Re-distillation safety question

[thomasario]

OK, stupid but fundamental question from aspiring gin newbie.

Here in the UK, legislation makes it extremely difficult for anyone other than a large commercial organisation to distil spirit. As a consequence many small gin makers (as I understand it) start with neutral grain spirit which they purchase from a bigger licensed distiller.

They then add botanicals and redistill.

OK so here’s the stupid question.

Having read about the distilling process I understand that the foreshots are what come out first – and that these are thrown away for fear of poisoning, blindness, early grave, etc.

I’m assuming that by starting with a neutral spirit these are already gone? (Conjuring them back out of thin air seems unlikely even to a novice like me.)

Therefore the redistilling process shouldn’t have any nasties like this?

Is that correct or am I missing something fundamental and dangerous?

Thanks for your input (and patience with a newbie).

Cheers, Tom.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

If I was distilling water, I would take a foreshot.



Seriously, it's not like their sending you 100% ethanol. It doesn't ever hurt to take a small percent of the front. Forget any chemicals you think you are getting rid of. Ain't really the best in their either right? Way I see it, that 50ml of whatever is my mini cleaning regiment.

Bottom line, you hope it was all high quality product from the first drop, but are you hurting anything by being safer than sorry?

[zed255]

Any commercial spirit I have redistilled has had some really nasty fores and heads. Got my hands on quite a few various bottles of old vodka, whiskey and rum and ran them through my reflux rig. The fores almost made me puke to run my nose anywhere near.

Make at least a generous fores cut. Commercial booze is nastier than you can imagine.

[thomasario]

If I was distilling water, I would take a foreshot.



Seriously, it's not like their sending you 100% ethanol. It doesn't ever hurt to take a small percent of the front. Forget any chemicals you think you are getting rid of. Ain't really the best in their either right? Way I see it, that 50ml of whatever is my mini cleaning regiment.

Bottom line, you hope it was all high quality product from the first drop, but are you hurting anything by being safer than sorry?

OK, that makes sense. I suppose you're right it's not 100% And a like the idea of 50ml cleaning regime.

Incidentally, lovin the Floyd references

[thomasario]

Any commercial spirit I have redistilled has had some really nasty fores and heads. Got my hands on quite a few various bottles of old vodka, whiskey and rum and ran them through my reflux rig. The fores almost made me puke to run my nose anywhere near.

Make at least a generous fores cut. Commercial booze is nastier than you can imagine.

Thanks Zed. This is really interesting stuff.

At least this is one thing I can cross off the list of about a million I could learn the hard way.

Really appreciate the feedack from you guys

[NZChris]

There won't be anything in the foreshot that will kill you unless you are stupid enough to keep it separate and drink it straight in a large enough quantity. The same goes for most of the ingredients in gin. If you are stupid enough to isolate any of the components and drink them on their own you deserve what you get.

Water some down to 40% and taste it. If it is ok, make your gin. If it is really bad, you might want to re-run it before the gin run. If it's not too bad, the small foreshot discarded when doing an Odin's Easy Gin style run should get rid of enough nasties for them not to matter.

[Kareltje]

When using a perfectly clear, neutral alcohol there should not be a head in redistilling.
I find that in almost all runs the very first sample is of lower %ABV than the second. I still can not explain that, but I guess there is some foreshot in this first sample.
As NZChris said: Odin takes for his Easy Gin a small foreshot or head. It does not hurt to discard it and it does not diminish the heart much.
But safety? Mwoa, I doubt it.

[thomasario]

There won't be anything in the foreshot that will kill you unless you are stupid enough to keep it separate and drink it straight in a large enough quantity. The same goes for most of the ingredients in gin. If you are stupid enough to isolate any of the components and drink them on their own you deserve what you get.

Water some down to 40% and taste it. If it is ok, make your gin. If it is really bad, you might want to re-run it before the gin run. If it's not too bad, the small foreshot discarded when doing an Odin's Easy Gin style run should get rid of enough nasties for them not to matter.

Thanks NZChris. I need to check out Odin's Easy Gin recipe - although whenever I search for it it I only seem to get posts relating to it but not the recipe itself.

