5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Simple pot still distillation and construction with or without a thumper.

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dchizem
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5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

Hello all

I'm trying to come up with a simple design for a small modular test still. I would like a bench top style pot still with thumper (possibly a double thumper) for small batch testing. I have decided i will be using a 1000w fondue pot acting as a double boiler of sorts, with perhaps some kind of oil or maybe glycol as the buffer liquid. The boiler will be two pipe spools a 6x4 inch attached to a 6x6 with tri clover ends(total volume approx 5L). A conical reducer will reduce down to a 2x8 inch inline sight glass then attached to a 2 inch T piece capped at the top with a thermowell and from the side reducing again to a 1 inch tri clover leading into a 3/8 pipe going into the thumper (another pipe spool, maybe 5x6Inch, just under 2L) likely an L piece on the inside of the thumper/s with some small holes and then going into either another thumper then to a liebig condenser (or straight to the liebig from first thumper) which will be about 15inch long and 1.2inch over 3/8 or there abouts.

i would just like some opinions and critiques. will the 1000w oil bath be enough to drive this baby with possibly two thumpers? what liquid would be considered best, glycol, oil etc? is the condenser large enough to knock it all down? the size of the thumper/s, is that about right? what size holes in the L piece and how many/spacing apart? and should the L piece be touching the bottom of the thumper or not, or does it not make a difference? is the inline sight glass too high? Any other thoughts or considerations will be greatly appreciated.

Please find picture attached (sorry abit average) the thumper is 6x6 in the drawing but i'm thinking maybe 5x6.
Thanks in advance to a wonderful community.

dchizem
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by NZChris »

What are you wanting to make?
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

Im wanting versatility to explore most spirits. It will be made of stainless steel and the inline sight glass can be filled with copper SPP as a catalyst or used as a gin basket, the thumpers can also be used for the introduction of various flavours.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by greggn »

> The boiler will be two pipe spools a 6x4 inch attached to a 6x6 with tri clover ends(total volume approx 5L).

As a working model to demonstrate the concepts of distillation, say in a classroom, that design would be nice. As something to generate a drinkable product for your long-term enjoyment ... it's way too small.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by still_stirrin »

dchizem,

This "modular" adaptation will be very expensive for what it is. My source shows the 6" triclover spools are >$200 USD each, 6" TC clamps are >$25 USD each, 6"x3" reducers (I don't even see 6"x2") are >$325 USD each, and 6" blanking plates are >$60 USD each. And with the target still only 5 liters, the practical utility is far overshadowed by the investment cost.

You would be better off getting a stainless stock pot and a few pieces of copper tubing. Even purchasing a "milk can" boiler and still head would be more financially viable.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

I think i might be able to put it together for abit less than that. Long term enjoyment i have my keg which I will be able to attach the same head to anyway, plus a Boka. I'm interested in this as a modular system to work in conjunction with larger set up, as a very practical lab still so to speak. Testing various types of raw material, yeasts, techniques ect plus essence's, tincture reductions ect. So i have a few ideas of what to do with it to make if worth the investment, and have a fair idea that the design will work for my intended use, just looking for some confirmation from a few minds on the working functionality of the design.
Also going with 5L because I'm wanting it to work in with the fondue pot oil bath configuration.. :)
Thanks again for you help and support

Dchizem
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by still_stirrin »

dchizem wrote:I...have a fair idea that the design will work for my intended use, just looking for some confirmation from a few minds on the working functionality of the design.
It doesn't matter (to you) what we say. You've already been given comments that you've disregarded. You're gonna' do what you're gonna' do anyway.
dchizem wrote:Also going with 5L because I'm wanting it to work in with the fondue pot oil bath configuration.
This is backwards...trying to fit requirements to a solution. The correct approach (and most successful funtionally & economically) is developing a solution once the requirements are fully vetted.

Good luck.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

I'm really sorry mate have I offended you? Really was not my intention. I appreciate the advice on the size of the boiler and the economics of the design, what is the major fault with a 5liter beside the yield and smaller cuts? I am hoping to see if the specs of this design will work. If the fondue pot cannot throw out enough heat to power it then a different heat source will be utilized. But really I am looking for 5l set up, I'm not trying to disagree with anything, I'm only going by what I have read as to what I think may work, I am really just reaching out for for what peoples thoughts are. I really would like to hear your thoughts?
Your main concern was price, I'm not thinking of price im just trying to do something right that will be modular and relatively small

Kind regards
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by greggn »

>If the fondue pot cannot throw out enough heat to power it then a different heat source will be utilized.

I suspect there's way too much thermal mass in your still design for a fondue pot to able to heat and hold at a boiling temperature.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

Perhaps a secondary heat source under the thumper/thumpers for the heat up? Would that help
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by still_stirrin »

dchizem wrote:I'm really sorry mate have I offended you? Really was not my intention. I appreciate the advice on the size of the boiler and the economics of the design, what is the major fault with a 5liter beside the yield and smaller cuts?
No, I'm not offended at all. It's just that I foresee the road ahead of you even though you deny it. You think you know what you want, but you haven't been down this path yet. I'm just trying to save you some steps ($$$$) along your journey. Go ahead and spend the $1k....it's your money. But realize that there are much, much more economical solutions to what you want to do.

