Down sizing

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BrewNewbie
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Down sizing

Post by BrewNewbie »

I currently have an 8 gal pot still from mile high and a brewhaus thumper. While it makes some great whiskey the amount I get from it is excessive for my needs. I don’t sell it nor really give much away as I don’t want folks knowing it do this. I’m contemplating. A downsizing to a 1 gal copper alembic. I have a few questions however before taking the plunge.
1. What is the difference between the alembics with a column and those without?
2. I see many good retailers and I’m not worried about the price but I see there are many different ways of mounting the thermometer to measure head temps. What are the pros and cons?
3. With a 1 gallon still and a 20% mash fully fermented what should I expect my yield to be assuming I cut it properly and don’t heat it too quickly?
4. Do you foresee any issues using an electric hot plate that heat an alembic vs using a gas source?

Thanks!
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Re: Down sizing

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Just copied this back for you now you have made your welcome post
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Re: Down sizing

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Yummyrum wrote:Just copied this back for you now you have made your welcome post
thank you!


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Re: Down sizing

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BrewNewbie wrote:I currently have an 8 gal pot still from mile high and a brewhaus thumper. While it makes some great whiskey the amount I get from it is excessive for my needs. I don’t sell it nor really give much away as I don’t want folks knowing it do this.
I’m contemplating. A downsizing to a 1 gal copper alembic. I have a few questions however before taking the plunge.
3. With a 1 gallon still and a 20% mash fully fermented what should I expect my yield to be assuming I cut it properly and don’t heat it too quickly?
Thanks!
Welcome from a fellow Noob!
I am in NO way an expert or even experienced enough to answer your questions, but that won't keep me from chiming in.
You don't give your motivation for pursuing this hobby, I would think that when you figure that out, the answer will be easy.
1. From my readings, I've seen a lot of advice that runs in a 1-3 gallon pot are MUCH harder to cut than larger runs.
2. The 5 gallon pot w/thumper & condensor was advertised on Ebay for $300, I offered and bought it for $200. That's less than I saw most 3L/1gal alembics advertised for.
3. Since you have equipment ie thumper I ASSuME you could easily build a 2-4 gallon pot and incorporate your present thumper & cooling just to see if that size batch scratches the itch."
4. I have NO plan to tell anyone about my "hobby". As soon as I have enough to give, and the inclination to share, I plan on telling them I know a guy I'm doing some work for and he makes this stuff as a hobby. He gave me couple of bottles and I thought I'd share it"
:wtf: :wtf:
Last edited by TDick on Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jon1163
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Re: Down sizing

Post by jon1163 »

There's some calculators on the main distillers page that will help you determine how much you'll get. My Texas Public School math will be on display here but with a one gallon still you'll fill it about three-quarters full to avoid foaming - that's 3 quarts of wash or Mash. Let's say you have a 10% wash, you'll get about 80-90 % of that out of your stripping run. That's about 9 oz or about the volume of a normal soda can.

Now you run that about 10 times enough to charge your still with low wines and you'll get about roughly half a gallon of high wines... hearts are roughly 40% of your run generally speaking so I'd say a quarter of a gallon on your spirit run. That's about 2 pints of hearts. You'll have to collect in super small jars to make cuts.

You guys that know more correct me if I'm wrong but that's what I could figgur in my head in the time it took me to write this
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Re: Down sizing

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jon1163 wrote:There's some calculators on the main distillers page that will help you determine how much you'll get. My Texas Public School math will be on display here but with a one gallon still you'll fill it about three-quarters full to avoid foaming - that's 3 quarts of wash or Mash. Let's say you have a 10% wash, you'll get about 80-90 % of that out of your stripping run. That's about 9 oz or about the volume of a normal soda can.

Now you run that about 10 times enough to charge your still with low wines and you'll get about roughly half a gallon of high wines... hearts are roughly 40% of your run generally speaking so I'd say a quarter of a gallon on your spirit run. That's about 2 pints of hearts. You'll have to collect in super small jars to make cuts.

You guys that know more correct me if I'm wrong but that's what I could figgur in my head in the time it took me to write this
Yeah, yeah. That's what I MEANT to say!
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Re: Down sizing

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My motivations are experimental and making a great product I can enjoy. I have been doing this since I was about 9 with my grandfather(now 42). As for my cuts I use cut jars that are either half a pint or pint depending on the volume of my run. Once I have it cooled to room temp I can then separate my hearts from the rest of it. I’ve tried to do it while running but since I have chosen to go electric vs flame I have found it much harder to do so since the temps are harder to regulate. I will certainly look at a 2-3 gallon unit but don’t want to go any higher than that. In the past I have had no issues getting a 18-20 abv wash and suspect I can continue to get this. I have a fair amount of experience but have never downsized to this degree my grandfather and I always ran really large stills even my 8 gallon was tiny. Going smaller and switching to Alembic is going to be an adventure.


