Better Cuts with better Dilution

[stillanoob]

Nothing new under the sun I guess, I have been using a glass tube myself. I haven't bothered to mark it but maybe I will.

[Hambone]

I use a 5 ml graduated cylinder and dilute based on ABV

[elkay2882]

Very informative. Now I have a better understanding.

[n_plains_drifter]

I'm lucky because I've got a "Surplus Scientific" store near by. I've got a number of graduated pipettes, ranging from 50 mm down to 1 mm.

My go-to for cuts is a 10 mm pipette. I've created a 'cheat sheet' that tells how to reduce any ABV down to the same 30% ABV where I taste. In every instance, 4 mm product at ABV Y is mixed with X mm of water to get to 30% ABV.

In that manner, when tasting from individual jars, there is consistency so no mistaking alcohol burn for heads etc. YMMV.

Best, Drifter

[Bradster68]

Kiwistillers Novice guide to Cuts is Mandatory reading

Beginners often comment that when doing cuts they find it hard to distinguish the various parts and too often it is found that they are simply sampling straight out of the jars .
Samples should always be dilluted down before sampling and the ideal ABV is around 35% .
Diluting a sample really opens up the flavours........the good and the bad ....exactly what you need to be able to taste to make the best cuts you can .

Diluting Too much will often give a sense of a weak flavoured spirit making it hard to judge its charactor. After taking a weak sample , the tendancy is to take another .....but often it ends up too high in ABV ......Bammm...taste buds fried .
Once you have had samples at too higher ABV then you might as well pack it in for the night as you can no longer make an informed descision . Things like tails just can't be detected and iffn you do go ahead and maker your cuts , you usually regret it .

I used to do cuts with my old dipp'n spoon
Dip it in the jar , splash in some water and have a taste ....it kinda worked . I still use this method for on the fly testing . Dip the spoon in some water , hold it under the spout for a few splashes and have a taste .



But its pretty hit and miss and the ABV can be all over the place .

My old mate.jpg

Recently , I come up with a much improved method which makes repeatability of samples during cuts much better and it also eliminates another major issue encountered when making cuts ....Getting Maggoted

And while a few teaspoons seems good at the time , 10mls becomes 50mls becomes 200mls

This new method means only about 1ml - 2mls per sip ...enough to make a reasonable decision but not so much as to impair decision making when many samples up / down through the jars needs to be made.

So here it is ....my glass tube
Coloured water added for clarity
My new Buddy.jpg

Well big woop you say ....maybe ...but it works ...and its quick as to use .
Its just a piece of glass tube about 4mm in diameter with about a 2mm hole up its clacka .
Sure , you can use glass syringes and pipettes and the like but they are sooooooooo fiddly and time consuming to use ...this dead easy .

This is what I do

1) Dip it into the sample up to the mark ....( STICK YOUR THUMB OVER THE END ........so it stays in there)
2)Let it go into a teaspoon
3)Dip it into some water up to another mark which is the ABV of the sample ( STICK YOUR THUMB OVER THE END )
4)Let it mix into the sample in the spoon ( a quick stir won't hurt )

5)Taste it

I got out the calculator
Here are the magic marks ......it just so happened to be a nice linear scale .....Yes you can choose any spacing you like , mm , 1/8" of an inch ...doesn't matter so long as you can dip it far enough into you jar . ...Just scale it .

scaling your tube.jpg

Now I don't like Maker pen in my drink so I scored the marks I care about with a file and wiped off the Marker pen .

I have made a few ...one for when I do neutrals in the VM that are always around 95% , one for the Pot still which is around 60-80% and one for the Flute which is around 85-95%
( Just be careful not to score the tube too much as this is the exact technique used to "snap" the stuff to size.)
In-fact you don't need to score it at all if your Eye-O-Meter is good enough at repeated " rough enough is good enough Measurements "
mark the tube.jpg


So here's my spirit Run
I'm collecting in 500ml jars .....Thank goodness we buy a lot of Pasta sauce

Collecting in Jars.jpg

I have left them covered overnight to air and have them all lined up on the table .
To make decent cuts you need at least 20-30 jars .

If you only have 7 full jars ...it just ain't gonna work so well .......next time only a third fill those jars ...you gotta have choices

Jars laid out.jpg

So Let The Fun Begin

Take a sample from about the the middle jar .....Remember , dip the Glass tube up to the "Sample " position ......it is the same every sample ( only the water level varys) .....(and you don't have to be ubba anal ) .....close enough is better than a random splash in a spoon .

Dip the tube in to the sample.jpg

Release the sample into you spoon

Release sample.jpg

Dip the tube into the water up to the ABV % mark that approximates the strength of the sample .

Taking some water.jpg

Add the water to the sample in the spoon ....stir if you please .

