Trying to make cuts

Simple pot still distillation and construction with or without a thumper.

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Mgnt
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Trying to make cuts

Post by Mgnt »

So I stripped a wash the other and let it air out for a day and a half.... now I'm trying to decide what to keep... I use a copper pot still and a thumper... I collected in glass jar roughly 200 MLs in ever jar.... I can tell where I would like to start my cut but it's toward the end it get pretty tough.... there's basically 18 jars and form 11- 16 are cloudy but taste and smell nice.... 17 and 18 are clear no issue with cloudyness... I have about 7-8 runs under my belt but they were basically strips followed but a spirt run... I wasn't happy with what came out of the spirt run... it have no flavor it was basically vodka... I want something with flavor oz I was try to just do one run... now I thought I was going pretty slow... coming out like a heavy broken stream.... the total strip was about 11 gallons... 8 in the pot 3 in the thumper ....fresh wash in both..... the boiler in roughly 9 gallons and the thumber is 5... when I was done I had an extra gallon in the thumper.... and it took about 5-6 hours

So my questions are
1 Does cloudyness go away with Time
2 all of my jar have stuff floating on top... I've read this happens when tails come... could I filter it out with cotton or something.
3 what causes cloudyness
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by jb-texshine »

By putting fresh wash in the thumper it was basically a strip run. Use everything you collected as a low wines charge for the thumper and put fresh wash in the boiler and youll get all the flavor you want. Run it at the smallest steady stream possible,not broken.
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by Mgnt »

jb-texshine wrote:By putting fresh wash in the thumper it was basically a strip run. Use everything you collected as a low wines charge for the thumper and put fresh wash in the boiler and youll get all the flavor you want. Run it at the smallest steady stream possible,not broken.

I guess I have to run it again didn't really want to guess I'll just combine everything I've made so far and run it in the thumper

I honestly like the taste of one run... the plan for my next run was an AG... clear wash in the boiler then grains in the thumper.... I put the grains into a paint strainer bag and tie it so I could put them into the thumper..... bad idea or what
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by cuginosgrizzo »

Imho very bad idea. You are going to extract astringent tannins from the grains that way.
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by ShineRunner »

There are several here that strip with clear wash in the boiler and wash/grains in the thumper. Truckinbutch, MichiganCornHusker, and several others. I have not started it and will be starting soon. But, they don't report any tannins from steam stripping the grains in the thumper.

To the OP: yes, you will still be doing a stripping run with grains/wash in the thumper and will have to do a spirit run after. Sounds like you want more flavor, but you don't say what you're running. Some sugar washes have more flavor than others. When I first started out, I wasn't impressed by the flavor of sugar heads either. They get better with age, but are still nothing special. At least the ones I made. Be patient. Let them age and go from there. Sounds like you're learning, but have a ways to go yet.

As for the paint strainer bag in the thumper- if it's plastic, I wouldn't do it. 1- it's plastic/nylon. Exposed to high ABV. 2. If you have a thick blob in the thumper, inside of a bag especially, you're not going to effectively extract the alcohol and flavors. It needs to be a somewhat thin wash in there with the grains. There's a thread somewhere by truckinbutch that talks about this.

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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by ShineRunner »

And as for the floaters, you can dab them with a paper towel lightly to get them to soak up. I've also left a little and they disappeared into the oak after a while as well..
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by Mgnt »

ShineRunner wrote:
To the OP: yes, you will still be doing a stripping run with grains/wash in the thumper and will have to do a spirit run after. Sounds like you want more flavor, but you don't say what you're running. Some sugar washes have more flavor than others. When I first started out, I wasn't impressed by the flavor of sugar heads either. They get better with age, but are still nothing special. At least the ones I made. Be patient. Let them age and go from there. Sounds like you're learning, but have a ways to go yet.

As for the paint strainer bag in the thumper- if it's plastic, I wouldn't do it. 1- it's plastic/nylon. Exposed to high ABV. 2. If you have a thick blob in the thumper, inside of a bag especially, you're not going to effectively extract the alcohol and flavors. It needs to be a somewhat thin wash in there with the grains. There's a thread somewhere by truckinbutch that talks about this.

