Mechanical anti/defoamer

[Power_Man]

Maybe mechanical is the wrong word.

In my head as I sit here and watch my buccaneer bobs wash puke out my 15 gal ‘stil.

I’ve used butter and it helps. Does it cure it 100%? No. I run 10 gal in the still which is 2/3 and put in a few TBS of butter. But the wife looks at me when I take butter out to the shop with a weird look. Lol

Any how back to my question...


Has any one build a boiler, but put in a perforated layer?

Such as copper plate with a bunch of holes, or stainless?

I know you can buy agents, but I was just trying to keep any additives out of the wash. Including butter.

[Chauncey]

A slobber box or an adaptation thereof would probably help.

[still_stirrin]

Try turning the heat down. I know you’re just wanting to get through the run, but if it’s puking that bad, slow down.

And if that doesn’t satisfy you, just plan for it to puke. I mean, plan to do a spirit run AFTER collecting the low wines. The crud you puke into the low wines will be left behind in the boiler on the 2nd (spirit) run. So, a little carryover on the stripping run isn’t that important, unless the puke is dangerous to you equipment, ie - potentially able to cause a plug in your worm (I assume you have a gas fired potstill with a worm in a flake. Am I right?).

Finally, to answer the question of “why is it puking so bad?”, well, I believe you didn’t let it ferment out long enough. If you’re using raw molasses, there are a lot of solids in the molly which will carry over in the boiler. If under attenuated, theses solids will cling to sugar molecules when boiling, like shaking up a soda before opening the can. Letting the wash attenuate better will help reduce the carryover because there are fewer long-chain molecules left in the wash. It won’t completely guarantee no puke potential, but it will help a lot.

It sounds like you have a mess to work through. But as long as it doesn’t pose a danger to plugging, then eventually the puke will clean itself out of your stillhead later in the run, or possibly the subsequent (spirit) run.

Good luck. Be safe, responsible, and discrete.
ss

[still_stirrin]

Has any one build a boiler, but put in a perforated layer?

And that idea is a disaster waiting to happen. A “screen” with puke plugged holes is a “bomb”. As Chauncey suggest, a “slobber box” is a better alternative to “catch” the puking wash.
ss

[Power_Man]

Try turning the heat down. I know you’re just wanting to get through the run, but if it’s puking that bad, slow down.

And if that doesn’t satisfy you, just plan for it to puke. I mean, plan to do a spirit run AFTER collecting the low wines. The crud you puke into the low wines will be left behind in the boiler on the 2nd (spirit) run. So, a little carryover on the stripping run isn’t that important, unless the puke is dangerous to you equipment, ie - potentially able to cause a plug in your worm (I assume you have a gas fired potstill with a worm in a flake. Am I right?).

Finally, to answer the question of “why is it puking so bad?”, well, I believe you didn’t let it ferment out long enough. If you’re using raw molasses, there are a lot of solids in the molly which will carry over in the boiler. If under attenuated, theses solids will cling to sugar molecules when boiling, like shaking up a soda before opening the can. Letting the wash attenuate better will help reduce the carryover because there are fewer long-chain molecules left in the wash. It won’t completely guarantee no puke potential, but it will help a lot.

It sounds like you have a mess to work through. But as long as it doesn’t pose a danger to plugging, then eventually the puke will clean itself out of your stillhead later in the run, or possibly the subsequent (spirit) run.

Good luck. Be safe, responsible, and discrete.
ss

For the most part I do. I was just trying to think of a simple solution. I know I’m not the only one. While searching for my answer to the question I noticed a lot of people having a hell of a time with it.

Just something for the foam/bubbles to touch and “pop”.

Yes, I also understand that I can run it in spirit run. But I just like the clean of puke free low wines.

I tasted the wash, and it was pretty bitter. I let it ferment out 3-4 weeks. It was a long time.

Not a big deal. Just wondered if it had ever been done.

Cheers

[StillerBoy]

In my head as I sit here and watch my buccaneer bobs wash puke out my 15 gal ‘stil.

What was the Ph of your wash.. a Ph of 4 will reduce foaming / puking vera a wash of 4.5..

