On or off the grain?

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Justinthunder
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On or off the grain?

Post by Justinthunder »

I know this is a massive debate. I have read a lot of threads on this and even more comments. Nothing is recent and I want to get opinions from people who are doing this now. 2005 threads are great but 2020 would be better. I recently made a corn and malted barley mash on the grain. When I was done I found myself taking a juice jug and dipping into my garbage can of wash and pouring it Through a cheese cloth and a double mesh strainer. It was a huge mess and at the end I was left with almost a 5 gallon pale of corn waste. If doing all this straining after I make the wash would come out just as great that would be awesome. Washing all my equipment once rather than twice and dealing with all that crap at the beginning rather than while I’m trying to distill would be even better
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tubbsy
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by tubbsy »

I fermented on-grain once and hated it. That was an all barley malt mash as well so I didn't have any extra gluggy grains to deal with. I'll never use corn in products I plan on drinking as I don't want to ruin them, so I'm a mash and sparge man now.

IMO, on-grain fermenting is only for those with steam powered kettles.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Setsumi »

i ferment on grain. i mostly use fine maize meal. sometimes i will do a 20% raw barley with the maize, but any more i struggle with filtering, the barley have a lot of protein in that gum the filter.

the reason i ferment on grain is i do not have a system to sparge 20kg fine maize meal and at 8% potential avb it is very stickey, if you get your hands wet it feels like syrup.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Expat »

I ferment on the grain, done plenty of all barley runs. Works just fine, no trace of the claimed tannins taste.

Mash, ferment, squeeze, run.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by silverbean »

IMO its all a balance of effort against reward, I know some build presses to squeeze every last ml out of the grain but I just siphon off all I can then tip the rest into a brew bag then leave it hanging over a pot overnight. A press might get another litre or so out but for me 49 litres or 51, not worth the effort. I tried sparging once, might again if I get all the right equipment.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by jayka »

I sparge but I'm only working with 10kg grain(probably 20kg once wet) I have a pulley in the roof so I can drag it out easy. Having said that I totally make enough mess sparging.
I haven't fermented OG but I did once have a gummed up rye mash I tried to press out and it made so much mess I was ready to throw in the towel. Can't see myself ever going down the OG path. Sparging is too easy and produces a great product full of flavour.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by 8Ball »

I ferment everything on the grain. I’m a proud member of the mop bucket club.

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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Justinthunder »

It was honestly my first run so I have nothing to compare with, I think I’m gonna buy a coarse sieve so I can pour my hot mash and collect all the large pieces, then pour through a cheese cloth bag to collect the fine pieces, should be ALOT less mess than before lol.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Expat »

Justinthunder wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:23 am It was honestly my first run so I have nothing to compare with, I think I’m gonna buy a coarse sieve so I can pour my hot mash and collect all the large pieces, then pour through a cheese cloth bag to collect the fine pieces, should be ALOT less mess than before lol.
One thing to keep in mind with this approach, you're loosing out on the continued conversion of starches beyond the initial mashing. The enzymes will keep working even at a slower pace, which helps if gelatinization or conversion was incomplete.

Either way the process can be messy. I'm with 8Ball, use a mop squeeze bucket.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Deplorable »

A $50 mop bucket is cheaper that a BOP big enough to cook and sparge 50 pounds of grain and water. No cook mashing on grain and squeezing with a mop bucket and strainer bags doesn't have to be messy.
I ferment on grain, pump off the clear into the boiler.
While thats stripping, put the mop bucket next to the fermenter, and scoop out the slop with a sauce pan into a paint strainer bag in the wringer. Press it, turn it, ×3 and dump it into a garbage bag next to the wringer and repeat. Liquid goes into bucket to settle of a day or so.
Doing this in the garage, I can sweep up any spilled squeezed grain. No real mess to deal with.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Justinthunder »

From what I’m gathering it’s better to do on the grain and just suck it up and clean up the mess lol. Thanks guys
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Lexluther45 »

Ferment on the grain and steam strip. You can hand squeeze or use a mop bucket if you only have a small amount, but try doing that with 110 pounds of grain and you will be at it for ever. Especially if you have several ferments running. Build yourself a steam stripping rig and you’ll never look back.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Expat »

Lexluther45 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:53 pm Ferment on the grain and steam strip. You can hand squeeze or use a mop bucket if you only have a small amount, but try doing that with 110 pounds of grain and you will be at it for ever. Especially if you have several ferments running. Build yourself a steam stripping rig and you’ll never look back.
100# of grain takes me about an hour.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

It’s even quicker and easier when your assistant squeezes.

