Thermometer on a pot still?

Simple pot still distillation and construction with thumpers and without..

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Re: Thermometer on a pot still? w/Thumper

Postby ItsAJackal » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:29 am

Have a quick question.

I just introduced myself in the other forum, as I am brand new to the hobby and very excited about building my first pot still and distillin.

I wanted to incorporate a thermometer just to be absolutely sure about the foreshots, heads, and where the middle and tail runs are.

I also wanted to use a thumper in my design. So the basic SS pot, copper tubing to a thumper, then thumper to worm, then out.

Where would you put the thermometer here? If I put it after the pot but before the thumper, won't my readings be incorrect? I was planning on using the same mash in the thumper as is in the pot, so should it actually be between the thumper and worm?

Thanks all, can't wait!
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Dnderhead » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:08 am

I whould think in the head of the of the thumper, but no matter where you put a thermometer in a pot still
its going to be as handy as a pockit in your underwear. learn to make cuts by taste and smell.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Usge » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:22 am

The only way to know where those cuts are is to taste. A pot runs itself. The starting temp is determined by the overall abv of what you start with in the pot. As the alc depletes the temp rises naturally. It can be different every single run and there is no manipulation to be done with it..and it can't tell you if 77% is still heads/middles or where tails begin. It's strictly a monitoring device...and as such...a hydrometer is a "generally" more reliable one. I would skip the therm and use a parrot / hydrometer to monitor output. Particularly if you are using a thumper. But, as Dnder said...you are still going to have to taste it to determine where your cuts are.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Hack » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:04 am

A thermometer on a pot still is only useful in a general way. Simply put, it won't give enough accuracy to be able to rely on it to make cuts. It will tell you the temperature of the vapor in the column, and from this you can infer the alcohol content of the vapor. However where to make the heads and tails cuts from this will vary depending, on the starting abv of the wash in the boiler, and how hard you are running the heat, add a thumper to this and it gets more complicated. If you still feel you need a thermometer and are using a thumper, put it on the column of the thumper. If it was me, I'd leave it out and focus on learning how to make cuts by taste and smell. Making cuts by taste and smell is the most reliable method and works no matter what because it eliminates all the variables of what's going on with the still and the wash. There is good information on how to do this in the stickys in the novice section. One of the best is the first post in the "distilling advice" stickie.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Kiwi-lembic » Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:30 pm

ScottishBoy wrote:Personally, I think its a matter of personal choice. Its kind of like having amp and oil pressure and and volt meters in your car. It might not serve much of a purpose to some folks, but others like to monitor and it does give them something to do. I recently added a thermometer to the top of my condenser unit and I kinda like seeing the temps change. It gives me something to do while Im waiting.
I have noted a tendency for some folks to despise them after they "master the technique". Once again, this is a personal preference.

If you want the thermo, put it in. If not then dont.
As long as it helps you with what your doing, who is anyone to judge?

Besides..this is supposed to be fun! ;) If you want a few extra strobes in your disco, then go for it!


nice answer scottish ..read the whole post ..it is like a thousand gardners thousand theorys isnt it
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby ScottishBoy » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:49 am

Surprisingly, this subject is one of the hot topics. The feelings that this subject creates can be quite powerful and there are people in both camps.
In defense of one camp, its an easy way to learn to drive your still and it does give you something to do.
In defense of the other, the pot still is the simplest thing in the world and being able to drive without a thermo is a big plus.

Both sides are valid in their positions.

But...it is a double edged sword. I think it should be stated that it is acceptable, but you run the risk of becoming dependant on it. Its easy to fall into the "cut here and stop here" routine, but thats not what gets you great whiskey. At best, that will get you cookie cutter whisky which is just a few points above the commercial crap. While you can make some "okay" whiskey that way, your true great works will come from a lot of interaction and involvement in the product. Whisky cannot be made without love. A Thermo COULD put a little isolation/distance in that interaction.
Since it is the goal of nearly everyone here to make the finest whisky possible, many will tell you to simply not do it because of the risk of becoming dependant on "just making your cuts by ABV and temp". We all hope that our fellows will learn to make fine whiskey and they want to maximise your chances of doing so.