Reduce your overall power input some as the boiler comes up in heat, plus do a heat break for about 5 min at the first drop..

And anti foam works better than butter or oils..

Degassing the wash well, and allowing the wash to clear some will also assist in reducing foaming / puking...

Just some of the methods that reduces foaming/puking in any wash that has unfinished fermenting sugar or as in rum unfermented sugar..

Mars

[rubberduck71]

Complete noob perspective here: isn't puking also caused by surface tension adhesion (from above mentioned residual sugars left in still charge) that can be mitigated by marbles and/or ceramic boil enhancers? Granted a 15 gal boiler is dang deep... so not sure if it's a viable option...

[StillerBoy]

isn't puking also caused by surface tension adhesion (from above mentioned residual sugars left in still charge) that can be mitigated by marbles and/or ceramic boil enhancers? Granted a 15 gal boiler is dang deep... so not sure if it's a viable option...

The issue with this thinking is that you are looking at the issue/problem after the fact, but that not the way of resolving the issue/problem..

The issue of most puking is unfinished fermented sugars or unfermentable sugars.. so that means it start in the wash making.. eliminate the issue/problem there, and there is no issue with puking.. it's that simple thing, paying attention to what caused it is the work..

The issue is always wash related ingredient created.. it's where it starts, there, so one has to figure what cause it.. all the methods I mention in the post about are only useful at helping reduce a cause created before in the wash.. and if a wash is done properly, there is very little issue with foaming / puking..

Mars

[tubbsy]

isn't puking also caused by surface tension adhesion (from above mentioned residual sugars left in still charge) that can be mitigated by marbles and/or ceramic boil enhancers? Granted a 15 gal boiler is dang deep... so not sure if it's a viable option...

The issue with this thinking is that you are looking at the issue/problem after the fact, but that not the way of resolving the issue/problem..

The issue of most puking is unfinished fermented sugars or unfermentable sugars.. so that means it start in the wash making.. eliminate the issue/problem there, and there is no issue with puking.. it's that simple thing, paying attention to what caused it is the work..

The issue is always wash related ingredient created.. it's where it starts, there, so one has to figure what cause it.. all the methods I mention in the post about are only useful at helping reduce a cause created before in the wash.. and if a wash is done properly, there is very little issue with foaming / puking..

Mars

The OP is making rum. There is nothing you can do about the unfermentable sugars, so asking for advise to better manage the inevitable foaming seems to me a reasonable thing to do.

[NZChris]

You could go to the trouble of building a better still head, adding a slobber box or cyclone, or you could just slow down.

I have gone to the trouble of leaving the still head off while starting and waiting until the foam reaches the top, then turning the heat off and spraying it down with a fine water mist. It works quite well, but because I can't be bothered pulling the head off three or four times in a day, I don't bother any more. I cut the power for two minutes, then restart at lower amps. Repeat if it pukes again.
I quite often spirit run with a healthy dose of saved wash in the low wines, so a bit of puke is insignificant really.

I use about half a tablespoon of butter, but still get the odd puke.

[StillerBoy]

The OP is making rum. There is nothing you can do about the unfermentable sugars, so asking for advise to better manage the inevitable foaming seems to me a reasonable thing to do.

Tubby.. you are also missing the point of the issue, as the original poster..

Yes there are thing that can be done, as Chris has mention.. but one has to learn what those issue that cause the puking to happen.. otherwise you are not learning..

Learn to recognize what the issues are, and manage them accordingly,as stated in my prior post, as foam / puking is not an issue for me..

Two situation making puking / foaming an issue... rum with unfermentable sugars, and making an all malted barley or high malted barley recipt.. but once understand, they are no problem stripping them..

It's called being mindful to details.. plain and simple.. learning to recognize details is what it's about, and that comes about from making / taking notes..

Mars

[shadylane]

Has any one build a boiler, but put in a perforated layer?

Such as copper plate with a bunch of holes, or stainless?