Cheers.

[thomasario]

When using a perfectly clear, neutral alcohol there should not be a head in redistilling.
I find that in almost all runs the very first sample is of lower %ABV than the second. I still can not explain that, but I guess there is some foreshot in this first sample.
As NZChris said: in Odin's takes for his Easy Gin a small foreshot or head. It does not hurt to discard it and it does not diminish the heart much.
But safety? Mwoa, I doubt it.

I'm getting the picture now Thanks for the advice - appreciated

[Kareltje]

Thanks NZChris. I need to check out Odin's Easy Gin recipe - although whenever I search for it it I only seem to get posts relating to it but not the recipe itself.

Cheers.

The recipe is in the OP.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 96&t=48668

[thomasario]

Thanks NZChris. I need to check out Odin's Easy Gin recipe - although whenever I search for it it I only seem to get posts relating to it but not the recipe itself.

Cheers.

The recipe is in the OP.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 96&t=48668

Thanks NZChris

[StillerBoy]

I need to check out Odin's Easy Gin recipe - although whenever I search for it it I only seem to get posts relating to it but not the recipe itself.

As per the link provided to you, you may also want to use the HD google search at the top of the page..

Use the "HD Google Search", when it open, just provide a space after the org/forum and type in whatever your're searching for, and click the search icon..

Here's reading on gin for you.. the second one on the list is Odin's receipe.. https://www.google.ca/search?rls=en-us& ... nkCfFG95VY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Mars

[bluefish_dist]

Interestingly, beef eater has several large plate stills to clean up alcohol prior to making gin. They too buy GNS for making gin.
It can't hurt to do another run on GNS and make cuts. I suspect that tito's does this and is why I think their vodka is decent for a GNS based vodka. Much better than some other brands that don't redistill. We did a blind taste test when developing our vodka and found that the only one people could identify was one from a major brand that simply bottles GNS and it want because it was good.

[zapata]

Also keep in mind that many will keep a "fore" cut from the gin botanicals. Meaning even with a perfect neutral, many feel the first bit of essential oils to come over are not desireable. This is of course different than a normal fores cut which is congeners from the booze itself.

[Kareltje]

What zapata wrote!
Today I ran a 4 times distilled wash, diluted to about 6,5 liters of 30 %ABV. Started very, very slow.
I sampled at about 20 ml, diluted this samples so I could use my alcoholmeter. Then calculated the original %ABV.

17 ml proved to be 80 %ABV.
The next 3 samples of 21 to 23 ml were about 93 %ABV.
The 5th sample was 23 ml of about 90 %ABV

Then the next sample of 96 ml was about 93 %ABV.

Clearly: the very first drops coming from your still do not correspond with the strength of your wash.
Whether this is a problem for your safety, I do not know.

[wattsie]

Hi people, as I understand it and thought about this question, I took it that every time alcohol was ran through a still, as it reached 63° it produces methanol, there for you should discard it as forshots, even on your stripping run and your gin or whiskey run.. Is this correct..thanks.

[zapata]

Nope. If you put azetropic ethanol in a still, the only thing that will come out is azetropic ethanol, methanol is not formed in the still from ethanol.
With compound mixes, like say a stripping run, only methanol in the mix can come over, none is generated in situ. Even then methanol is not limited to the foreshots.
I've never taken a fores cut while stripping amd probably never will.

[Kareltje]

Methanol is formed during or before fermentation, mainly from pectin of pentose. Although it is more poisonous than ethanol, it seldomly is present in really harmful amounts. (Unless it is put in the distillate on purpose from other sources.)

It is distilled for a large part in the heads, but also for a large part comes with the ethanol during the whole run, even into the tails.

