good depending what your after.

Odins method is closer to a Canadian whiskey than a Bourbon to me.

B
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by Bourbonizer »

zapata wrote:I've done similar runs once or twice. Harry used to do it and walked me through it back in the day. So yes it is possible. Personally I would aim to target your oaking strength so you don't have to water down. I think when I came closest to that I had to increase power a bit in addition to manipulating reflux after stripping heads slowly at high RR.
What would you consider oaking strength, seems like running all the way down at 60% means running wide open and almost no reflux.
Yes you can run a rr less than 1. Take 1 unit of product for each .5 unit refluxed. Easy peasy with a LM still like a boka assuming a quality valve. Not doable in most VM stills.

Is it a waste of copper? No, especially if you want to make neutral too (with a column extension from your proposed 2'). If you don't care about neutral, a flute is such a proven single run whiskey machine that it would be hard for me to justify a 3" bok just for whiskey. You will also have tons of support and guidance with a flute whereas it seems very few run a bok the way you propose.
Price, building ability, and space are keeping me from going to a flute still. With 4 theoretical plates on the proposed column (according to the calculator) is there a real difference besides speed?
der wo wrote:I use a 2" LM with 50cm packing for Whiskey. The still must be able to obtain 0% reflux 100% output. You need this for the first part of the hearts. For that the diameters of the product lines and the inner diameter of the valve must be not too small.
What size needle valve are you using? Why do you think this is a necessity?
But why 89-90%? This is very clean for Whiskey. I would target something around 70%.
I'd considered going as low as 70%, but the more I think about odin's success with the pure whiskey method, the more I thought 90 would be better. I had planned on doing a comparison over the course of several batches at different proofs to determine my ideal take-off strength, but I'm not convinced 90% is going to yield whiskey that tastes like grey goose. and if it does I can always re-distill I suppose.
I do:
- 100% reflux for a few minutes
- 1-2 drops per second fores
- 2-4 drops per seconds heads. This step I skip when I age in a barrel or slightly open jar.
- I open the valve 100% and fill a few small jars (either heads or hearts)
- I collect hearts at 100% output. The abv drops slowly. By tasting during the run I decide for a good abv/temp and hold it there by controling the valve until the end of the run.
-Of course I start to collect jars again somwhere for the tails cut.
this is a good idea that could save me some time and split batches. Why do you skip the heads cut for aging?
What kind of figures do you usually end up with? What kind of temps do you start your hearts collection, and where do you usually stop the abv drop?
Bourbonizer
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by Bourbonizer »

bitter wrote:I have done both what der wo mentions and Odins method. It is true with odins method you still get flavor due to the smearing resulted from adding heads and taisl from previous runs. I find it make a bit light whiskey than the way der wo mentioned.. both are good depending what your after.

Odins method is closer to a Canadian whiskey than a Bourbon to me.

B
That is really helpful thank you. Re-reading Odin's method I'm going to start with der-wo's method anyways since the pure whiskey method needs feints from a previous run one way or another. I really like the descending proof approach.

On another note, revisiting Odin's thread I saw this
heartcut wrote:Very interesting. I make 1 run whiskey in a detuned copper scrubby packed 2 1/2" column using a dephlegmater, heat, stack for 20 min, take fores really slowly, heads a little faster and 160 proof hearts at 3+ l/hr. When the tails just start, increase dephleg flow and heat keeping ~160 proof till it slows to a crawl, then minimum reflux to 20%, usually 1/2l out of a 12 gal charge.
This deep tails cut (on a cm, not an LM), reminds me of what people have said about rum flavors being in the tails. anyone else re-blend late tails into whiskey like this? definitely something I'm going to try.
zapata
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by zapata »

What would you consider oaking strength, seems like running all the way down at 60% means running wide open and almost no reflux.
Yup, at least after slowly bleeding fores and heads. But it depends on the still, packing, and how you juggle power and reflux. For example I guess because I had enough packing not only did I have to reduce reflux severely/entirely, I had to up the power to "smear" the abv down. I quote smear because I don't mean the negative association, the resulting barrel strength whiskey was delicious.
But it illustrates the difference with a flute, they pretty much all run the same and you can copy how others run. But with a detuned reflux you have your setup. We can talk about general approaches, but everyone's packing density, packing material, column height, thermometer location and usage, valve quality, and power input are mostly individual variables. Which OTH is a benefit. I typically hate heads, and was not aging in a way that allowed them to evaporate, but I like a fair bit tails especially when aged. So high reflux for heads, low reflux high power smearing the abv down for undiluted aging and a rich profile similar to a late cut double pot still run suited me fine. So you can plan for what suits YOU, assuming you know. Or you guess, try, analyze, repeat.
since the pure whiskey method needs feints from a previous run
But the first run can be made like a phenomenal vodka, and that approach leaves almost all the flavor in the feints. Great IF you need more vodka, a total waste if doing multiple whiskey varieties and keeping all the feints seperate in a house that just doesnt consume as much vodka as whiskey (aka my house!)
With 4 theoretical plates on the proposed column (according to the calculator) is there a real difference besides speed?
Disclaimer, I don't have a flute. I have sat around one running a bit and am pretty familiar with them. Yes there is a difference. The difference between physical plates and theoretical ones is real. The difference between CM and LM is real. Can you achieve similar results? Certainly. But not by just emulating how a flute is run. How and why they smear or separate what they do and how and why they hold back what they do or not is pretty different.
Example, picture 1 tailsy molecule leaving the boiler at some point. In a flute it has to swim through 4 baths of liquid below its BP and pass a dephlegmator, while in a detuned LM column it has to shoot up the column in a half a second without interacting with cooler packing or descending reflux where it will be taken as product or not based on the odds of the reflux rate. Our friendly tailsy molecule has much different odds of getting through a packed column vs a plated one at any given moment. I think a flute does a "better" job of holding the tails back until they show up in a nasty flood right at the end, whereas pots and packed columns can be overpowered to let the right amount through. (All depending on taste and experience of course)