A while back, while I was bored
I used a really big wad of copper mesh, that hung below the 4" triclamp outlet on the boiler.
After the mesh and expandable frame work was pushed through the 4" hole into the boiler
I used a home made tool to fluff it up a whole bunch.
The idea being to have the copper mesh on top the boiler charge.
I wasn't thinking about it using it for antipuking
I was thinking about getting the most vapor to copper contact.

On a side note
To answer your question
Yes, I've seen straw used to do the job.
Give me a minute or ten and I'll try to find the video.

edited
It was used on the last video on this post
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=76359&start=30

[tubbsy]

The OP is making rum. There is nothing you can do about the unfermentable sugars, so asking for advise to better manage the inevitable foaming seems to me a reasonable thing to do.

Tubby.. you are also missing the point of the issue, as the original poster..

Yes there are thing that can be done, as Chris has mention.. but one has to learn what those issue that cause the puking to happen.. otherwise you are not learning..

Learn to recognize what the issues are, and manage them accordingly,as stated in my prior post, as foam / puking is not an issue for me..

Two situation making puking / foaming an issue... rum with unfermentable sugars, and making an all malted barley or high malted barley recipt.. but once understand, they are no problem stripping them..

It's called being mindful to details.. plain and simple.. learning to recognize details is what it's about, and that comes about from making / taking notes..

Mars

Mars, with respect, it is you who is missing the point. There is no point talking about modifying your mashing and/or fermenting procedure if you are making rum. Rum will foam and maybe puke unless you run slower. Based on the talk of butter in the OP, they are aware of this. The question was, can a mechanical device be used to control this foaming?

[StillerBoy]

Mars, with respect, it is you who is missing the point. There is no point talking about modifying your mashing and/or fermenting procedure if you are making rum. Rum will foam and maybe puke unless you run slower.

That's exactly was you are missing.. failure to understand how a wash is made and its behaviors.. anyone can mix water, sugar and molasses, but learning how to do right is in the details..

Rum will not foam and puking if one has understanding of how to do it properly.. learn how a wash behaves and you will be able to control its behavior.. and that applies to any fermentation.. very simple.. but to learn to understand what it requires, well, that the learning and doing.. paying attention to details is what it's about, not repeating or accepting what others have stated..

The original poster of the thread encountered foam / puking only because of his lack of knowledge on the behavior of what he was doing.. he cause the issue / problem, no one else did.. simple.. it's called learning by experiencing..

Mars

[tubbsy]

Mars, can you share your secrets to making a rum wash that doesn't foam/puke?

[Power_Man]

Has any one build a boiler, but put in a perforated layer?

Such as copper plate with a bunch of holes, or stainless?

A while back, while I was bored
I used a really big wad of copper mesh, that hung below the 4" triclamp outlet on the boiler.
After the mesh and expandable frame work was pushed through the 4" hole into the boiler
I used a home made tool to fluff it up a whole bunch.
The idea being to have the copper mesh on top the boiler charge.
I wasn't thinking about it using it for antipuking
I was thinking about getting the most vapor to copper contact.

On a side note
To answer your question
Yes, I've seen straw used to do the job.
Give me a minute or ten and I'll try to find the video.

edited
It was used on this still
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=76359&start=30

So, did your mesh “nest” in the pot control the foam?

[Power_Man]

Mars, with respect, it is you who is missing the point. There is no point talking about modifying your mashing and/or fermenting procedure if you are making rum. Rum will foam and maybe puke unless you run slower.

That's exactly was you are missing.. failure to understand how a wash is made and its behaviors.. anyone can mix water, sugar and molasses, but learning how to do right is in the details..

Rum will not foam and puking if one has understanding of how to do it properly.. learn how a wash behaves and you will be able to control its behavior.. and that applies to any fermentation.. very simple.. but to learn to understand what it requires, well, that the learning and doing.. paying attention to details is what it's about, not repeating or accepting what others have stated..

The original poster of the thread encountered foam / puking only because of his lack of knowledge on the behavior of what he was doing.. he cause the issue / problem, no one else did.. simple.. it's called learning by experiencing..

Mars

Buccaneer bobs recipe is pretty high on the tried and tried recipe.

