All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

Moderator: Site Moderator

TomCat_32
Novice
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:55 am

All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by TomCat_32 »

Hi All!

I have searched through this forum thoroughly, and googled for answers to my question but have not had luck. I apologize if there has been a topic about this, but I truly haven't see anything.

I run a 1/4 bbl system on an electric element (1500 watts), and have a boka column but have switched to a stainless pot still column with 2 copper scrubbers for better reflux.

I have made several different washes (Uncle Jesses, Sugar wash, Molasses, all grain) and all of the distillates have a strong paper taste - even after airing out the distillate. While some of these mashes/washes have used the same yeast (DADY), I've also used beer yeast & bakers yeast- so I can't imagine it's the yeast itself.

Then I thought it could be my gasket connecting the keg to the column. I use tri-clamps with PFTE gaskets but before I replaced the keg's neck with a tri-clamp ferrule, I used a gasket made from a thick cardboard wrapped in 2 rolls of PFTE tape. Since then, I have replaced the neck and have a full PFTE gasket and still have the paper flavor.

Then I thought it might be the element possibly burning yeast so I cold crashed the washes for 1 week and siphoned off the yeast cake and still have the papery flavor. Then, I thought it could be my water since it has a high TDS so I used RO water and dosed with salts/minerals and still have the papery flavor.

Now that I have tried all of the changes listed above, I can only think of 2 more issues: 1) I'm cooking way too slow and affecting the flavor and/or 2) I'm fermenting too cold and not getting substantial ester production.

I'm running off of 110 v water heater element (1500 watts) but it's only a 7 gallon system and I normally only run 5 gallons. A run normally takes me 7-8 hours (1.5-2 hours until foreshots) and even at full power, I can't get a steady thin stream but 6-7 drops per second. At full power, it doesn't puke, but the condenser (Liebig) does choke as it get cold air pulsing out of the condenser. I'll increase the temperature of the cooling water/reduce the flow which will reduce the choking, but the distillate comes off at the same rate. Am I cooking this too slow/do I not have enough power? I would imagine keeping the wash at above 170 Fahrenheit for several hours must change the flavor of the distillate?

Also, my washes ferment in open air in my house. The ambient temperature is around 73 degrees so I assume this is fermenting at 75-76 degrees fahrenheit. I get fairly clean washes with very little esters/phenols. Would this be a reason for a lack of body/papery note as the fermentation doesn't provide much complexity?

Sorry for the long-winded post but I am getting rather frustrated with the same papery flavor. I appreciate your input and thank you all for your wisdom and advice!

Cheers,

TomCat
User avatar
Still Life
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1545
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:24 pm
Location: Great State Of Missouri

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by Still Life »

This is a new one on me. Gonna take one of the more experienced distillers to really get a handle on this.

But the first thing that came to mind is the cardboard-ish taste of tails. Are you possibly collecting too deep in the run?
greggn
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1380
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:59 am
Location: East Coast

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by greggn »

How about nutrients ... are you using the same nutrient mix in all your recipes ?
________________

I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
TomCat_32
Novice
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:55 am

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by TomCat_32 »

Still Life- I thought it was me running too deep initially as well, but I get this papery taste throughout even when I run super low and slow, and even when I run the Boka in heavy reflux to ensure I get proper separation.

Greggn- I have used different nutrients for different washes - I have used LD Carlson Yeast Nutrients, tomato paste, previous dunder/backset. Could this be an issue?
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by still_stirrin »

It sounds like you’re digging too deep into the tails to me. Do you typically collect in a large jar after making your foreshots cut? Tails (regardless of the wash) if you go too low, will bring over some of the backset flavor and aroma into your collection.

Make your cuts (after airing out for 24-48 hours) when you collect into several small jars...at least dozen, preferrably 2 dozen.

