Lyne Arm Angle

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Carpathia89
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Lyne Arm Angle

Post by Carpathia89 »

Hello All,

I read all about the Lyne Arm Angle on pot still designs and I've noticed not many people use the "Lighter" design with the arm going up at a 45 degree angle then dropping down to the condenser. So my question is, is it just preference or do the other 2 designs make for a better still? This is just one of the many things on my check list to tackle before i draw up the final plans. But i am leaning toward the "Lighter" design, just because i like the idea that it causes just a bit of reflux but still all the benefits of a pot still. I would love for some pro input or just anyone's personal opinions would be much appreciated.

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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by jholmz »

it all comes down to personal preference as to how much body you want in your spirits the lighter one you get some natural reflux lightening the flavor profile the middle a little less reflux and the direct angle gets a more full bodied spirit just depends what your looking for
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by Dnderhead »

on these little stills you will see little difference.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by Odin »

If you distill very slowly, some gasses might condense on the inside walls of the pipe. In the picture on the left this liquid refluxes back to the boiler, meeting rising vapours and exchanging some water and alcohol molecules. In the picture to the right, this reflux goes to the collection vessel. Theoretically the picture to the right might give you a slightly higher abv. But does that mean less taste? We are talking potstills here. You dilute 75% to 45% drinking strength or you dilute the slightly higher abv and more concentrated 76% back to 45%. Not much of a difference. What you should take into consideration is: is your bridge constructed in such a way the liebig fits under it. And do you have enough space underneath to collect?

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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by myles »

There is a lot of miss-understanding about this. In principle it is true, however, it really only applies if your lyne arm is about 20 foot long and starts at about 6" in diameter. Just like on a traditional commercial pot still.

In that situation there is sufficient surface area in the lyne arm for natural reflux to occur - and yes in that situation you do get a change in the vapour profile.
Unfortunately on the small scale equipment that we tend to use there just is not enough surface area involved in the vapour path to make a noticeable difference.

You will probably find that you can influence the flavour profile far more by manipulating power input than you can by changing the angle. On some of the old stills they did use deliberate INDUCED cooling to create some additional reflux to be returned to the boiler, as a way of modifying the flavour profile. I am not sure it is as effective on the smaller volume stills that we have.

I honestly think power management and blending of your cuts is your better option.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by Carpathia89 »

So basically on the scale stills we will be running it doesn't really matter or wont have much of an effect either way. Ok cool one more thing to chalk up to personal preference.

Thank you gentlemen for taking the time to clear up my noob question. :lol:

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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by magnetic_tarantula »

Dnderhead wrote:on these little stills you will see little difference.
Without wanting to sound like a douche(as I have much respect for your knowledge/opinion), what "evidence" are you basing that on? Personal experience? Or researching? Either is fine I am just curious. I plan on finding out through experience either way.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by myles »

I tried it.
Photo008a.jpg
Photo003pot.jpg
Short tapers, long tapers, various riser heights etc etc. Added cooling coils and packing in the riser, lyne arm length and angle did not do much.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by Prairiepiss »

onemarleyfan wrote:
Dnderhead wrote:on these little stills you will see little difference.
Without wanting to sound like a douche(as I have much respect for your knowledge/opinion), what "evidence" are you basing that on? Personal experience? Or researching? Either is fine I am just curious. I plan on finding out through experience either way.
Try it and let is know how it works out for you. I personaly wouldn't waste my time.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by goose eye »

ole boys use it more for puke control if they chargein malt extract


so im tole
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by magnetic_tarantula »

So do you think when looking at Scottish distillery's stills that they are just using that as PR bullshit? i.e. Our Lyne arm is at an upward angle so it produces a much lighter blah blah blah.

I would think if you want more/less reflux you would turn the wick up/down. I know my column I can run it hard/fast and kick out 65% or I can run it slow and get 85%. I think of all the differences in the various Single malts(I have tried over a 100 different commercial whiskies). They basically taste the same but there are very minute yet significant differences. If oak barrels account for 60-80% of the flavor, you would have to think that Yeast and the way you distill would account for the rest. I know lots of factors go into both of those.

