Damn blue distillate - again

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HDNB
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by HDNB »

Hound Dog wrote:Does anyone that keeps copper only on the ascending side and runs all stainless on the descending side ever have blue distillate? Just curious.
yes that describes my still. and no blue distillate.

on a hot stripper, the deeper tails come through with a blue tinted cloudy, pretty much like the OP's photo...but i collect all the strip in one pail, so it's all cloudy. it looks this way under cool white flourescent or outside on a blue sky day. under warm white light, it just looks cloudy.

does not come over in spirit run.

no excess nutes, all grain, i'd have to check my PH notes for a good number but i think the last wort was 4.9 when it went in the still.

the top of the plate patina is 97-99% covered in light to dark brown, what appears to be cooked on oils. no blue where this is present. sometimes a small amount of blue corrosion only on top of the copper plates, but so little i don't sweat it.
never any blue on the bottom of the plate, but there is a pink patina only on the bottom.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
mulligan
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by mulligan »

jb-texshine wrote:
Bagasso wrote:
jb-texshine wrote:Anybody else noticed when there is a blue distillate it is usually a still with a worm condenser... coincidence? Thoughts?
After testing low wines and realizing that they can be acidic and since acids dissolve the copper's patina, I would say that it is no coincidence. A little pooling might make it even more pronounced.
I dont believe its just coincidence. I think ill read back through alot of the blue distillate posts and see how many were from worm and how many were with "other" condensers.
Should i discount or include the ones where excess nutes ot turbo were the cause?
It makes sense to count them but count them separately. The thread reads like copper is the issue and I saw another that agrees. I intend for my liver to quit long before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer%27s_reagent or silicone issues overcome me
Bagasso
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by Bagasso »

jb-texshine wrote:Should i discount or include the ones where excess nutes ot turbo were the cause?
Funny because I just measured 1/4 tsp 20-20-20 in 100ml of water and it actually dropped the pH by 0.41 (7.31 to 6.90).

I know DAP is supposed to be alkaline but I don't know how much you would have to use to be considered "a bit too enthusiastic" with it.

Turbos probably use just enough. See no reason why they would place more in a packet if it isn't needed.

I don't think you need more than the naturally low pH of a wash and we all have that. I have also had crystal clear low wines form a blue fluff when pH treating. So, to me, absence of blue does not mean absence of copper compounds.
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by mulligan »

Turbos are poorly regarded here and on every other distilling website, mostly due to excessive nutrient I believe. I'm certainly not implying anyone in this thread over stresses yeast, but depending on yeast, nutrient, temperature it could be an accidental factor for some.
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by Bagasso »

mulligan wrote:Turbos are poorly regarded here and on every other distilling website, mostly due to excessive nutrient I believe. I'm certainly not implying anyone in this thread over stresses yeast, but depending on yeast, nutrient, temperature it could be an accidental factor for some.
I think it is the high ABV and since I can't seem to find what the amount of nutrients in turbos actually is I'm having a hard time figuring out how the nutes got the blame.

I remember someone saying that they would get something called "sugar bite" when doing sugar washes to normal ABV (10% around here) but that they were able to eliminate it by fermenting to 8% or less. If that made a noticeable improvement then how bad might it make a wash made up to 20%? Just a hunch, though.
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by mulligan »

I am semi-confident that the bad vibe started with taking wash above 14% abv in general and specifically doing it very fast, which is considered stressing the yeast and giving horrible tastes and smells that carbon filtering my or may not eliminate.

Turbo 48 is the "standard" turbo and I know from personal experience that it's awful and no amount of re-distilling will fix it, though carbon filtering does to an extent. Great fuel, but horrible to drink.

Alcotec vodka star takes 5 days to hit 14% and everything I've read and brewed says that's the top end and anything stronger/faster is going to be rough.