Your dilema sounds like an “operator error”.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
User avatar
masonsjax
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:26 pm
Location: Appalachia

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by masonsjax »

Are your collection jars clean?
I had a friend who brewed some awesome beer, but one batch seemed like it was heavily oxidized. Turned out his freezer was making the mugs taste freezer burned but the beer was great as always once poured into clean glassware. Just a thought.
User avatar
dieselduo
Rumrunner
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:36 am
Location: Florida

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by dieselduo »

could be your packing is not clean too, otherwise I think like others, to far into the tails
TomCat_32
Novice
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:55 am

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by TomCat_32 »

Still_Stirrin- I run the still slow to ensure I get good separation of foreshots and heads, but I collect all of my distillate in 150-200 ml increments and collect around 20 jars of distillate. To me, they all taste/smell papery across the board (even the jars . I'm assuming It's an operator error as it usually is (especially with me). I air out the 20 jars for 48 hours before blending cuts and still have that damn papery taste. Is the 7-8 hour run too fast still that I would be getting tails smearing into hearts? Could it be that my controller for the element is not good enough and the element is pulsing too much and evaporating tails with the hearts?

For example- I followed Bucaneer Bob's Rum recipe to a T. He recommends dumping the 1st liter, and you should get 3-4 liters of hearts before the tails. I collected only 2 liters of the hearts and they still had that damn papery taste! It's very frustrating!

Masonsjax- I clean all of the jars prior to collection and let them air dry. I thought this could have been an issue or the coffee filters that I use to cover the distillate when airing out but have cleaned out the mason jars thoroughly and haven't used filters and still get it.
Last edited by TomCat_32 on Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by HDNB »

masonsjax wrote:Are your collection jars clean?
I had a friend who brewed some awesome beer, but one batch seemed like it was heavily oxidized. Turned out his freezer was making the mugs taste freezer burned but the beer was great as always once poured into clean glassware. Just a thought.
i'd look hard at this too. my drinking glasses start to smell like wet dog after too many trips through the dishwasher. the solution is to wash them by hand.
paper is not a smell/taste i've run across though...
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
TomCat_32
Novice
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:55 am

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by TomCat_32 »

HDNB- that was my initial thought to but I handwash every single one of them.

Every person I have told about the paper smell/taste says the same thing - they have never heard of it. If you have ever tried Makers Mark White Dog (only available at the distillery), it has a very very similar paper note to it.

I truly think I'm not going to deep into the tails due to me getting the papery notes even in the heads, but then again, you guys are the experts. All I know is I'm doing something wrong to make it taste like thisz
BayouShine
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:20 pm
Location: The Armpit of Louisiana

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by BayouShine »

TomCat_32 wrote:Is the 7-8 hour run too fast still that I would be getting tails smearing into hearts? Could it be that my controller for the element is not good enough and the element is pulsing too much and evaporating tails with the hearts?
This sounds like an issue to me. You're going WAY too slow for a 5 gallon spirit run on a pot still. You should be collecting at a pencil lead sized stream, even on a spirit run. I believe you're having tails pushed into your entire collection. Speed up.

Also, your element should not me pulsing at all. What type of controller do you have?
greggn
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1380
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:59 am
Location: East Coast

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by greggn »

> Could it be that my controller for the element is not good enough and the element is pulsing too much

I don't see a location specified in your profile so I'll just ask ... are you currently running central air conditioning ?

My second build of a power controller added a V-A meter and I noticed all summer long that the central air conditioner put such a load on my home's electric system that my heating element was seeing a significant swing in supplied power. Turning the air off during my runs was a simple enough fix and I went back to enjoying stable runs. It's possible that you're experiencing smearing for the same reason.
________________

I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
TomCat_32
Novice
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:55 am

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by TomCat_32 »

Bayou- I'm using a cheap router speed controller from Harbor Freight (see link below)

https://m.harborfreight.com/router-spee ... 20provided" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

For some reason, I was thinking the dimmer would be running PWM but now that I've looked into it, I believe it is a TRIAC controller. It's a cheap controller and I probably should replace it. Regardless, at full power, I can't get a steady stream which indicates I need to insulate my boiler more and potentially add another element.