SR
I'm running sugarheads but just mashed and AG and it's fermenting... 60% corn 30% red wheat malt 10% rye malt.... math might be alittle off but 8 lbs on corn 4 red wheat 1 lb rye mashed in 9 gallons on water... SG of 1.045

And the plan was clear wash in the boiler and the grain plus water or clear wash in the thumper... I was going to empty the bag out into the thumper.. I only put the bag in so I could ferment on the grain and be able to pull everything out and not have tons of yeast in the mix

Btw what imho mean

Also does any one strain or filter your spirt coming off the still... or after the fact
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by Truckinbutch »

Mgnt wrote:
ShineRunner wrote:
To the OP: yes, you will still be doing a stripping run with grains/wash in the thumper and will have to do a spirit run after. Sounds like you want more flavor, but you don't say what you're running. Some sugar washes have more flavor than others. When I first started out, I wasn't impressed by the flavor of sugar heads either. They get better with age, but are still nothing special. At least the ones I made. Be patient. Let them age and go from there. Sounds like you're learning, but have a ways to go yet.

As for the paint strainer bag in the thumper- if it's plastic, I wouldn't do it. 1- it's plastic/nylon. Exposed to high ABV. 2. If you have a thick blob in the thumper, inside of a bag especially, you're not going to effectively extract the alcohol and flavors. It needs to be a somewhat thin wash in there with the grains. There's a thread somewhere by truckinbutch that talks about this.

SR
I'm running sugarheads but just mashed and AG and it's fermenting... 60% corn 30% red wheat malt 10% rye malt.... math might be alittle off but 8 lbs on corn 4 red wheat 1 lb rye mashed in 9 gallons on water... SG of 1.045

And the plan was clear wash in the boiler and the grain plus water or clear wash in the thumper... I was going to empty the bag out into the thumper.. I only put the bag in so I could ferment on the grain and be able to pull everything out and not have tons of yeast in the mix

Btw what imho mean

Also does any one strain or filter your spirt coming off the still... or after the fact
Only time I will filter spirit is when i take it off of oak .
This ag thing is something SRD and I are learning as we go . We both stripped with a full boiler charge and full thumper charge with sugar heads , Neither of us is bold enough to charge a thumper with solids at this point and try to distill out that last drop of an ag .
We will keep updating our thread . Hopefully with 'What Works ' rather than 'What Not To Do' .
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by still_stirrin »

Mgnt wrote:...what imho mean...
"in my humble opinion"
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by ShineRunner »

Apologies TB, I thought you were stripping on the grain. Perhaps that's brutal and shady over in the steam distillation thread.. Or maybe I'm all hosed?

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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by Mgnt »

My OP was about cloudiness... and will it dissipate or clear after some oak... cause there's a lot of nice flavors there
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by still_stirrin »

Mgnt wrote:My OP was about cloudiness... and will it dissipate or clear after some oak... cause there's a lot of nice flavors there
The cloud is the result of tails pushing through. Perhaps you ran too fast and smeared them through the run, or you ran too deep into the end of the run (getting greedy) and you got tails in your product. Sometimes the oils will coalesce and float to the top (whitish scum). Other times, it's just a cloudy haze in the collection jars.

Regardless, that's what created your cloudiness. But, with some tails comes a lot of grain (husky) flavor as well. A lot of distillers like a little of that addition to their bourbons for flavor complexity. I do believe that aging on oak will help reduce, if not eliminate most of the cloudiness. But it somewhat depends on how much you've got and at what proof your spirits are, both on wood and when bottled.

Some claim that carbon filtering will remove the cloudiness at the expense of flavor too. I can't vouch for that as I've never carbon filtered. One thing I know...if the cloud is untolerable, then rerun the spirit. You can have another "attempt" at your bourbon.
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by skow69 »

There ya go! Dump it all back in the pot, dilute it to 30% with water or the backset if you have it, and run her again. Try to avoid smearing and make a tighter tails cut. Nothing lost. Chalk it up to practice. Practice is the only way to learn how to cut. Practice makes perfect. Practice, practice, practice. It gets easier. Making cuts is my favorite sport. lol
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by Mgnt »

Yea I know SS cloudiness is unacceptable.... and I definitely leaning thing the hard way but when it comes off the still it's clear then I let it air out for one to two days and that when I notice it cloudy.... proof in not very high I ended up with a spirt that's 80 proof no water was added just mixed the jars I liked... I put two oak cubes in one jar just to see what happens and I'll just rerun everything I have right now.... I'll be putting the spirt in the boiler diluting it to probaly 20% there water and left over grains form the last mash... they were not fermented....
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by still_stirrin »

Mgnt wrote:...I'll be putting the spirt in the boiler diluting it to probaly 20%...the water and left over grains from the last mash...they were not fermented....
Why do you want to do this? It'll only push more "crap" into your spirit...crap you're trying to get rid of.

