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Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:11 pm
by Northgamtns
Do I need to have fresh water constantly running in and flowing out of the worm my copper worm is in? I am using a 6 gal SS pot still, 1" copper, and 3/8" worm in a 5 gal bucket.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:42 pm
by elvis christ
I don't understand the question. Do you need to have water running through the bucket that the worm is in? Not necessarily, it helps, as the hot water will rise to the top of the cold water, and your condensing won't start to happen, until further down the coil. You can also just stir the water with your hand.

If you have your worm inside another pipe, then yes, you will need to have water flowing through the pipe that holds the worm.
Do I need to have fresh water constantly running in and flowing out of the worm my copper worm is in
:?

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:16 pm
by Northgamtns
Sorry I meant flowing out of the BUCKET my worm is in, but yes thats my question do I need to have it constantly as cold as possible? or can i just fill the bucket with ice in there around the copper worm and it be ok until the time it melts

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:05 pm
by Hawke
It all depends on the size of the bucket.
20 feet of 1/2 inch I.D. worm, in a 15 gallon 'bucket', will have enough capacity to do a run with just water.
If that same worm is in a 5 gallon bucket, it's gonna need help.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:46 am
by HookLine
And if you are going to replace the water, it is better to bring the cold water into the bottom, and take the hot off the top. Better to have the coolant flowing in the opposite direction to the vapour.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:19 am
by Hack
I've used a 3/8" worm in a five gallon bucket before with my keg boiler. I didn't have to add any water, or circulate it. Now I run 5/8" copper in a six gallon bucket and even running over a gallon an hour collection rate I don't need to add water. The top few inches of water get hot, but the water at the bottom stays cold and the distillate comes out cold.

I built my worm bucket with an overflow tube, so I could add water if it got too hot and not make a mess. I'd say try your worm without circulating the water and keep an extra bucket on hand. As long as no vapor is escaping the end of the worm you're fine. I'll bet you don't even get close to overwhelming your worm and the distillate will come out cool.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:36 am
by elvis christ
Something I was thinking about trying was ice, water, and salt in my condenser. You know, like when you're making home-made ice cream.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:32 am
by Tater
Dont think ya want the salt water on your copper.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:43 am
by goose eye
yup salt an copper aint friends

so im tole

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:11 am
by elvis christ
Ahhh, good point.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:32 am
by scarecrow
Copper pipes are actually used to transport seawater. And they have about a 15-20 year life span. The oxide formed on the surface of copper should protect it.

I would be more worried about galvanic corrosion from dissimilar metals. Never have aluminium in contact with stainless or brass in the presence of salt water. I don't know how copper and silver solder go, but they are far enough apart on the galvanic table to be a concern.

The only effect salt water would have on copper is by abraison of solids passed through the copper pipes at high velocity, which we don't do.

Copper will also corrode under acid conditions in the persence of chlorine, but this is something we also don't do.

They used to nail copper sheets to the hulls of boats to give them protection from marine fouling.

That's my understanding of copper and salt water.

scarecrow

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:13 pm
by Northgamtns
So maybe try just straight ice, and if it melts, and temp rises, I can just siphon off top part of water and replace with cold water and ice.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:12 pm
by Hawke
You don't need ice. And, you don't want to disturb the temperature gradiant in the bucket. If you need to add water, the inlet should be at the bottom of the bucket, with an overflow at the top.
Here is how I set up my flake stand. (Worm in a bucket)
Notice the inlet at the bottom and the overflow at the top. Water is cheap and plentiful for me, but I don't like to waste it. When running, I trickle water into the bottom of this at a rate of about 1 litre per hour.
Image

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:28 pm
by blanikdog
I used to do the same as Hawke suggested, but found that it wasn't necessary to run cold water into my 20litre bucket. After a twenty five litre run the water at the top is hot and gradually cools to whatever water temperature is. Nice steady cool, and the same water can be use many, many times. You don't need ice.