Mashrookie also had a great thread on reflux whiskey, more of the higher purity odin style than the der wo or Harry lower abv style, but it probably had some similar discussions.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=39751
And I'm pretty sure uncle jessie does refluxed whiskey in the 80-90% abv range.
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der wo
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by der wo »

Bourbonizer wrote: What would you consider oaking strength, seems like running all the way down at 60% means running wide open and almost no reflux. As always 60-65%. 60% will be more sweet, 65% more spicy.

What size needle valve are you using? Why do you think this is a necessity? A liquid management has the problem, that liquids have surface tension. This leads to problems with air bubbles. Product goes downwards, bubbles have to move upwards. They disturb each other. The greater the diameter of the pipes the better air (or steam) and distillate can move independently. The air bubbles can prohibit the ability of 100% output of LM stills.
I wrote here something about:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... &p=7468835
The product lines of my LM are 6mm inner diameter, 8mm outer diameter. The valve has 8mm connections, but the bore has 4.3mm only. This is the choke point. But it works, at least with 2.6kW (the maximum for a 2" column). It surges a bit (pulsing output), but it can maintain 100% output.


...but I'm not convinced 90% is going to yield whiskey that tastes like grey goose. and if it does I can always re-distill I suppose. A Whiskey distilled to 90% will taste great. It will never be "only" a Vodka. To make a Vodka is more difficult than simply distill to 90%. And you don't need neccessarily feints to get the taste at 90%.
But I like low abv more for Whiskey.


Why do you skip the heads cut for aging? I don't collect or toss much fores and heads, because they evaporate very fast. Every next Whisky I make I cut less, but I never had too much heads in the end after aging.

What kind of figures do you usually end up with? What kind of temps do you start your hearts collection, and where do you usually stop the abv drop? When the hearts start it's still at 95% or more. Because I collected fores very slowly, the packing is full of high proof alcohol. How fast it drops depends on the abv in the boiler. I stop it for Whiskey at 87 or 88°C normally. This is around 70%abv.
Generally I think zapatas last post has also very good information for you.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Bourbonizer
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by Bourbonizer »

Thank you all for all your help. This boka has been a plan of mine for some time and I'm so excited to build and run it. So now I have some questions on the specifics of construction. I was going to by a 42" piece of 3" pipe for the whole still. That's 24 for the packing, 8-10 for the condenser, then 8-10 for the slant plates (even though they won't take that much space, it gives me some wiggle room). I figure better to have a little too much than dial back the packed column.

Does that seem like a reasonable length for 24" of packing?

Is 8" of condenser enough to knock down all those vapors?

Is there any tips from after the original boka build instructions I should consider?

I'm going to attach it to my brewing kettle lid with an ez flange made from copper grounding wire, a kevlar gasket, and a some 304 screws. Is there a better way to do that? I'm not really able to do a tri-lock system cause it's not like I'm attaching to a keg or anything

Regarding the condensers I had planned on doing a double wrapped cold finger, but I saw some csst recomendatons that seem cheap an easier. Does that really work just as well? If I should go the cold finger route should I use 1/4" or 3/8 for winding?

Ok... that's all for now I think. I really appreciate all the help, I'm hoping to get building this weekend.
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by zapata »

You can save some of that 3" and cut the plates from smaller pipe if it saves some money. 1" ought to do, right?

Regarding the boiler connection, you said kevlar, I assume you meant teflon?

Also, the brewpot lid is stainless steel? Is it relatively flat? In the past I have used home made bolted connections, so it would probably work out. Lately I've been impressed with the triclap flanges designed for soldering. This one for example would be a breeze to solder onto a relatively flat lid.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc2fsf.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
It unfortunately doesnt come in 3", so you'd need the solder on flange, 2" gasket and clamp, 2"x3" adaptor and 3" gasket and clamp. Probably $70 or so once you do all that, but it would be solid and relatively clean.