Who knows maybe I could make 36 gallons of wash and run each with a different head and see what I get.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by myles »

onemarleyfan wrote:So do you think when looking at Scottish distillery's stills that they are just using that as PR bullshit? i.e. Our Lyne arm is at an upward angle so it produces a much lighter blah blah blah.

I would think if you want more/less reflux you would turn the wick up/down. I know my column I can run it hard/fast and kick out 65% or I can run it slow and get 85%. I think of all the differences in the various Single malts(I have tried over a 100 different commercial whiskies). They basically taste the same but there are very minute yet significant differences. If oak barrels account for 60-80% of the flavor, you would have to think that Yeast and the way you distill would account for the rest. I know lots of factors go into both of those.

Who knows maybe I could make 36 gallons of wash and run each with a different head and see what I get.
ABSOLUTELY NOT. Just calculate the surface area involved in a 20 foot long cone tapering from 6" dia to 2" dia. There is a significant amount of reflux caused by the loss of heat from the arm into the surrounding air. This is non linear - rate of heat loss increases with diameter at an increasing rate as diameter increases.

Taking a standard temperature difference of 55 deg C (for comparison):

1/2 " pipe looses 45 watts per meter
1" pipe looses 76 watts per meter
2" pipe looses 131 watts per meter
4" pipe looses 232 watts per meter

The bigger the lyne arm the more affect it has, and in these conditions THEN the arm angle becomes significant. Power management of the boiler IS used, but this is more about varying the production rates for heads and tails concentration. The power management profile takes into account the pre-existing physical shape of the still.

You can't compare running a column to running a pot still - the pot still has far less precise control available.
Power management on a pot still maximises the hearts cut and quality, small changes in power level can have considerable quality implications. You can completely ruin the quality of the entire run by getting the power management profile wrong. In comparison the variations introduced by still geometry are quite small.

Typically you would pick a geometry based on prior experience and personal choice, then establish a power management profile to make the still work for a specific recipe. Change the recipe and you change the power profile also. Then as fine tuning, it is not uncommon to see big onion stills that incorporate ACTIVE cooling with water cooled balls / bowls etc.

It is very rare to see any big pot still that has ANY ability to change the angle of the arm after it has been built. This is a decision taken in the design phase and it is fixed early on.

Remember angle of the lyne arm AFTER the high point in the vapour path does nothing DIRECTLY. From that point onwards everything goes into the product. You can only change flavour profile by returning components to the boiler. Taper of the arm towards the condenser is about maintaining vapour speed and pressure in the entire system as the vapour cools, the aim is to maintain a constant vapour speed at all points in the vapour path.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by goose eye »

On some one barel an to barel outfits they make
there caps so they can be angled. Push it down
in the front or push it down in the back an
block up or down to your keg or condencer.
You want more reflux you block it up turn the
wick down an warp the cap with wet burlap.
Keep putin cool water on it.
Make sure you keep it off the joints where
your biscuits is. When you got it how you
want it you pull the burlap off an cook how
how you see fit.

So im tole
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by Prairiepiss »

onemarleyfan wrote:So do you think when looking at Scottish distillery's stills that they are just using that as PR bullshit? i.e. Our Lyne arm is at an upward angle so it produces a much lighter blah blah blah.

I would think if you want more/less reflux you would turn the wick up/down. I know my column I can run it hard/fast and kick out 65% or I can run it slow and get 85%. I think of all the differences in the various Single malts(I have tried over a 100 different commercial whiskies). They basically taste the same but there are very minute yet significant differences. If oak barrels account for 60-80% of the flavor, you would have to think that Yeast and the way you distill would account for the rest. I know lots of factors go into both of those.

Who knows maybe I could make 36 gallons of wash and run each with a different head and see what I get.
Its not BS. It just doesn't work well with the smaller home stills. I thought that was said? The difference between a maybe 6 foot tall 2" diameter still and a 20 foot tall 6" 8" even 12" diameter still. Is tremendous.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by magnetic_tarantula »

It was said I just didn't see the reasoning behind it(which I may have missed).