OK, so put the once collected spirits back into the boiler and dilute with water (I wouldn't add backset if your goal is to get rid of the fog). Leave the unfermented grains out of the boiler...they'll only aggravate your cloudy skies....
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by Mgnt »

I guess your right but then again I'm still learning so it's easier for me to ask a question to some professionals than realize after the fact it was a mistake... my goal it to produce a full flavor liquor of high quality and I'm still in the beginning stage of that some mistakes will be made but that how most things go... I try to read and research everything I can here there's tons of knowledge here... some I was looking to probe you guys and see what some other people do
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by Truckinbutch »

Mgnt wrote:I guess your right but then again I'm still learning so it's easier for me to ask a question to some professionals than realize after the fact it was a mistake... my goal it to produce a full flavor liquor of high quality and I'm still in the beginning stage of that some mistakes will be made but that how most things go... I try to read and research everything I can here there's tons of knowledge here... some I was looking to probe you guys and see what some other people do
You keep that attitude and you are going to be just fine . First feller that did this didn't know what he was doing , neither . We got all those corrected mistakes to learn from . That shortens our learning curve .
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by FranklinNewhart »

still_stirrin wrote:
Mgnt wrote:My OP was about cloudiness... and will it dissipate or clear after some oak... cause there's a lot of nice flavors there
The cloud is the result of tails pushing through. Perhaps you ran too fast and smeared them through the run, or you ran too deep into the end of the run (getting greedy) and you got tails in your product. Sometimes the oils will coalesce and float to the top (whitish scum). Other times, it's just a cloudy haze in the collection jars.

Regardless, that's what created your cloudiness. But, with some tails comes a lot of grain (husky) flavor as well. A lot of distillers like a little of that addition to their bourbons for flavor complexity. I do believe that aging on oak will help reduce, if not eliminate most of the cloudiness. But it somewhat depends on how much you've got and at what proof your spirits are, both on wood and when bottled.

Some claim that carbon filtering will remove the cloudiness at the expense of flavor too. I can't vouch for that as I've never carbon filtered. One thing I know...if the cloud is untolerable, then rerun the spirit. You can have another "attempt" at your bourbon.
ss
This explains getting fogginess late in the run but I get fogginess at the beginning of the run. I use it as an indicator between heads and hearts. Seems like a good indicator to me but I have wondered what makes the fogginess. I put a sample under a microscope and went up to 1000x and could see nothing so it has to be chemical and not bits of stuff coming out of the still. Still wondering what is causing the fogginess at the beginning of the run.
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Mgnt wrote:So my questions are
1 Does cloudyness go away with Time
I would say no. If it won't filter out I don't think it will clear up with time. But cloudiness isn't the end of the world, if you like the taste you get to make it anyway you want.
Mgnt wrote:2 all of my jar have stuff floating on top... I've read this happens when tails come... could I filter it out with cotton or something.
Yes, you can filter that out with cotton. Yes, it usually comes with tails, no sure why all our jars would have it. Sometimes I see oils on my first few jars but I always figure it is rinsing out some tails in the condenser from the previous run.
Mgnt wrote:3 what causes cloudyness
I've experienced a couple types of cloudiness. Some is caused by the oils in the tails, but I've also gotten some cloudiness when proofing with tap water that I think was from minerals in the water. Proofing the same spirit with distilled water didn't cloud up.

You should easily be able to do a one-run with loads of flavor with a pot/thumper combo. Try running it with clear wash in the thumper, or even water, just enough in the thumper to get it started.
If you like bold flavor, you will always be tempted to drift into the cloudy jars for your blend.
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Re: Cloudy stripped whiskey

Post by _DrPhil_ »

I have made dozens of whiskey runs on my pot still. I always strip the wash and then run it second time. I pull heavy on the heads and tails during my final run. All is good. I just however stripped a batch and had a bit of cloudiness towards the end. I put it all in jars for storage. 5 days later I checked it to find it was all very cloudy and had floating junk in it plus it stinks like crap. What the heck happen? and is it salvageable?
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by jrhum »

I've also gotten some cloudiness when proofing with tap water that I think was from minerals in the water. Proofing the same spirit with distilled water didn't cloud up.
I had a similar problem! When proofing 70% rum with water it was all clear at 45%, but cloudy at 40%. I tried with both filtered tap water and mineral water and the same happened. My rum was the outcome from a spirit rum which include feints from previous run.