So, If you do it, then install it with the idea that this is something you will WANT to loose...like training wheels...:)
If things are going in the right direction you will reference it less and less, forget to even turn it one a few times, and then one day you will say to yourself "I think I will stick some wire in that hole and seal it up." If things are going wrong, you will find yourself still watching your thermo on your 20th batch and thinking " Yes I will start collecting hearts after it reaches XXX.X". Sadness, apathy and mediocre whisky are now your legacy.
The choice is, as always. yours and yours alone.
The truth is this may never be settled, but this is my attempt at a midpoint.

Hopefully that can satisfy both camps and we can continue with the pursuit of the best whisky we can possibly make!
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Usge » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:31 am

The issue is this:
Pot stills are different from reflux stills and they don't separate various boiling point fractions cleanly. They also vary a lot. As a result, you'll get different advice about temp/therms for any given run. I've pulled tails at 77%, I've pulled heads at 77%...to the thermometer (or hydrometer for that matter) it's "exactly" the same thing.

So, the point is this....use whatever you want or find helpful to observe, monitor, etc.....but use your senses to do your cuts between transition points. Convinced as some of you may be at this point that 80% is where "hearts" begin and a therm or hydrometer is an ok way to find it, I'm telling you that this an arbitrary number/average that may or may not be relevant on any given run or any given still. Another way to put it would be...the transition points between heads/hearts/tails can't be pre- measured/determined...only sensed. And the point of learning to measure..is to give your senses a starting frame of reference (ie., like start at 80%) and a way to check your findings. You'd just as well pick a number and choose your jars that way...mix it and see what you get. Sometimes its good, sometimes it's not. Then you see the next round of questions come up....ie "I used my therm/hydro to cut at 80% and this run tastes like crap. What happened?". If you do the same recipe, run, on the same still over and over..you may come to find an average...or point of reference to look for...and my point is...that number may be different than 80%. It could be higher. It could be lower. It's not a written in stone measurement you find with a therm or hydrometer.
Measure what you cut...not the other way around.

So, DO use whatever makes you happy to monitor and cross check yourself....so long as it doesn't keep you from learning to use and develop your senses for finding cuts and transition points. It's not a magical thing. It just takes some practice/runs.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Kiwi-lembic » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:25 pm

ScottishBoy wrote:Surprisingly, this subject is one of the hot topics. The feelings that this subject creates can be quite powerful and there are people in both camps.
In defense of one camp, its an easy way to learn to drive your still and it does give you something to do.
In defense of the other, the pot still is the simplest thing in the world and being able to drive without a thermo is a big plus.

Both sides are valid in their positions.

But...it is a double edged sword. I think it should be stated that it is acceptable, but you run the risk of becoming dependant on it. Its easy to fall into the "cut here and stop here" routine, but thats not what gets you great whiskey. At best, that will get you cookie cutter whisky which is just a few points above the commercial crap. While you can make some "okay" whiskey that way, your true great works will come from a lot of interaction and involvement in the product. Whisky cannot be made without love. A Thermo COULD put a little isolation/distance in that interaction.
Since it is the goal of nearly everyone here to make the finest whisky possible, many will tell you to simply not do it because of the risk of becoming dependant on "just making your cuts by ABV and temp". We all hope that our fellows will learn to make fine whiskey and they want to maximise your chances of doing so.

So, If you do it, then install it with the idea that this is something you will WANT to loose...like training wheels...:)
If things are going in the right direction you will reference it less and less, forget to even turn it one a few times, and then one day you will say to yourself "I think I will stick some wire in that hole and seal it up." If things are going wrong, you will find yourself still watching your thermo on your 20th batch and thinking " Yes I will start collecting hearts after it reaches XXX.X". Sadness, apathy and mediocre whisky are now your legacy.
The choice is, as always. yours and yours alone.
The truth is this may never be settled, but this is my attempt at a midpoint.

Hopefully that can satisfy both camps and we can continue with the pursuit of the best whisky we can possibly make!