[NZChris]

If you are worried about methanol, have a look at this thread.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 33&t=40606

[markieb]

hi thomas im from uk too.
regarding the law the police arnt worried its a civil matter as i was advised by a policeman i was chatting to in devon it would be customs and excise that are the ones to watch out for do it commercially and sell it without a refractioners license(think thats the word) and if found out they will fuck you without buying you dinner first!but from what i can see its not illegal to own distilling equipment pipes boiler if you can prove its not for distilling (make it modular easy to hide away) if you are doing a run then make sure your not in view of people and be descrete place up a screen of some sort (i use a halfords gazeebo with sides) they have to catch you running it and if you have been selling it then they will want their share and more (its 76% tax per bottle of spirit in uk)

also as an aspiring newbie gin maker what still are you looking at?remember no plastics and no lead!do a vinegar run then a sacrificial run first before looking at getting any drinkable product trust me i was tempted to not listen but figured hell its another 2 weeks of waiting for a ferment and boy i was glad i did wait the gunk that came out from the flux and tiny little bits of steel from my scrubbers the sac run was alot cleaner but still saw nasties in it the actual drinking run i also ditched just to make sure but the run after that came out and ive not looked back since i clean my scrubber pads every run and do a small 30min steam clean every run too to remove any tails left behind it does make a difference i found.
also when your taking your fores heads hearts tails light a teaspoon full check for any redness in the flame if there is then there is lead in your system and you dont want none of that shyte!
now as for refractioning neutral brought from distilleries okay interesting concept but you have the ability to produce a cleaner spirit than they would probably sell you anyways at a much lower cost you can make about 4-5.5ltr at 93% /9-11 litres of 40ish percent neutral that would cost you around £11 total!i brought some smirnoff a couple weeks ago at a wedding and its frickin horrendous i put it in my mouth and god dayumn that was shyte (10 times distilled my arse) i poured it away got a pint of coke and 4 oz of my own neutral and i was a happy bunny from there on out
hi and welcome from the uk too for reasonable parts prices check out jtmplumbing i got my 3" 1.5mtr copper tube from there and my legitimate 50ltr keg was sourced for a £5 from a scrap metal merchants with recipt

[Pikey]

OK, stupid but fundamental question from aspiring gin newbie.

Here in the UK, legislation makes it extremely difficult for anyone other than a large commercial organisation to distil spirit. As a consequence many small gin makers (as I understand it) start with neutral grain spirit which they purchase from a bigger licensed distiller.

They then add botanicals and redistill.

.........

Is that what they do ? I know the requirement for a minimum 400 gallon still is a killer for most (including me) - but are we permitted to take "duty paid" spirit and redistill it as your post suggests ?

[markieb]

OK, stupid but fundamental question from aspiring gin newbie.

Here in the UK, legislation makes it extremely difficult for anyone other than a large commercial organisation to distil spirit. As a consequence many small gin makers (as I understand it) start with neutral grain spirit which they purchase from a bigger licensed distiller.

They then add botanicals and redistill.

.........

Is that what they do ? I know the requirement for a minimum 400 gallon still is a killer for most (including me) - but are we permitted to take "duty paid" spirit and redistill it as your post suggests ?

you would need a refractioners license from hmrc pikey but they are apparently alot easier to obtain and alot cheaper but you would still need the licensed bonded storage to store your spirits (think thats right wording) and pay duty on every bottle produced records kept of amount and products used and amount of end product.
rectifiers license using form L5 or compounders license same form hmrc website
gov.uk/guidance/spirits-duty

[HDNB]

i've seen lab gas chromatography results on NGS distilled in Canada and there is "no discernible peaks" meaning there is nothing but ethanol and water in the mix.

i'd bet that most, or all, commercial gin rectifiers use purchased NGS, you simply cannot produce it for the price you can buy it from a factory.

I also doubt Tito's uses NGS (but i don't know this as a fact) because it has a very distinctive flavour...and GNS voddy tastes and smells like clean water.

[The Baker]

Markieb said, 'i brought some smirnoff a couple weeks ago at a wedding and its frickin horrendous i put it in my mouth and god dayumn that was shyte (10 times distilled my arse) '

Just looked at the label, 'THREE times distilled and ten times filtered'.

Anyway I got my wife, who doesn't drink spirits except maybe in a cocktail, to GENTLY sniff Grey Goose. She said, 'That's not bad' (high praise).
Then Smirnoff.....'That's shit!'

Geoff