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Re: Down sizing

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I’d recommend keeping your 8gallon setup for running 5 or six gallon ferments. Very convenient size. I’m considering a larger boiler just for strips and also a smaller alembic (maybe 2.5gallon) for gins and infusions where I would run about a gallon of neutral infused and proofed down. I currently use a 13gal milehi boiler. Then I tell myself - naaah! Just keep working with whatcha got. It certainly works.

Cheers!
-j
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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Re: Down sizing

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jonnys_spirit wrote:I’d recommend keeping your 8gallon setup for running 5 or six gallon ferments. Very convenient size. I’m considering a larger boiler just for strips and also a smaller alembic (maybe 2.5gallon) for gins and infusions where I would run about a gallon of neutral infused and proofed down. I currently use a 13gal milehi boiler. Then I tell myself - naaah! Just keep working with whatcha got. It certainly works.

Cheers!
-j
Johnny, other than difficult to make the cuts what are additional drawbacks to going smaller? Any thoughts in the column vs no column and the location of the thermometer?


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Re: Down sizing

Post by sltm1 »

Been thinking about a small alembic myself, like you, I have a surplus of alcohol, but love the distilling process and want to do it in more reasonable quantities.
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Re: Down sizing

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sltm1 wrote:Been thinking about a small alembic myself, like you, I have a surplus of alcohol, but love the distilling process and want to do it in more reasonable quantities.
Exactly, so what decision criteria are you using?What size are you currently running and what size are you looking to convert to?


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Re: Down sizing

Post by sltm1 »

Right now I'm running a 7 gallon pot and want to go down to three gallon at most....been doing this a while so I'm not worried about making proper cuts.
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Re: Down sizing

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With the 3 gallon pot would you use external heat (Nuwave or propane) or an internal electric element?

I really don't like the internal electric as much as I thought I would. It's too hard to regulate (maybe I need a PID) but I like the simplicity of the internal element and the decreased fire possibility.

I experienced a still fire when I was 12, scared the hell out of me. My uncle left the still unattended and went to take a leak and didn't notice it leaking into the fire. It blew a hole in the side of the barn and caught the hay on fire.

The 3 gallon looks nice, I suppose if I used external heat so I didn't have to worry about dry firing my element, I could use it to do smaller batches as well.

Thoughts?
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Re: Down sizing

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BrewNewbie wrote:With the 3 gallon pot would you use external heat (Nuwave or propane) or an internal electric element?

I really don't like the internal electric as much as I thought I would. It's too hard to regulate (maybe I need a PID) but I like the simplicity of the internal element and the decreased fire possibility.

I experienced a still fire when I was 12, scared the hell out of me. My uncle left the still unattended and went to take a leak and didn't notice it leaking into the fire. It blew a hole in the side of the barn and caught the hay on fire.

The 3 gallon looks nice, I suppose if I used external heat so I didn't have to worry about dry firing my element, I could use it to do smaller batches as well.

Thoughts?
Ok first of all, temperature is useless on a pot still. Max heat until you get product coming out and then back off the heat until you get a small, pencil lead sized stream.

Secondly, it sounds like you don't have a great controller for your element. I bought a simple $15 pwm controller on eBay, and it's much finer control than propane. A PID won't work well, because it relies on temperature to adjust power input, and you can't run a pot still by temperature lol

Another thing, I know you might make good whiskey, but if you bring the sugar content down to where the alcohol content of the wash/mash is around 10%, I'm sure you'll be impressed with the results. Anything over 10% will stress the yeast, and cause off flavours in the ferment. That right there will cut your amount of drinking whiskey in half, BUT you'll have a better product.

If you still want another smaller still, think about what you have now. A 6 gallon ferment will get you about 1.5 gallons of 30% low wines after running it through your 8 gallon still. A perfect charge for a 2 gallon alembic. Cuts will be harder, I'd collect in 100ml jars at that size.
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get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
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Re: Down sizing

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Antler24 that is an interesting approach to max heat until you get it to temp. I was always taught to bring it up slowly. My current element has a fixed dial on the end of it that goes from 0-10 in 1/4 increments. I typically start it up at 3 and then slowly take it up to 4 where product typically starts and then as it starts to stall I turn it up a little more to keep it running. Once I get near 5 I have noticed is when my tails typically start at that point. I then bump it up just a little and let it run to get the rest of the alcohol out until I near 40 proof 20%. Then I shut it off and let it cool. Typically everything that has an off taste or smell goes into a jug to be rerun. I have noticed the cut off is usually around 120 proof where I start to get the off tastes and smells (this is likely due to the yeast vs. ABV issues you called out already). This will typically give me at least a gallon of likker or more before I hit this point.