blanik

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:38 pm
by Hawke
At the moment, my problem is an ambiant temp of about 105*F in the shop. Was about 115 yesterday. :shock: My well water is a steady 55*F. The weeds in the garden appreciate the extra water. :lol:

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:58 pm
by goose eye
hawke what you keepin the worm off the side with.is it that nut.
seen some barrels with valve there at water inlet to adjust water flow instead of havein to walk.
nice lookin coolin barel

scarecrow thanks for setin me streight

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:54 am
by elvis christ
Question for Hawke: You said you don't want to disturb the temperature gradient in the bucket. Does that mean that I should refrain from stirring the water when there is hot water on top? I've been stirring the water every once in a while, to try to keep it at the same temp throughout.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:07 am
by goose eye
you want it layered. cold in bottom up to hot so it pushin the hot out the over flow. ole boys wait to
add water til barell is hot 1/2 way down. dependin on how hot you cookin you ajust the water value
to keep it that way. the water comein out overflow could be 100+. this is on a one barel outfit
so mite not be true to you

so im tole

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:26 am
by elvis christ
Yeah, I'm not circulating any water (yet), I'm just using a 5 gallon bucket, so no overflow. I'll try to keep it layered next time.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:09 am
by Hawke
Goose, The outlet is soldered in and there are a couple of support rods soldered to the worm with 'feet' at the bottom. The nut is the union to the lyne arm.
It's not in the picture, but I use one of those in-line hose valves to control the water.

With the amount of water that I'm running, I get a bit of steam off the top during a run, while the bottom is cold.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:34 am
by plonker
Hey Hawke, I lived in the tropics for several years.. I like the sound of those temps..... :D
Sure beats 4 C or 40F

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:33 pm
by myles
I have not used the worm in bucket condenser as I use Libigs and a pump on a big rainwater store.

But I have read lots of people that say if the bucket is the same size as the boiler, it is a big enough heat sink to do an entire run without topping up. And do not stir. Have seen some nice setups that use the worm in bucket system - but they all have decent size buckets.

Copied this image from a different topic but think it is nice!!! Is this a good indication of reasonable proportions for worm to bucket to boiler????

Image

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:41 pm
by myles
Sorry forgot to include this one also:

Image

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:58 pm
by blanikdog
I guess that that would make a difference, hawke. Once it reaches that sort of ambient temperature the last thing on my mind is distilling. :)

It's getting on towards bush fire season here. 'They' predict worse fires than last year when 173 people died and - from memory - thousands of houses destroyed. Something to look forward to. :((

blanik

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:48 pm
by HookLine
Right in the peak of fire season here. So far so good.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:36 pm
by blanikdog
HookLine wrote:Right in the peak of fire season here. So far so good.
A little off topic, but good luck stay with you, Hook.

blanik

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:03 am
by goose eye
myles ole boy wish you would of tole there pa they didnt need him dippin when he was young.
ole boys dont no bout nothin but there outfit but like they tole me an im tellin you
the likker comein out toward the middle an on to the end of the charge will be hot an i dont mean warm.
hot likker dont taste smell an feel the same like cold. how you supose to tell when backin is comein on.

im bettin that outfit in that picture they addin water.

so im tole

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:16 am
by Hawke
goose eye wrote:im bettin that outfit in that picture they addin water.

so im tole
Yep, in the first pic, you can see the overflow and water pipe that drops into the vat.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:38 am
by myles
I can see the sense in having a gradual inflow of water from the bottom to overflow the hot water from the top. That seems sensible.

Do any of you bother putting anything in your water to stop it going stagnant and smelly, or do you periodically flush it out and refill with clean water?

I quite like the idea of a worm in bucket condenser combined with a slow recirculation of water from a bigger water store.

Re: Is fresh water needed for copper worm?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:47 am
by HookLine
If you are running your still fairly regularly, the heat will keep the cooling water pretty free of living critters. Then just cover it when not running, keep out the light, dust, etc. Should get a few runs from a single barrel of water, with the occasional top up.