Am I still new? Yes. Even after running 250gal of wash, I know still stuff to learn.

It’s easy to sit behind a computer and say I’m doing shit wrong.
But your not saying how to do it right like tubbsy is saying.

[shadylane]

The original poster of the thread encountered foam / puking only because of his lack of knowledge on the behavior of what he was doing.. he cause the issue / problem, no one else did.. simple.. it's called learning by experiencing..

Mars

The OP is Power_Man
He asked a legitimate question in the novice section.

[shadylane]

So, did your mesh “nest” in the pot control the foam?

I didn't turn the power up to find out.
I was attempting an amateurish test run on the value of copper at the liquid to vapor surface.

[tubbsy]

I know they use rotating paddles in the washbacks of Scottish distilleries. Not sure a mesh screen will work though. Might knock down some foam initially, but once the foam overcomes that you're back where you started. I always have a roll of copper mesh at the base of my riser for extra copper contact. I haven't noticed any increased foaming when I forget to put it in.

My nutty professor thinking imagined a turbine of sorts, powered by the rising vapour in the riser with a light-weight paddle on the bottom end of the shaft. Problem will be whether the vapour is travelling fast enough, and if I can get a frictionless bearing for the shaft.

[shadylane]

When cooking food on a store, a pot that's constantly stirred is less likely to boil over.
I recon it would be the same on a pot full of rum wash.
Next thought would be some form of slobber box.
Using mesh or other ideas might work, but I'm getting too lazy to find out anymore.

[Power_Man]

I assume that the same with most. We know how to cope with the issue(some know how to fix it, but is a close guarded secret), but is more time and work than is needed to make something to deal with it.

I have friends in the fabrication biz, and was going to have a new stil build out of 2 beer kegs. Was just wondering if something could be added to help with puking.

Thanks guys.

Cheers

[shadylane]

Here's a better link to the Youtube video of straw in the cap being used for antifoam
Looks like it worked considering the still it was used on would be likely to puke

[HDNB]

i've puked an all grain with the grain in it through sieve plates. it was a total shitshow. don't do it. it won't work, won't help and likely make it worse.

a full boiler agitator will help and also mitigates smearing imho. you can still puke if it's too full or too hot too fast. slow down, leave headroom and continuously agitate does work.

i use a 3500rpm motor on 100:1 gear reduction and a two vane paddle

[AlWorms]

I did a stripping run on the weekend, it was my first ever all-molasses (feed grade) Rum wash...

I had masses of foam and a puke before I even got close to boiling

I dropped the power back (from 2400W to 1500W in my keg boiler), dropped in some butter, and it happened again

Then I took the top cap off my CCVM column, and poked a thin stainless rod in there and wiggled it around for a while, and the foam was kept at bay!

After refitting the cap, I got some distillate out, I cranked back up to 2400Watts and was fine for the rest of the run at full power.

I was wondering about making a sort of wavy screw to drop into the column from the top, that I could motorise.

Another option I am thinking about is a "semi-continuous" arrangement - start the still off only half to two-thirds full, and once it's boiling, slowly feed in the additional wash, without removing the spent stuff - it's only a stripping run, which I don't remove fores or do cuts on anyway.

The advantage of the reduced initial fill is two-fold; reduced heat up time at the lower power and much more head space for foaming.

[StillerBoy]

It’s easy to sit behind a computer and say I’m doing shit wrong.
But your not saying how to do it right like tubbsy is saying.

We know how to cope with the issue(some know how to fix it, but is a close guarded secret)

What is there to say, I read frustration for not being spoonfeeded, other than that, there is no "close guarded secret" as the answers and info are all here in HD and some have been provided in the this thread... what you want is to be spoonfeeded.. nothing will be learned by that method..

Being quick to be critical and judgmental certainly will not be helpful to you and your mind.. and wanting or hoping that a mechanical tool can be made to replace having to learn to do a wash properly is not the way forward either..

Don't ask for the answer from someone else, but ask for the guidance and answer from your mind.. it will provide it all to the questioner.. by asking for the answer of someone else, you will never develop the mind to work for you, as it has all the answers..