Greggn- I am running central ac- that is very insightful as I would never have thought of it taxing my setup. I'll make sure to turn off the ac next time
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by Kareltje »

I made a series of ferments and 60 L stripping runs. Than I made 10 L spirit runs from the first, second and third part of the collected low wines. All of them tasted soapy! All birdwatchers with tomato paste and bakers yeast in a plastic fermenter approved for food and sold as beerfermenters. Distilled in an all copper, electrical fired pot still. Spirit in an all copper, gasfired still.
Some birdwatchers in a ss container with wineyeast, strip run and spirit run in all copper gas fired still. Clean taste!

JUst like you I can not find a cause. But I try to find a remedy.
By now I have some litres of 80 % of soapy distillate mixed with some activated animal carbon. Let it sit for some time and see/taste/smell what happens.
This is different from the off tastes of heads: for these I try washing soda.
User avatar
nuntius01
Rumrunner
Posts: 705
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:51 pm
Location: upper midwest

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by nuntius01 »

BayouShine wrote:
TomCat_32 wrote:Is the 7-8 hour run too fast still that I would be getting tails smearing into hearts? Could it be that my controller for the element is not good enough and the element is pulsing too much and evaporating tails with the hearts?
This sounds like an issue to me. You're going WAY too slow for a 5 gallon spirit run on a pot still. You should be collecting at a pencil lead sized stream, even on a spirit run. I believe you're having tails pushed into your entire collection. Speed up.

Also, your element should not me pulsing at all. What type of controller do you have?
i agree, i think you are running to slow. i also run with an element. you shouldnt have any pulsing of the element. this may also be contributing. i run my element with a pid and thermostat. when i had a short in my thermostat it caused my element to cycle. this gave me some off tastes too, although not the paper one you are describing. i believe it was due to some scorching on the element when it would surge. so, you may want to look at that too.
I'm just the bank and the mule

post your still pics here
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=66917
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by NZChris »

Can you please describe your stripping protocol and your spirit run protocol and how you do your cuts?
User avatar
bilgriss
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1690
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:28 pm
Location: Southeast-ish.

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by bilgriss »

It sounds like you are running 110V, and a router control? What size is your element. I have no trouble finishing a stripping run in two hours, using 110 and a 1650W low density element.

I think Chris is on the right track, and you are getting tails throughout the run. Also, are you doing stripping runs followed by a spirit run, or just a one and done?
User avatar
masonsjax
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:26 pm
Location: Appalachia

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by masonsjax »

Smearing sounds like a potential explanation for the papery flavor making it into your distillate, but you could probably address it earlier in the process too. I mentioned oxidation earlier, which causes a trademark musty wet cardboard flavor and aroma in beer. The best way to avoid this is to not stir or splash your wash once fermentation has begun. You should be careful about keeping splashes to a minimum when transferring between vessels, and even purge with CO2 if you have that capability. Oxidation usually isn't a concern with distilling, but if it's what's being smeared into your product, not having it there to begin would certainly help.
TomCat_32
Novice
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:55 am

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by TomCat_32 »

Kareltje - I have been fermenting all of my washes in my plastic beer buckets...perhaps you might be on to something? I have papery notes but maybe they will fade... I have yet to use carbon...

Nuntius01 - I don't know for sure if I have pulsing, but it is certainly a cheaper controller so I was taking shot in the dark. I do think I'm running too slow.... do you remove foreshots from your stripping run or take them out in the spirit run?

NZChris - I first do my stripping run where I siphon the wash after cold crashing to help the yeast flocculate. I put the element on full power until I get up to 140 - 150 degrees and then lower the power to take off the foreshots as slowly as possible. Once I get through the foreshots (only 50 ml from stripping run), I put it on full power and run the still until 40 proof is coming off the still (I usually get around 40-50% ABV low wines depending on recipe). With all of the low wines collected, I put them back into the keg once ready for the spirit run and dilute to around 20% abv. Then I do similar process heating it up, and then lower the heat and take off the 750 ml in the first hour (I also dump the foreshots). Then I speed up the heat a bit and collect 150 - 200 ml per jar, and collect around 20 jars (takes several hours). Then I air out the jars with a coffee filter on top of the mason jar for 24-48 hours. After that, I taste all of the jars to see which have too high of alcohol notes/sweet (heads), clean taste with low alcohol burn (hearts), and the ones that taste like wet dog (tails). The problem is they all have papery taste through out - I can mask it some times but I wonder if its my element cooking to slow, the plastic bucket fermenter, perhaps cleaning solution? Your guess is as good as mine.