Add water to sample.jpg

TASTE IT

Now repeat up and down the jars

Initial Cuts.jpg

You will find a Bland tight Hearts Cut in the middle that is ...welll...boring but safe
You will find the decidedly heads section that is a definite nogo .......like wise there will be a tails section that is only fit for feints .

Then there will be a group eitherside of the tight hearts cut that you can't quite decide on and likewise a section of tailsy jars that are questionable .
When making flavoured spirits these are the tricky jars that will either enhance or worsen the final spirit .

This looks too simple. Great simple way of getting a exact( or darn close) sample measurement. It'll be my new way from now on.
Thanks for your time.

[globalsouth_shine]

This is such a great thread, love the pictures of your set-up.

[rcazparts]

No wonder everything just taste the same after a few jars. I was dipping a finger and getting the flavor. Smell has been getting some indication. Hate being the FNG!

Just ordered some glass pipettes with ml gradients. Learned a lot reading this thread!

[DaveK]

Sigh!....
Glass pipettes? Sheesh! just keep it simple. On Amazon you can find "plastic eyedroppers" in bulk, which are graduated from 1 to 5 ml. They have a squeeze-bulb and marked index points for each ml. You can get a lifetime supply of these for just a few dollars (I got 200 for $12).


Safety first and foremost! These forums take a very strong negative view on the use of plastics and synthetics in distilling. It simply is not safe to use these during any part of the distillation process with the exception of HPDE buckets which are acceptable for fermentation. There simply are too many types of plastics and a lack of reliable information for us to reliably advocate their use anywhere in the distillation apparatus. Also, from past posting history, this topic seems to quickly boil down into an almost religious flame war. Thus we simply will not put up with it, and posts about any form of plastic use will be edited, deleted or locked

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Becuase one follows our culture of material safety and one does not. Doing the right thing is rarely the most convenient thing.

[DaveK]

With regard to your well intentioned comment...
Safety first and foremost! [truncated]
[/quote]

These eyedroppers/pipettes I mentioned are sold as food-grade items. I understand your reluctance to use or endorse the use of plastic materials in the production, handling, and storage of distilled products, but there are times when holding to that position is both overly protective and overly expensive.

In this case, I'll not argue for or against these food-grade polyethylene eyedroppers other than to say they are cheap, easy to use, almost unbreakable, and have very limited potential for leaching plasticizers or other undesirable chemicals into your product. Is glass better? Probably yes.

Do what YOU need to to stay as safe as YOU feel you need to be.

[NormandieStill]

For the record, food-safe testing protocols do not include high-proof alcohol. A pot still charged with low wines is capable of producing 80%+ abv. That is not a food stuff so it's normal to not test against it.

Glass is better and since it won't degrade with time, works out cheaper in the long run. Save the plastics for adding water.

[Saltbush Bill]

Normadies point is 100% correct Davek...its very simple, we are not dealing with a food product here......we are dealing with a number of compounds that are high grade solvents.

[rubberduck71]

There's an abundance of stainless steel straws on Amazon that are cheap. Just dip, cover the top with your finger & drop it into a shot glass. Do the same with a jar of distilled water & you have darn close to 40% to taste each cut.

[psf]

There's an abundance of stainless steel straws on Amazon that are cheap. Just dip, cover the top with your finger & drop it into a shot glass. Do the same with a jar of distilled water & you have darn close to 40% to taste each cut.

Straw gave me a idea since I have some in the drawer.

Used an old dull tube cutter blade and sanded it some more to make sure. Reinstalled and made my rings with it. Tightened it down to dent the tube and a once around to mark. Scuffed the alcohol mark for a visual. The end.

[Yummyrum]

Brilliant psf

[rubberduck71]

Good stuff psf!

[Deplorable]

There's an abundance of stainless steel straws on Amazon that are cheap. Just dip, cover the top with your finger & drop it into a shot glass. Do the same with a jar of distilled water & you have darn close to 40% to taste each cut.

Straw gave me a idea since I have some in the drawer.

Used an old dull tube cutter blade and sanded it some more to make sure. Reinstalled and made my rings with it. Tightened it down to dent the tube and a once around to mark. Scuffed the alcohol mark for a visual. The end.

BD0EDC43-892E-4B4C-99D8-D786C284E913_1_201_a.jpeg

I gotta say, I really like that.

[Metalking00]

I just got a set of 5 graduated cylinders , and when i opened the package found they came with 3 glass pipettes. Nice little bonus i wasnt expecting, especially for $23. One is graduated to 1ml, the other two blank. The rubber bulbs they came with are junk and went straight in the trash, but they work great with the finger method. Im looking forward to trying this out for my next run.