Scottish thats an excellent article ..new to the whiskey side of things i read many posts on this in here ,i got to yours (in another post a few days ago)and made my decision .
clearly understand what you are saying about not having them from this and all other posts ..thankyou
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Kiwi-lembic » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:37 pm

usge..cheers for your great comments too
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby rad14701 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:55 pm

A thermometer in a pot still is alright, just as long as you ignore it once the spirits start flowing... It's something to watch, to keep you at the still, during warm-up... But once the spirits start flowing you're probably better off hanging your hat over it and learning to read the spirits or use a parrots beak and alcometer...
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby kiwistiller » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:30 pm

ScottishBoy wrote:In defense of one camp, its an easy way to learn to drive your still and it does give you something to do.
In defense of the other, the pot still is the simplest thing in the world and being able to drive without a thermo is a big plus.

*cough*
There is a third camp that likes the idea of them as a general indicator of run progress (specially for stripping), just like a parrot, or boiling chips for that matter... :D
Pretty certain everyone agrees that they're no good for cuts.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby LWTCS » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:32 pm

Kiwi,
Unlodge that bit of crisp by tossing back the entire beer.

Potstillers will more often than not gage their input against the thickness of their out put.

The rest is up to their wits. Least thats how I think I'm learning it.

Howz that for restrained use of punctuation kiwi :ebiggrin:
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby kiwistiller » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:51 pm

Well the punctuation was good, but buggered if I understand what you're talking about?? :lol: :roll: Am I precluded from being a 'potstiller' because I also own a column? 80% of my stuff goes through the pot, I just don't limit myself to it. Not talking about inputs or outputs either, but progress. Temp in a pot can't tell you input.

For the record, I run the pot completely without instruments, no thermo, no parrot, no chips, except for shutdown point which I check with an alcometer. Shit, it's just a keg and a pipe, see the link in my sig. I don't look at the ABV until I check the hearts blend for diluting to aging if nessesary. But I would like a thermo in the boiler, it would be easier to glance at that than fill up my trial jar and check the ABV for shutdown.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby LWTCS » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:11 pm

We're on the same page.

kiwistiller wrote:Temp in a pot can't tell you input.


Size of my stream dictates my input adjustment during the course of the run. Thats all.

The rest was a cryptic commentary on the present state of my sobriety................ :mrgreen: ...............
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby blanikdog » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:34 pm

LWTCS wrote:Kiwi,
Unlodge that bit of crisp by tossing back the entire beer.

Potstillers will more often than not gage their input against the thickness of their out put.

The rest is up to their wits. Least thats how I think I'm learning it.

Howz that for restrained use of punctuation kiwi :ebiggrin:



The thickness of my output indicated that I had an enlarged prostate.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby kiwistiller » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:37 pm

:lol: God I hope we've found a better solution for that by the time I'm your age blanik
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Kiwi-lembic » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:49 pm

blanikdog wrote:
LWTCS wrote:Kiwi,
Unlodge that bit of crisp by tossing back the entire beer.

Potstillers will more often than not gage their input against the thickness of their out put.

The rest is up to their wits. Least thats how I think I'm learning it.

Howz that for restrained use of punctuation kiwi :ebiggrin:



The thickness of my output indicated that I had an enlarged prostate.


bloody funny blanki..excellent... cant beat a good bit of humour ...still laughin ..p.s dont want lumps in me whiskey specially that type ..would ya call that tails ? or hearts mixed with tails
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby ScottishBoy » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:55 am

Kiwi-lembic wrote:
bloody funny blanki..excellent... cant beat a good bit of humour ...still laughin ..p.s dont want lumps in me whiskey specially that type ..would ya call that tails ? or hearts mixed with tails


Clots?
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby WalkingWolf » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:29 am

Leave it to Blanik to infuse a bit of "reality" into a thread :shock:
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby ScottishBoy » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:08 am

blanikdog wrote:The thickness of my output indicated that I had an enlarged prostate.


Thickness usually just means Im either interested or could be easily persuaded.... :O
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Titus-a-fishus » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:49 am

kiwistiller wrote:Well the punctuation was good, but buggered if I understand what you're talking about?? :lol: :roll: Am I precluded from being a 'potstiller' because I also own a column? 80% of my stuff goes through the pot, I just don't limit myself to it. Not talking about inputs or outputs either, but progress. Temp in a pot can't tell you input.