Bilgriss- I am running 110v and a router control. The element is 110 v 1500 watt low density element. Even at max power, it takes 5-6 hours on a stripping run.

Masonsjax- It may very well be smearing, I just imagined a 7-8 hour would have good enough separation.... I don't think it's oxidation - I have only recently begun distilling - I got my roots in homebrewing, and my first thought was oxidation, but I set the fermenting bucket in place (covered with airlock), let it ferment, and siphon. Shouldn't have much oxidation in the short time...
User avatar
Chixter
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:39 pm

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by Chixter »

Have you tried a spirit run diluting to just under 40% instead of taking it down to 20%? I've seen the vast majority of recommended dilutions to 40% max, but I've not seen 20%. My first ever spirit run of an AG experiment I diluted to 38% on my Proof & Tralles. Did the cuts best I could and it tastes pretty good for my first try. IDK, I'm just throwing this out there.
When I was a boy, I prayed for a bicycle. I soon learned G~d doesn't work like this so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
OtisT
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3180
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by OtisT »

TomCat_32 wrote:A run normally takes me 7-8 hours (1.5-2 hours until foreshots) and even at full power, I can't get a steady thin stream but 6-7 drops per second.
Hi TomCat. I don't see any mention of insulation in this thread. If you are not insulated, doing so would help improve production greatly. I also run a 1500W rig, and I don't think I could fraction well w/o it. Both the boiler and column.
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by NZChris »

I think you can discount the problem coming from the distilling protocol unless there is something you haven't told us. I doubt running slower or faster would get rid of it.
If the problem is sulfides, stainless steel doesn't help getting rid of them like copper does. Copper is beneficial in the boiler and the vapor path for both stripping and spirit runs.

I wonder if it's an ingredient common to all the washes.
Can you taste it in the washes?

Could it be in your water? Diluting from 40-50% to 20% takes a lot of water, (I use none by running to my desired ABV), plus it is used in the ferment.

Nutrients? The sugar?

Have you tried a different fermenter?
Don Quixote
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:26 am
Location: My living room

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by Don Quixote »

I’m relatively new to distilling but have been brewing beer for over 20 years. I may have some insight here. I’m also a Cicerone and BJCP Judge and have studied off flavors and their causes for many years. In brewing beer after you are finished boiling you want to chill the wort down as fast as possible to yeast pitching temperatures. If you don’t you can get what is called hot side aeration where the hot wort gets oxidized. Oxidation can cause a cardboard or paper off flavor in a beer. I’m not sure if this would distill out or not because as I mentioned, I’m new to distilling. I understand that distillers don’t boil their mash but HSA can happen at temperatures as low as 86F. Just my two cents worth and maybe someone with a little more experience can add some insight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cheers,
Don Quixote
La Mancha, Spain
Bagasso
Distiller
Posts: 1344
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:09 pm

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by Bagasso »

TomCat_32 wrote:Now that I have tried all of the changes listed above, I can only think of 2 more issues: 1) I'm cooking way too slow and affecting the flavor and/or 2) I'm fermenting too cold and not getting substantial ester production.
I've had the same thing in my last couple of runs. I'm fermenting in 28°C room temp so I'm not fermenting anywhere near cool and I'm running propane so there is no pulsing but I'm testing out air cooling so I'm running very slow.