As I have mention many a time on HD, the issues created in a ferment are started in the construction of the wash before the ferment is activated, and this applies to all wash / mashes.. what that means is, the right ingredients that the yeast requires to do its task, to much or to little or relaying on what others have stated that molasses provide all the necessary ingredients, may not always correct for the yeast.. the right fermenting temp preferred by the yeast used, as a few degrees off on the low side will change the fermentation behavior and the yeast will take their time and may never finish the task.. having a stable fermentation temp during that period is very important to the yeast.. addressing the Ph at the right times in the first 24 hrs, will affect the fermentation behavior of the yeast, and having the right Ph level at the finish of the ferment will affect the foaming issue at the stripping phase.. also degassing the wash during the fermentation, at the near end of it fermentation, and at the after it has been racked off its lee, will greatly assist having a ferment finishing dry ..

But the most important thing I can say is, take the time to make notes, not just of the ingredients used, but throughout the ferment process, observe what is happen first 10 hrs, at the 24 hr mark, and so on until finished.. and log all the info collected, then make one little change and see what happens.. just don't relie on your memory, as it will be of no good at the detail level, a major problem with almost all beginners..

Mars

[Power_Man]

It’s easy to sit behind a computer and say I’m doing shit wrong.
But your not saying how to do it right like tubbsy is saying.

We know how to cope with the issue(some know how to fix it, but is a close guarded secret)

What is there to say, I read frustration for not being spoonfeeded, other than that, there is no "close guarded secret" as the answers and info are all here in HD and some have been provided in the this thread... what you want is to be spoonfeeded.. nothing will be learned by that method..

Being quick to be critical and judgmental certainly will not be helpful to you and your mind.. and wanting or hoping that a mechanical tool can be made to replace having to learn to do a wash properly is not the way forward either..

Don't ask for the answer from someone else, but ask for the guidance and answer from your mind.. it will provide it all to the questioner.. by asking for the answer of someone else, you will never develop the mind to work for you, as it has all the answers..

As I have mention many a time on HD, the issues created in a ferment are started in the construction of the wash before the ferment is activated, and this applies to all wash / mashes.. what that means is, the right ingredients that the yeast requires to do its task, to much or to little or relaying on what others have stated that molasses provide all the necessary ingredients, may not always correct for the yeast.. the right fermenting temp preferred by the yeast used, as a few degrees off on the low side will change the fermentation behavior and the yeast will take their time and may never finish the task.. having a stable fermentation temp during that period is very important to the yeast.. addressing the Ph at the right times in the first 24 hrs, will affect the fermentation behavior of the yeast, and having the right Ph level at the finish of the ferment will affect the foaming issue at the stripping phase.. also degassing the wash during the fermentation, at the near end of it fermentation, and at the after it has been racked off its lee, will greatly assist having a ferment finishing dry ..

But the most important thing I can say is, take the time to make notes, not just of the ingredients used, but throughout the ferment process, observe what is happen first 10 hrs, at the 24 hr mark, and so on until finished.. and log all the info collected, then make one little change and see what happens.. just don't relie on your memory, as it will be of no good at the detail level, a major problem with almost all beginners..

Mars

Your on this kick that I asked how to make a perfect wash or how to make a wash so it doesn’t puke. Nope, I didn’t.
I never once asked how to make a wash.

It was a simple question if anyone has ever made a device to stop the still from puking.

Once again, I thank every one that has given suggestions.

I really think that fire still with straw is awesome and wonder why it doesn’t push past it.

[jayka]

This sounds like a pretty legit idea to me. So long as you don't distill OG I don't see how it would get blocked and you could even rub the mesh with a little butter to help break the surface tension. Just tack a few small L brackets for the mesh to sit on and your good to go.

[jayka]

I have a Brewzilla which I use for mashing not distilling but it has a recirculation pump which sucks from the bottom and pumps out at the top. If you were to have this setup inside a closed unit the constant flow could break the surface tension enough to stop the foaming. However it's would be a lot of work for a maybe. I think the mesh idea would be a cheaper mod to try and easy enough to reverse if it didn't work.