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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by shadylane »

If the mash bill is mostly barley, I'll ferment off the grain.
It makes for a better Irish whiskey

Mostly I use corn and/or wheat for whiskey
Sparging that would be almost impossible.
That's where a proper steam rig is great.
Dump in the grain, cook, ferment and then steam strip it all in one.
It takes about 4 days, start to finish but requires very little work.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by still_stirrin »

I sparge 50% (unmalted) corn. And I use 15% unmalted wheat. Sure, it’s a PITA. But, the result is a very nice bourbon.

I ferment in carboys, so sparging and fermenting off the grain is my preferred process. It is definitely a challenge (Shady has appropriately said on numerous occasion, “never overlook corn’s ability to stick a mash”) and I whole heartedly agree...it is very difficult to get runoff from a high corn mash. But, my lauter system gives me a “fighting chance”. It’s tough...but can be done. It’s how I (chose to) do it.

Would I recommend it to another ... NO! ... unless you’re an experienced brewer. Then, maybe you can manage the lauter process with a high corn percentage in your mashbill. Maybe.

Bottomline (for my reply) is that “in can be done”. But, you’ll work to accomplish it. Lautering a bourbon mash (especially if you use rye in your recipe) would be very challenging. It works, but you’ll wish you hadn’t tried as you’re working to get through it.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by GreenEnvy22 »

I ferment on grain, then load it all into my basket wine press, and press all the liquid out. Let the result settle out for 24 hours, rack into kettle and run it.
Haven't tried with rye yet, but worked fine for barley, corn, and wheat.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Durhommer »

Deplorable wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:44 am A $50 mop bucket is cheaper that a BOP big enough to cook and sparge 50 pounds of grain and water. No cook mashing on grain and squeezing with a mop bucket and strainer bags doesn't have to be messy.
I ferment on grain, pump off the clear into the boiler.
While thats stripping, put the mop bucket next to the fermenter, and scoop out the slop with a sauce pan into a paint strainer bag in the wringer. Press it, turn it, ×3 and dump it into a garbage bag next to the wringer and repeat. Liquid goes into bucket to settle of a day or so.
Doing this in the garage, I can sweep up any spilled squeezed grain. No real mess to deal with.
I've done both ways I prefer off grain after this last one
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by zapata »

I sparge malt whiskies, then mix the spent grains with sugar water and ferment that on grain, kinda defeat the purpose, lol. I can run on grain, but if I didn't sparge then I wouldn't ever make sugar heads and malt sugar heads make great vodka/neutral/liquers/open bar bottles/wood experiments/etc.... but mostly I just sparge because that's what I decided one does with malt.

Best thing I ever did was go electric. Second best thing I ever did was the steam kettle. 3rd best was the steam injector. 4th best was grains in the thumper. Everything else ranks lower and I don't even use the last two any more. But if I had to strain non-malt whiskies again, I would ferment grain in and strain when finished, might as well get the flavor, gravity and conversion. It's gonna take time and make a mess anyway.
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Truckinbutch »

Deplorable wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:44 am A $50 mop bucket is cheaper that a BOP big enough to cook and sparge 50 pounds of grain and water. No cook mashing on grain and squeezing with a mop bucket and strainer bags doesn't have to be messy.
I ferment on grain, pump off the clear into the boiler.
While thats stripping, put the mop bucket next to the fermenter, and scoop out the slop with a sauce pan into a paint strainer bag in the wringer. Press it, turn it, ×3 and dump it into a garbage bag next to the wringer and repeat. Liquid goes into bucket to settle of a day or so.
Doing this in the garage, I can sweep up any spilled squeezed grain. No real mess to deal with.
That's how I do it ; including 3 squeezes on each bag .
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by Deplorable »

Truckinbutch wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:45 pm
Deplorable wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:44 am A $50 mop bucket is cheaper that a BOP big enough to cook and sparge 50 pounds of grain and water. No cook mashing on grain and squeezing with a mop bucket and strainer bags doesn't have to be messy.
I ferment on grain, pump off the clear into the boiler.
While thats stripping, put the mop bucket next to the fermenter, and scoop out the slop with a sauce pan into a paint strainer bag in the wringer. Press it, turn it, ×3 and dump it into a garbage bag next to the wringer and repeat. Liquid goes into bucket to settle of a day or so.
Doing this in the garage, I can sweep up any spilled squeezed grain. No real mess to deal with.
That's how I do it ; including 3 squeezes on each bag .
There ought to be a "Tried and True Processes" subsection here. :wink:
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Re: On or off the grain?

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

I ferment on grain.
Then dump in the thumper
Then steam thump the hell out of it
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