What I tried this afternoon was placing a piece of 1/2 inch copper pipe, about 4 inches long, in 150ml of low wines with this papery smell to it. Had another 250 ml that I left alone and I noticed a difference. The only thing is that I am on day 3 of a cold and my sniffer is not in the best shape but I was able to notice a difference. It wouldn't take you very much time for you to try the same. I didn't time how long the copper pipe was in the distillate but Id guess maybe 6-7 hours. Leave it overnight or even 24 hours and see if that makes a difference. If so then maybe the 2 scrubbies in the boka are not enough.

I've started dropping copper off-cuts in my wash and sometimes it stays in there long enough to tinge it with a bit of aqua/green. I didn't in this last batch because I was testing out bentonite but it seems like that didn't work as expected so back to soaking copper in my wash I go. I made a thread about using copper this way called So, the answer was copper. You might want to take a look and, more importantly, try the method above to see if it helps in your case.
BugHunter
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:27 pm
Location: Bay Area, California

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by BugHunter »

I'm a total novice when it comes to distilling, so take this with a grain of salt. But since the experts haven't come up with an answer, I might as well make suggestions. :)

First off, Bagasso's copper suggestion sounds promising, since it seems to have solved a very similar issue for him, so I'd try that.

If that doesn't work, we can approach this by looking at where it could be coming from. The possibilities I see are:
  • The wash
  • The still
  • A combination of the wash and your technique.
An easy way to rule out the still would be to buy a cheap bottle of vodka and do a spirit run with it. If the distallate has the papery taste, then there is something about your still. Seems unlikely, but it's not too hard to test.

Oh, also, be sure to taste the vodka before runnig it through your still. If it tastes papery out of the bottle, maybe your taste buds are out of whack? People's sense of taste/smell have been known to get messed up. Have others tasted your product and also noticed the papery taste?
greggn
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1380
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:59 am
Location: East Coast

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by greggn »

> An easy way to rule out the still would be to buy a cheap bottle of vodka and do a spirit run with it. If the distallate has the papery taste, then there is something about your still.


That there is a good idea.
________________

I drank fifty pounds of feed-store corn
'till my clothes were ratty and torn
User avatar
nuntius01
Rumrunner
Posts: 705
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:51 pm
Location: upper midwest

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by nuntius01 »

[quote="TomCat_32"]Kareltje - I have been fermenting all of my washes in my plastic beer buckets...perhaps you might be on to something? I have papery notes but maybe they will fade... I have yet to use carbon...

Nuntius01 - I don't know for sure if I have pulsing, but it is certainly a cheaper controller so I was taking shot in the dark. I do think I'm running too slow.... do you remove foreshots from your stripping run or take them out in the spirit run?


i normally take them out on the stripping run. really like the vodka bottle idea. that at least gives you a starting reference point
I'm just the bank and the mule

post your still pics here
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=66917
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by Kareltje »

TomCat_32 wrote:Kareltje - I have been fermenting all of my washes in my plastic beer buckets...perhaps you might be on to something? I have papery notes but maybe they will fade... I have yet to use carbon...
For me it is definitely not my still. They all have copper boilers and copper piping.
I did birdwatchers with bread yeast in plastic fermenters and these were soapy.
I did a birdwatchers with wine yeast in a ss fermenters and this was clean, at least not soapy.

I used bread yeast before and in more occasions, without the soapy result, so I guess it is the plastic fermenters. I washed them, of course, and I did only ferment until about 12 %ABV. Fermenters should withstand that percentage, I think.

Still working with the carbon. Will report when I am finished.
User avatar
Single Malt Yinzer
Trainee
Posts: 973
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

Clean everything with citric acid, especially the packing. My used still had a similar issue until I gave it a heavy cleaning. You can get it at your HBS or amazon. I forget the mix ratio. Look up cleaning copper here for the amount to use. I think it has to do with puking but I'm not sure. If that doesn't work then at least you have a really nice clean still. :ebiggrin:
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: All Distillates Have Similar Papery Taste

Post by Kareltje »

I doubt if this is relevant for TomCat_32, but it might be relevant for me.
The large still I bought for a crate of beer was used so I supposed it was clean enough. I only ran water through it.
Indeed another common factor is the strip run with the large still.
Post Reply