As for the ABV yes I have noticed the taste is sacrificed a bit as I moved from the normal pot still head to the thumper. I bought a charcoal filter about the time I bumped it up the ABV from 10-15 and then finally to 20%. Running the spirit through the filter made a HUGE difference in the final product. I had expected a big difference in the quality of the likker unaged, but the real difference was in the likker once aged. It mellowed a lot better than I had expected. I may back it down and play with it as I embark on this new phase of my journey. I had honestly forgotten about the effect on the taste until you had brought it up, so thank you for the reminder.
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Re: Down sizing

Post by Antler24 »

BrewNewbie wrote:Antler24 that is an interesting approach to max heat until you get it to temp. I was always taught to bring it up slowly. My current element has a fixed dial on the end of it that goes from 0-10 in 1/4 increments. I typically start it up at 3 and then slowly take it up to 4 where product typically starts and then as it starts to stall I turn it up a little more to keep it running. Once I get near 5 I have noticed is when my tails typically start at that point. I then bump it up just a little and let it run to get the rest of the alcohol out until I near 40 proof 20%. Then I shut it off and let it cool. Typically everything that has an off taste or smell goes into a jug to be rerun. I have noticed the cut off is usually around 120 proof where I start to get the off tastes and smells (this is likely due to the yeast vs. ABV issues you called out already). This will typically give me at least a gallon of likker or more before I hit this point.

As for the ABV yes I have noticed the taste is sacrificed a bit as I moved from the normal pot still head to the thumper. I bought a charcoal filter about the time I bumped it up the ABV from 10-15 and then finally to 20%. Running the spirit through the filter made a HUGE difference in the final product. I had expected a big difference in the quality of the likker unaged, but the real difference was in the likker once aged. It mellowed a lot better than I had expected. I may back it down and play with it as I embark on this new phase of my journey. I had honestly forgotten about the effect on the taste until you had brought it up, so thank you for the reminder.

If you fermented to 10% you wouldn't need to carbon filter.

Your not accomplishing anything by running the still like that. Unless there is yeast or grain in the boiler you have no worry of scorching. I use a 5500w 240v element, and once it starts running I dial it back, then hardly touch the dial after that. Well into the tails it'll slow a little, but by that time I know it's all going in the feints jug, I crank it back to max and collect down to 10% fast as I can.
Swedish Pride wrote:
get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
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Re: Down sizing

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Well I’ll recharge the fermenter and try running it this way and see what the result is. In the meantime I’m still researching the 3 gal milk jug and some of the smaller 2.6-3 gal Alembic stills.


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Re: Down sizing

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BrewNewbie wrote:
jonnys_spirit wrote:I’d recommend keeping your 8gallon setup for running 5 or six gallon ferments. Very convenient size. I’m considering a larger boiler just for strips and also a smaller alembic (maybe 2.5gallon) for gins and infusions where I would run about a gallon of neutral infused and proofed down. I currently use a 13gal milehi boiler. Then I tell myself - naaah! Just keep working with whatcha got. It certainly works.

Cheers!
-j
Johnny, other than difficult to make the cuts what are additional drawbacks to going smaller? Any thoughts in the column vs no column and the location of the thermometer?


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Hi,

A couple other have mentioned that they feel your wash ABV is too high and this is pretty common practice around here based on the long term collective knowledge. Lower ABV in the mash / wash tends to not stress the yeast. Higher ABV in teh mash tends to stress the yeasties and they then produce off product.

More volume of lower ABV provides better product. I have been shooting for an SG of 1050 to 1070 and that seems to be better that 1090 - 1110 range in final product.

Producing enough product to have a good amount for long term ageing seems to require a certain size boiler. I'm doing a run of six 13g still charges which I am hoping will fill a 5g barrell for some longer term ageing. If I had a 30g capable still I could strip that amount in 2-3 runs and still use my smaller one for spirit runs...

I'll probably just stick with what I've got right now instead of getting all wound up about the equipment side of the thing. I have a simple pot still and am very happy with it's capability. I'm working on a neutral from some wheat and brandy feints and on distillation xxxx (#4 and it needs a couple more) - a CCVM column would make that one run but costs about 400 in parts... I may do that - then I'll need the smaller alembic for the gin batches - plus they look so cool!

Just my thoughts - good luck and stay safe!

Cheers,
j
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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Re: Down sizing

Post by raketemensch »

Unless you're running massive amounts, I don't think it's possible for a hobbyist to make "too much."

Everything that you produce gets better with age. At some point later in life you may get bored with producing, or just take a break, and the shine that you have stashed will come in very handy.
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Re: Down sizing

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Ok I charged a fermenter to 10%. I’ll test the quick heat up and the lower abv all at once.