Edit : I reduce sugar so maybe get 12% wash. I see no value in strong harsh wash.
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by Bagasso »

mulligan wrote:I am semi-confident that the bad vibe started with taking wash above 14% abv in general and specifically doing it very fast, which is considered stressing the yeast and giving horrible tastes and smells that carbon filtering my or may not eliminate.
I believe you and everyone who has ever given them a bad review. I'm just questioning the conclusion that it's the nutes, especially in regards to the question about blue distillate and copper on the downside of a rig.
jb-texshine
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by jb-texshine »

Seems that about 80 percent of them ive scanned through specifically mention using a worm. Low ph and worm seem to be a winning (err,losing) combination.
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by rad14701 »

mulligan wrote:I am semi-confident that the bad vibe started with taking wash above 14% abv in general and specifically doing it very fast, which is considered stressing the yeast and giving horrible tastes and smells that carbon filtering my or may not eliminate.

Turbo 48 is the "standard" turbo and I know from personal experience that it's awful and no amount of re-distilling will fix it, though carbon filtering does to an extent. Great fuel, but horrible to drink.

Alcotec vodka star takes 5 days to hit 14% and everything I've read and brewed says that's the top end and anything stronger/faster is going to be rough.

Edit : I reduce sugar so maybe get 12% wash. I see no value in strong harsh wash.
Just my opinion, based on experience, but turbo washes should probably never be pot stilled to begin with because they aren't designed to produce flavor... I quite regularly do 14% ferments and have no bite after stripping and refluxing... Nor have I had bad results from just refluxing... Every recipe/still combination has its own parameters that are best to stay within for a variety of reasons...

I can hit 14% in 3 - 5 days, most of the time, using bakers yeast and various witches brew combinations of nutrients... The bite doesn't come from the speed of the ferment, it comes from excessive heat buildup and/or excessive nutrients... If I do ever experience some "bite" I adjust my yeast/nutrient ratios on future iterations of the same basic recipe and insure that the wash doesn't reach temperature runaway... This is all for neutral spirits... For flavored spirits, when it comes to nutrients, less is better... I back down on nutrients and, occasionally, sugar...

As with everything else, YMMV...
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Kareltje
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by Kareltje »

Did two runs with the same old birdwatcher. Each time 7 litres of 5 %ABV in a copper 10 l boiler. First with a copper condenser (a worm in the air, not in a bucket of water), second with a ss condenser (also in the air).
The copper condenser produced, from 40 %ABV downward, a very slight blue colour, hardly visible but clear alongside the clear product of the ss condenser.
I trust it will go away at the spirit run, as it did last time.
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by mulligan »

As you say, it's definitely a copper thing. Strange that it's showing up in worms specifically.

Everything I read points in same direction eg http://distillique.co.za/distilling_sho ... correct-it" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

edit, apart from citric acid, I'm out of ideas
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Kareltje
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by Kareltje »

To recover "blue distillate":
Add from 5 to 10g of citric acid per liter of blue distillate. This will react with the ammonia and produce ammonium citrate. This will precipitate out along with the copper.
Use a coffee filter to remove the precipitated crystals from the alcohol. If th ealcohol remain blue, add just enough citric acid until it clears. If the alcohol smells a bit like "wrotten egss" afterwards, re-distill it with clean copper scrubbers to get rid of the H2S (that formed during the chemical process).
I will immediatly try it!

Edit: I did. The faint blueish hue is gone. :thumbup: Tomorrow I will check for precipitate.
Thanks! :clap:
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Re: Damn blue distillate - again

Post by butterpants »

My anecdote about this copper sulfate issue...

Never seen it in distillate BUT when I clean my copper mesh packing material (stainless still) I see it. I soak the rolls in hot PBW for a few hours. Water turns bright, light blue. After a rinse then second treatment in starsan the copper is generally tarnish free and no blue in distillate.

I bet you could recirculate starsan/saniclean (an acid based rinse free sanatizer) through your still for a while with a pump if the problem was inside and hard to reach, in lieu of Citric acid soaking.
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