How do you define smaller? How about a 55gallon bboiler with 4 feet of 4" another 3 feet up/downward sloping 2"? This is hypothetical, I am only in the planning stages(so don't get on me about hobby sizes). I am looking into getting a license so am just planning.



I ask because when you look at Japanese distilleries there are not too many but the few they have produce quite a few different styles arm angle being one of the factors. I was hoping to reproduce that on a smaller scale. I know their stills are in the 1000's of gallons. I'm going to go through and do it anyways. There isn't a whole lot of cost involved(most of the copper components I picked up supercheap).
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by magnetic_tarantula »

Edit : which I did miss......spend alot of my workday researching stuff that has nothing to do with my job on my phone. It is much easier to accidentally miss things(my apology Dunder/myles).
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by myles »

OK lets try this way.

Previously I tried to scale down a big still to more modest proportions. It did not work.

You would need to maintain the ratios of the surface area of the vapour path to the volume of the boiler. In addition, you also need to factor in the vapour speed relative to the heat loss from the vapour path.

You just can't do it and get a practical still. The lyne arm angles work because they are appropriate to the size of the boiler - reduce the boiler size and a lot of other factors now mean that those same angles don't work.

In reality if you want a comparable result from a smaller boiler you need to introduce some sort of active cooling. Even if you maintained the surface area to volume ratios you are now in a situation where your vapour path just can't shed heat fast enough. Reduce the power and you get caught in the quality trap.

This is one of the reasons why they developed thumpers and short plated columns. Both devices loose heat and in one respect compensate for the heat that would be lost by a bigger vapour path.

After all a short plated column can be interpreted as a variable reflux pot still - if you are running it like a pot still. It is far more versatile than that - but a lot depends on what you do with it.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by magnetic_tarantula »

Thanks for really laying it out. I do appreciate you taking the time and hope it wasn't too much trouble.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by rad14701 »

As myles has pointed out, it is far more than merely scaling down a commercial still and expecting the same results... Heat dissipation, vapor speed, and a whole plethora of other factors are what has led us to emphatically state that hobby scale is far different than commercial scale... And some of what we can do on the hobby scale is hard, if not impossible, to achieve at the commercial level...
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by magnetic_tarantula »

I would like to do hobby size commercially. Paid up front with my own money(i.e. not tied to investors).

I know 55gallons is not considered hobby size, but what do you think of the differences in this same Lyne arm angle argument between 15gal vs 55gal vs say 200gal? and 2"(on a 15), 4" on a 55, 6" or larger on anything larger?

I'm more just looking for your opinion. I think I generally understand the theory, as I've mentioned before RAD I simply enjoy talking about it and hearing opinions as it helps me better understand the different aspects.

If you don't feel like shooting the shit about it that's cool.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by myles »

I do see where you are coming from. I have gone down this route and this is going to be connected to a short plated column. This is an attempt to introduce some passive reflux.

Image

THIS is an award winning micro.
jc-working_resizeda.jpg
It just reinforces the concept that a bigger contribution is made by the vapour path between the boiler and the high point, what happens afterwards does not affect the flavour that much. Hope it helps.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by Bushman »

onemarleyfan wrote:I would like to do hobby size commercially. Paid up front with my own money(i.e. not tied to investors).

I know 55gallons is not considered hobby size, but what do you think of the differences in this same Lyne arm angle argument between 15gal vs 55gal vs say 200gal? and 2"(on a 15), 4" on a 55, 6" or larger on anything larger?

I'm more just looking for your opinion. I think I generally understand the theory, as I've mentioned before RAD I simply enjoy talking about it and hearing opinions as it helps me better understand the different aspects.

If you don't feel like shooting the shit about it that's cool.
Not about lyne arm but here is one of our local distilleries that has done something similar with repurposed beer kegs.
image.jpg
Smaller in scale, but packing a huge punch, Mount Baker Distillery in Bellingham plans to offer 100-proof moonshine whiskey, as well as 80-proof vodka produced in 15-gallon stills made from re-purposed beer kegs. Moonshine is a part of owner Troy Smith’s family heritage, reaching back to just after the Civil War. He plans to honor the memory of his great-great grandfather by calling the product Abe Smith’s Mt. Baker Moonshine. The distillery and tasting room is located at 1305 Fraser Street, Suite D2.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by Odin »

My knowledge goes as far that the angle of the line arm or an onion do introduce passive reflux. On a bigger rig, the effect is enlarged. On a smaller rig, it only works at relative slower vapour speeds.