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Re: Down sizing

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BrewNewbie wrote:Ok I charged a fermenter to 10%. I’ll test the quick heat up and the lower abv all at once.


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You'll be happier. I haven't carbon filtered since joining home distillers and have much better tasting product for the advice of some of the sages on this forum.
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Re: Down sizing

Post by TDick »

BrewNewbie wrote:Ok I charged a fermenter to 10%. I’ll test the quick heat up and the lower abv all at once.
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One area that I just don't get is when reading about the numbers.
I just don't get a picture of what that means.
Could you amplify that in N :mrgreen: :mrgreen: B talk?
:mrgreen: :econfused:
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Re: Down sizing

Post by sltm1 »

Chris, I didn't get what type of heat system you were running. We have about the same size still and I use an interior, 5500w element on a 120V outlet. So I'm getting 1375w which get's my still and thumper dripping into the parrot in an hour and a half, give or take. No controller and no problems.
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Re: Down sizing

Post by BrewNewbie »

According to the documentation, it is a 1500W electric element with an adjustable dial head from Mile Hi. It came with the 8 gal still when I purchased it back in 2014.
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Re: Down sizing

Post by jon1163 »

TDick wrote:
BrewNewbie wrote:Ok I charged a fermenter to 10%. I’ll test the quick heat up and the lower abv all at once.
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One area that I just don't get is when reading about the numbers.
I just don't get a picture of what that means.
Could you amplify that in N :mrgreen: :mrgreen: B talk?
:mrgreen: :econfused:
Tdick,
I'm not sure exactly what he meant by charging the fermenter to 10%. The only thing I can guess is that he means that he brought the starting gravity up to a point by adding sugar to where if it ferments dry he will have a 10% wash. But I could be wrong.

Here's one thing you can think about when you're talking about numbers. When I ferment I pretty much know based on my grain Bill what my starting gravity will be and I try to keep it below 1.1. Generally my starting gravity's are 1.055 to about 1.075.

You should be testing your a gravity's of your wash a few times throughout the fermenting process in my opinion. It allows you to see if your fermentation is working and it also allows you to calculate the percent alcohol in your watch.

To find the percent of alcohol in your wash you merely take the starting gravity minus the final gravity (or the gravity at the time you want to test) and then multiply by 131.

So a couple of scenarios.

1. You're starting gravity of your fermenter wash was 1.055 and now after 8 days it has stopped bubbling and you're almost positive it is done and ready to run. You test the final gravity and you find out that it is 1.00 and you want to know how much alcohol you will likely get from your stripping run so that you can go buy the correct number of mason jars.

131(1.055-1.00) =7.2%

So you have a 10 gallon ferment going. Round your percent wash up to the nearest 10 digit for ease of math ( I am a fan of rounding). And you have about 1 gallon of pure ethanol in that wash.

2. When you made your wash you tested your starting gravity and found that it was 1.06. On day two you measured your gravity and found that it was 1.055. You measured it again on day 5 and found that it was 1.035. You can rest assured that your wash is fermenting and you can even calculate about how much you're dropping per day so that you can figure out when you'll need to run.

I'm not sure if that's what you were asking about and if it's too much of a juvenile explanation I apologize.
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Re: Down sizing

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Thanks for the info Jon. I don't mind the child-like explanation. sometimes when I'm reading this early in the morning or late at night I need that type of explanation. As for a decision, I think I'm going to go for a 3-gallon milk can and an induction cooktop heating. This appears to be the most flexible alternative on a smaller scale. After talking to the folks at Mile Hi if I use an external heat source I can fill this still with 1-3 gallons with the only changes being in my heat up time and output. Given my method of making cuts, i don't anticipate any issues there. The smaller a load of wash the smaller the collections will be to help me with making the cuts. Pretty simple...

thank you, everyone, for the advice!
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Re: Down sizing

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BrewNewbie wrote:Thanks for the info Jon. I don't mind the child-like explanation. sometimes when I'm reading this early in the morning or late at night I need that type of explanation. As for a decision, I think I'm going to go for a 3-gallon milk can and an induction cooktop heating. This appears to be the most flexible alternative on a smaller scale. After talking to the folks at Mile Hi if I use an external heat source I can fill this still with 1-3 gallons with the only changes being in my heat up time and output. Given my method of making cuts, i don't anticipate any issues there. The smaller a load of wash the smaller the collections will be to help me with making the cuts. Pretty simple...

thank you, everyone, for the advice!
I've had three Stills now. The last one I built the boiler and Thumper myself . My second still was an 8 gallon milk can still with a 2in column from Mile High distilling. I called them several times about various things and always had wonderful customer support. I also thought their products are very well made. You should be happy with that in my opinion.
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