[Mr_Beer]

Amazon sells SS straws along with cleaning brushes -- only $6.

My tube cutters are old and probably would crush the straw so I used a Dremel type tool and a cutting wheel at about 3000 RPM to mark the graduations. I made a word template that I could print out and tape the SS straw to and while I used the Dremel tool to mark the straw.

If interested, PM me and I will send you the Word document.

[Mr_Beer]

I am confused about the process.
Pot still with about 8 gallon capacity

The original diagram showed a graduated pipette with markings down to 35%.

Some of my collection 'jars' have an ABV of 10%. Should I just extend the graduations on the pipette to the lower values?

The alternative is for someone to tell me I am attempting to squeeze too much from the distillation process and I should have stopped at a different point.

[Saltbush Bill]

If you running down to 10% you going way to far for a spirit run imo.......you could have staved time and stopped well before that.

[Yummyrum]

I agree with Salty .No need to dilute for tasting if your sample is already at 35% or less.
But you would be so far into tails at 35% , you wouldn’t be including them .At 10% or less, you might use as Sweetwater to dilute the whole finished blend .

Out of interest , are you doing a stripping run followed by a spirit run ?…… or is this just a one and done.

[Mr_Beer]

No, it is a stripping run and a spirit run.

My inexperience shows here -- should I stop at 2-0% of ??

[Yummyrum]

There is nothing wrong with collecting everything in jars when you are still learning .
But once you’ve done it a few times , you can normally tell by a quick sample “on the fly” ( a splash of water in a spoon and a splash from the spout ) when you have reached the objectional tails that you know there is no way you would include them , and switch from collecting in small jars to just cranking up the heat and “stripping “ the tails on the spirit run for further recycling into a larger container .

I probably should have said in this OP what the ABV of the jars were but I didn’t simply because newbs would most likely try to copy the numbers rather than actually doing it properly by taste .

The jars in that OP were from a Pot stilled strip and spirit run of a Whisky I was doing . From memory the tails jars were in the range of 55% down to around 20ish IIRC

Now , if I was doing a Rum in my Thumper , the hearts would be up around the 85 -80% mark and the tails would be around 75% and down ….. and then stripped out .

As you can see , numbers don’t mean a lot . The whole purpose of this topic was to teach about the importance of diluting samples and in particular the higher ABV ones .And of course the concept of making and trying blends of jars to get a happy final cut .

[NZChris]

Horses for courses.

I see this method as great for selecting a neutral heart cut, but not so good for selecting a heart cut for flavored products like rum, whisky, etc., where an optimum blend of congeners from the collected jars is likely to be nicer than a guessed heart cut made by a newbie tasting individual jars and guessing what each jar might do for the heart cut.

[Yummyrum]

Horses for courses.

I see this method as great for selecting a neutral heart cut, but not so good for selecting a heart cut for flavored products like rum, whisky, etc., where an optimum blend of congeners from the collected jars is likely to be nicer than a guessed heart cut made by a newbie tasting individual jars and guessing what each jar might do for the heart cut.

This bit addresses that …… I think
viewtopic.php?p=7500097#p7500097

[NZChris]

Yeah, sort of. I tried it a couple of times when you first posted it, then reverted to making up sample blends, which takes a lot less sampling so doesn't wreck my taste buds as much before having to make the final choice, (which I mostly recheck the next day after my taste buds have time to recover).

Some of the early and late jars of flavored products can taste nasty on their own because they contain concentrated flavors that capture the essences of the grain or the cane that are lacking in the middle of the run.

[Mr_Beer]

Thanks to everyone who responded.

I fool feelish -- the light bulb finally went on. It was my slavish approach to the dilution process without actually recognizing why stuff is being diluted.

Yummyrum said it all ..

The whole purpose of this topic was to teach about the importance of diluting samples and in particular the higher ABV ones. And of course the concept of making and trying blends of jars to get a happy final cut .

I failed to consider that the real goal is the blending activity after the dilution. Obviously, the dilution of any sample jar below 35% is not required. The process can then move to the blending activity.

My favorite expression was "education is expensive; you pay for it with loss of income (while going to school) or by mistakes that build experience. In either case there is a cost".

Thanks to everyone who helped with my education.

In the future I will stop the collecting of samples at the 20% level and relegate the rest to the feints jar.

[Saltbush Bill]

In the future I will stop the collecting of samples at the 20%

Why use an ABV % as a cut off point.........wouldn't it be easier and faster to just stop the run once you smell/ taste tails.
You should be sticking a finger under the output on every jar for a quick smell or taste.

[Mr_Beer]

Until I gain enough experience to sense/smell/taste tails, I need some metric.

In a year or so, my view ill probably have changed a lot.

Thanks for the recomendation.