For the record, I run the pot completely without instruments, no thermo, no parrot, no chips, except for shutdown point which I check with an alcometer. Shit, it's just a keg and a pipe, see the link in my sig. I don't look at the ABV until I check the hearts blend for diluting to aging if nessesary. But I would like a thermo in the boiler, it would be easier to glance at that than fill up my trial jar and check the ABV for shutdown.


My Potstill has a thermometer because it was in the original crap design....
But have to agree with KS comments
You don't need one ..... once you have learnt to drive your still
Would I put one in as a newby Yes
Would I put one in again ... NO

Having said that :roll:
I use it for the start up and then watch the output
Would I remove it just to be a purist? Nuh
The only other thing I use it for is closing down the still when it reaches 90 - 91C
The cuts are made using jars
The purity is found using taste, smell, feel, burn on a plate, as per one of the posts on this forum.

It is also useful for something to look at while I spend six hours in front of that ...... still waiting for it to finish

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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby blanikdog » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:16 pm

Don't start me on clots, SB. I can remember walking through the ward with a clear plastic piss bottle, all smiles and shouting, "I've finally got it out" and showing all and sundry a clot abour an inch diameter and eight inches long. They didn't seem to be as pleased as I was. :roll:

What a relief it was feeling it coming all the way out. Ahhhhhhhhhh, I can still feel it.

This incidently, was one of my better experiences with retention and clots. lolololol

This is terribly off topic, Sorry mods, :)
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby rubber duck » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:52 pm

blanikdog wrote:
LWTCS wrote:Kiwi,
Unlodge that bit of crisp by tossing back the entire beer.

Potstillers will more often than not gage their input against the thickness of their out put.

The rest is up to their wits. Least thats how I think I'm learning it.

Howz that for restrained use of punctuation kiwi :ebiggrin:



The thickness of my output indicated that I had an enlarged prostate.



Ummm it's probably not your prostate and there is a shot of it. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby HoBo Bill » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:47 pm

Has anyone ever told you there is one hell of a lot of useless, time wasting bull shit on this site? Sorry guys I did not come hear to listen to your blabber. I want to know about stills & such.
I would like to start at the beginning. I would like to have a knowledgeable person conduct a logical, reasonable explanation of the distilling process as well as equipment required. Why is it so difficult to find such a person that will share real beginner knowledge without having a financial interest in my decision? I just finished reading lots and lots of posts, from all sorts of people about having a thermometer on a pot still or not. Holy shit! Give me a F---- break. An hour later there is still no definitive answer. If you guys want to socialize and B.S. why not just join the Moose club or ? and hang out at the bar. Please stop wasting my time.......
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby googe » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:25 pm

I find that rude and offensive to this site and its members. You want to start at the beginning?, do so then, like we all.had to, new distillers reading lounge. Most of the information here is not financially based!. If you can't find the answer to you question about a thermo on a pot your not understanding the process. As for threads with blabber, it's called going off topic cause the topic has been covered a million times. It's also called banter/fun/laughing, did you lose your sense of humour with your manners?. If I owned this site I'd bann your arse. If your waisting your time, go else were, good luck finding a better group of people to.help you :yawn:
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Prairiepiss » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:54 pm

Wow. You are just plain rude. Don't like how it is around here. Go find somewhere else to go. Instead of shiting on everyone.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Hound Dog » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:55 pm

What's up with this guy whining about a three year old thread? Has he really read three years worth of posts and has not picked up on how a thermometer is not of use on a pot still? :esurprised:

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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Roundyround » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:30 pm

A thermometer on a pot till is useful. It is a device to let you know vapor temp and that relates to the approximate abv of the product leaving the condenser, same as a parrot does. You use it to see what the temp of vapor is, the problem occurs when you then try to control that reported temp by adjusting heat input. A pot still's heat input should only be regulated by the output flow. It is a subtle difference, but a crucial one to understand. It is one of the many counter intuitive aspects of this hobby, some things you just have to take on faith until you see how it works for yourself. This chart will give you approximate temp = abv values. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10158&start=0
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby MitchyBourbon » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:38 pm

+1 Roundyround,

I too find my thermometer to be very useful. I'm glad to see I'm not alone.
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Re: Thermometer on a pot still?

Postby Truckinbutch » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:25 pm

Nothin left for me to say and that's probably a good thing . :lol:
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