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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by magnetic_tarantula »

I did initially build 3 columns to run on 3 kegs(i.e. 46.5gal capacity). There was a thread but I was getting raked over the coals I finally asked to have it removed. Beer stripping runs were no problem because you're just running into one common pot. The first few runs though burned through so much propane. I didn't find it too cost effective. It probably wouldn't be an issue if I switched all the kegs to electric. Then that is 3 welds, 3 controllers, 3 elements, and I would need 3 outlets probably that don't run on the same line(all the outlets on the back of my house are on the same breaker). So I switched to electric on one keg doing multiple runs, which is time consuming. I dont mind sitting and watching the copper drip, but I have a family that I want to spend time with, so figuring out ways to reduce time input is paramount on my list. Especially once I get to the point of putting up a building and applying for a license(thinking of the 5-10 year plan here). What I make on the keg now is pretty good, hopefully what I am aging will be good too. I think like Myles said it is all in the cuts(hopefully there will be a little profile differences with the lyne arm). Especially with Whiskey figuring out how much heads/tails to include.

I have looked through quite a few craft distilleries to get a feel for what they make and how much, etc. I believe there is one in Brooklyn that uses 8gallon stills, and others like you mentioned that I believe use 220gallon stills, and some that use 55 gallon stills. For me I think I could put together a 55 gallon still/column/worm together for almost nothing($250). I found someone who has to pay to get rid of his stainless steel 55gal drums(i could take them for free!!), and I still have a bunch of recycled 4" copper in my garage, and recently I found 25+ feet of 3/4" soft copper tubing(<$$20).

Either way it is fun dreaming, building, mashing and distilling. Maybe it doesn't work out, maybe it does. Either way it sure as fuck beats being a drone.

Thanks for the pics Myles/Bushman......in my market research I have come across all of those. That large one is from the Colonel and costs $10k+. It is pretty sweet and I would love to get it but way out of my range.

As I am typing Odin you posted. I will be reading some more on it is the best way to affect vapor speed adjustuing heat input?
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by WooTeck »

this has been a fantastic read to a question ive been thinking about.
goose eye wrote:.
You want more reflux you block it up turn the
wick down an warp the cap with wet burlap.
Keep putin cool water on it.
Make sure you keep it off the joints where
your biscuits is. When you got it how you
want it you pull the burlap off an cook how
how you see fit.

So im tole
i think this is a tip i will be using.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by thecroweater »

I liked an adjustable lynne arm for my pot stills, you could adjust the arm to get what ya wanted. Ill post a picture of one of my old ones, later it had a 90' bend on the liebig connection and that really gave ya options
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by WooTeck »

thecroweater wrote:I liked an adjustable lynne arm for my pot stills, you could adjust the arm to get what ya wanted. Ill post a picture of one of my old ones, later it had a 90' bend on the liebig connection and that really gave ya options
thats cleaver im assuming you set the angle by screwing it in?
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by thecroweater »

Its a crox and ring nut so you tighten the nut when you have the desired angle :thumbup:
This still was popular enough that it has been copied by quite a few back home, that is I no longer own it as i use a plated column
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by WooTeck »

thecroweater wrote:Its a crox and ring nut so you tighten the nut when you have the desired angle :thumbup:
This still was popular enough that it has been copied by quite a few back home, that is I no longer own it as i use a plated column
im rather torn i like the option of versatility but i also am very tempted with it being set in stone. did you notice any diferancy with the angle? what ive been reading is that there isnt that much effect.

my main aims are for flavour for some and proof in others. what my plan would be is add insulation to the arm when i want minimum reflux with full flavour and a water cooled rags when im looking for extra reflux and high proof.

i cant really see myself anging the arm down but maybe across.
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Re: Lyne Arm Angle

Post by thecroweater »

yes there was a difference, i wouldnt say profound but noticeable and maybe 10 to 15 percent difference in ABV as well
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