I'm an anomoly and personally hate wound copper condensers. All my condensers now are shell and tube. I haven't used csst yet but it would be high on my list of options if I were building new.
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by Bourbonizer »

zapata wrote:You can save some of that 3" and cut the plates from smaller pipe if it saves some money. 1" ought to do, right?

Regarding the boiler connection, you said kevlar, I assume you meant teflon?Yes... Teflon. I was thinking, "kevlar" doesn't seem right," nothing like being right about being wrong

Also, the brewpot lid is stainless steel? Is it relatively flat? In the past I have used home made bolted connections, so it would probably work out. Lately I've been impressed with the triclap flanges designed for soldering. This one for example would be a breeze to solder onto a relatively flat lid.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc2fsf.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
It unfortunately doesnt come in 3", so you'd need the solder on flange, 2" gasket and clamp, 2"x3" adaptor and 3" gasket and clamp. Probably $70 or so once you do all that, but it would be solid and relatively clean.
For all that couldn't I silver solder a stainless 3" triclamp flange on the lid and a copper one on the bottom of the column? could even go stainless on the bottom of the still and save a couple bucks

I'm an anomoly and personally hate wound copper condensers. All my condensers now are shell and tube. I haven't used csst yet but it would be high on my list of options if I were building new.
What do you mean shell and tube? like a shotgun? isn't that a trickier build? Doing the math I've never been able to find a 10" design that has the same vapor exposed surface area as a wound condenser.
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by zapata »

I don't know about just soldering on a standard welding flange. I've seen a few do it, but for some reason most don't. I think the main issue is such a small area of contact. Also think it depends what you mean by silver solder. A 4-8% silver solder is real easy to work with, and fairly strong. A 45%ish silver is both more difficult to work with and stronger. Sure would be cleaner if it's strong enough though. I would worry that with a relatively thin pot lid you just won't have enough surface contact area. Something I've never seen anyone do and wondered why is to use a standard spool with TC on both ends and just surface solder it on. You'd have a lot of surface area and could even preload the gasket groove with ring of solder. Seems reasonable to me.

I use a crossflow condensor for reflux. You can make the crossflow to any length (thus cooling ability) and it'll be the same height. But with your short column, height probably doesnt matter and a csst coil would be at least 3 or 4 million times easier.
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by Cu29er »

Bourbonizer wrote:...I was going to by a 42" piece of 3" pipe for the whole still. That's 24 for the packing, 8-10 for the condenser, then 8-10 for the slant plates ...
Is there any tips from after the original boka build instructions I should consider?
... should I use 1/4" or 3/8 for winding?...
six inch double layer chiller is enough, use SS packing in and around to slow any vapor. It can do a lot more than you think to knock the vapors down. And three or four inches for the slant plates is all you need, 30 degrees. Use the rest for packing. Don't put the top slant plate on the coil, do a second cut in the outer pipe to insert a plate (down deeper in the boka build plans). Put the temperature probe below the upper plate not at half-way like the plans show. Loop the liquid tube to solder it below the output to the vertical pipe as the stress reliever. Tie the liquid tube to the cooling lines going to the top to chill the liquid line. A couple dozen medium binder clips works fine to hold lids on. The small valve only seems to ship in 1/4in diameter not 3/8ths so liquid tube size is limited by the valve.

.
Bourbonizer
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by Bourbonizer »

zapata wrote:Something I've never seen anyone do and wondered why is to use a standard spool with TC on both ends and just surface solder it on. You'd have a lot of surface area and could even preload the gasket groove with ring of solder. Seems reasonable to me.
This is what I decided to try with 51% silver brazing wire. Seems like a good way to attach to the lid. Couple extra bucks but it'll be cleaner and stronger. Going to go with a double wound cold finger for the condenser on top but it's good to know I have options.

Materials are coming this week, so excited
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by zapata »

You got experience with that brazing wire?
I would think with that much surface area something like harris stabrite 8 would be plenty dang strong and way easier than a high temp braze with much less risk to the stainless. Admitedly I am biased by my existing skillset, which does include brazing copper but not stainless that I recall.
Either way, document it for us, would ya?
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by Pikey »

If you're going to stick stainless to stainless - why not just stick weld it ? :?
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Re: building a boka still for whiskey

Post by zapata »

Well in my case; equipment, cost and experience. Stabrite 8, stayclean flux, < $5 per joint. Can be done with a $15 torch as easily as soldering copper so its a skillset any stiller has and with mapp much less propane you have to try pretty hard to burn up the stainless. I've seen "professional" welds look like burnt waffles.
Of course I want to learn how to weld anyway, it's on the to do list. I would assume if you're already setup it is probably the better option.
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