Any idea what the cloudiness was coming from?
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by jb-texshine »

jrhum wrote:
I've also gotten some cloudiness when proofing with tap water that I think was from minerals in the water. Proofing the same spirit with distilled water didn't cloud up.
I had a similar problem! When proofing 70% rum with water it was all clear at 45%, but cloudy at 40%. I tried with both filtered tap water and mineral water and the same happened. My rum was the outcome from a spirit rum which include feints from previous run.

Any idea what the cloudiness was coming from?
Tap water and mineral water both contain minerals that can cause cloudyness. Use distilled water. Clear at 45% and cloudy at 40% usually indicates tails though. Try distilled water first. If it turns cloudy still its tails. If you like the taste even though is cloudy just dont dilute to 40%.
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Re: Trying to make cuts

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Tap water and mineral water both contain minerals that can cause cloudyness. Use distilled water.
Thanks jb-texshine, the only distilled water I can find here (in Africa) is "bi-desmineralized" water typically used for batteries, radiators, etc, which has a warning "dont drink", so I am not too keen to use! This said I am filtering my tap water through RO system from ALTEC, which I believe eliminates most minerals. So I would go with your conclusion that this is probably linked to the tails.
Clear at 45% and cloudy at 40% usually indicates tails though. Try distilled water first. If it turns cloudy still its tails. If you like the taste even though is cloudy just dont dilute to 40%.
A strange thing is that when proofing my previous runs with same RO filtered water it was all clear. In all runs I ran the hearts down to 50% resulting in a crystal clear spirit averaging 70% ABV. I ran the hearts down to 50%. The only differences between the new cloudy run and the previous ones was that I added feints (down to 20%) in the new run and may have run the hearts a bit faster. Do you think one of these differences may be reason for cloudiness?
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by jb-texshine »

Running faster could have pulled the tails in sooner,definately.
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by FranklinNewhart »

jrhum wrote:
Thanks jb-texshine, the only distilled water I can find here (in Africa) is "bi-desmineralized" water typically used for batteries, radiators, etc, which has a warning "dont drink", so I am not too keen to use! This said I am filtering my tap water through RO system from ALTEC, which I believe eliminates most minerals. So I would go with your conclusion that this is probably linked to the tails.
I have found that the best place to get the best distilled water you can get is right out of your own still. Just do a water run, any water will do. What you get is distilled water with zero PPM. Use that for your cuts and you will be amazed.
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by jrhum »

Many thanks!

For my spirit run (for a 26 gal in pot still mode), I get input at roughly 30% ABV (60 proof). I am getting 2 liters heads at slow power (6-8A on my electric heater) which I am discarding, then collect about a full 20L (6 gal) carboy of heart down to roughly 50% ABV (100 proof) at 15A. Temp is then around 92c (200 F) when I start tails down to 20% ABV at 18A. I use all tails as faints for next spirit run. I will go slower on heart at next run and see...

I will make my own distilled water. I take I can do that at full power.

Fingers crossed!
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by skow69 »

How much tails do you collect? Remember that s more tails in your still charge. I like to recycle them into the stripping run
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by jrhum »

skow69 wrote:How much tails do you collect? Remember that s more tails in your still charge. I like to recycle them into the stripping run
Around 3 liters. Do you think that recycling the faints directly into the spirit run may have cause the cloudiness?
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by skow69 »

I was just thinking that more tails in the charge is more tails to avoid in the distillate, but 3liters in 26 gallons is little more than a drop in a bucket.

So you're cutting 2 I heads and 3 I tails from 25 I collection. That would be a pretty wide hearts cut for me. Maybe you're just digging too deep into the tails.
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Re: Trying to make cuts

Post by Kareltje »

jrhum wrote:
Tap water and mineral water both contain minerals that can cause cloudyness. Use distilled water.
Thanks jb-texshine, the only distilled water I can find here (in Africa) is "bi-desmineralized" water typically used for batteries, radiators, etc, which has a warning "dont drink", so I am not too keen to use! This said I am filtering my tap water through RO system from ALTEC, which I believe eliminates most minerals. So I would go with your conclusion that this is probably linked to the tails.
It is a bit off topic but maybe relevant for you: it is not healthy to drink water that has absolutely no minerals in it. Bi-desmineralized water sounds to me that the minerals in it has been two times removed. Say twice distilled. So it is almost pure H2O.
Problem is that the water in the cells of our body is loaded with all kinds of other molecules and when the twice distilled, pure water comes in contact with the cells of the body, an equilibrium wants to be formed. That is to say: pure H2O is sucked into the body cells until they burst and all molecules in the cells want to migrate into the surrounding pure H2O, leaving the cell empty.

As said: you can make your own distilled water with your still. Cheap and easy.
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