5 liter boilers (4 to 4.5 liter max) charges at an average of 10%ABV (optimistic) would give you roughly 400 to 450 ml of product (at the theoretical 100%ABV). But more than likely your low wines will average 50%ABV, which would net you roughly 800 to 900 ml of spirit, and that includes heads and tails (low wines, remember). It is "doable", but if you collect 3 runs of low wines to make a spirit run in the 5 liter boiler, you'll have to collect your portions in 100ml (or smaller) vials to make your cuts from. This will make it difficult to do.

Now, with that said, a 5 liter boiler would work swell for making a gin, where you've already made good cuts and you're only running clean hearts. You could even put your botanicals into the cute little thumper.
dchizem wrote:I am hoping to see if the specs of this design will work. If the fondue pot cannot throw out enough heat to power it then a different heat source will be utilized. But really I am looking for 5l set up, I'm not trying to disagree with anything, I'm only going by what I have read as to what I think may work, I am really just reaching out for for what peoples thoughts are. I really would like to hear your thoughts?
What is the power rating of the fondue pot? For a 5 liter boiler, I believe you'll need at least 1kW of heat to get it boiling. And once it's heated up, 800W may get you by.

But keep in mind too, that stainless steel doesn't conduct heat near as good as copper, so getting the heat from the fondue pot through the spool walls and into the wash will take MORE power than if your boiler was a thin walled stainless stock pot, or even a copper pipe/sheet construction. I haven't run your thermal calculations (heat conductivity) because I get paid to do that. But, I have a very strong instinct what will work efficiently and what won't.

And as an engineer, I could never justify the expense of 6" spools to construct a boiler...simply not the right tool for the job. But again, you've got "more dollars than sense", so you'll do what you want regardless how many here suggest a different approach.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by skow69 »

The thing is that a fondue pot is intended to limit it's heat so as not to burn the contents. You do not want that limitation, thumper or no. It may be capable of achieving a boil, but it is liable to take a very long time. Why not put your spools in a pot of glycol heated by flame, or by a submerged electric element selected for the task? Plus you would be paying for a thermostat that you will just have to bypass.

External heat for a thumper is, IMHO, a bad idea. You don't want it to boil faster than the primary boiler can feed it. Once the primary achieves boiling it takes very little time for the secondary to come on line. I have run 3 thumpers with no problem using only the heat from the main boiler. The charge in each thumper naturally becomes higher in alcohol content than the previous one, so the boiling point is lower. If you want to help them, charge each one with low wines or feints of a higher ABV and insulate everything, but don't try to heat the thumpers.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by still_stirrin »

Good point skow. A fondue may not be up to the service demands. The do utilize a resistive coil and a thermostat controller typically, although we don't know what the OP has, or intends to use.

I have used a deep fat fryer before to heat a boiler (bain-marie style) using vegetable oil. It was easy to set the thermostat to 220-230*F and the boiler would quickly come online and maintain a good boil. But again, this was a temperature controlled boil instead of a heat controlled boil. The result was that the charge evaporated at a decreasing rate once it started to boil. The fastest production was the initial part of the charge.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

https://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-CFO-3S ... B00018RR48" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This is the fondue pot that I have. It has a max heating temp of about 180 degrees Celsius and is 1kw( so good to know you think this amount of power will manage! I have seen this used for heating a solvent recovery system, in which the user was recovering ethanol. If it doesn't work then I will heat in pot over flame, just want to avoid flame and i have the fondue so thought it may be good. Glycol? Is this a better option than a vegetable oil? Thank you for the advice about not heating thumpers! I was planning on insulating :) as far as thickness of stainless in the build what would you recommend? I can get the spools at a variety of thicknesses. And any thoughts on my condenser, should be enough right?
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by Pikey »

Well I have a 27 litre and input 2.5 kW - turned down most of the time to 1.5 - so 1 kW will "Piss it" on 3 litres ! :wink:
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

Ok awesome! Thanks pikey. Greatly appreciated. Am also hoping someone will chime in about the thumper and condenser configurations that is in the preposed design? And also best buffer liquid? Any cool features i may have missed? Any thoughts? :) very responsive forum!

Thanks a bunch guys
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by still_stirrin »

dchizem wrote:...It has a max heating temp of about 180 degrees Celsius and is 1kw...If it doesn't work then I will heat in pot over flame...
Cuisinart website says it is 1kW, which puts you on the "ragged edge" for success.
https://www.cuisinart.com/products/spec ... s/cfo-3ss/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
dchizem wrote:...Glycol? Is this a better option than a vegetable oil?
Oil is better than glycol...it has a much higher boiling point which will transfer heat better before it gets to its boiling point. Again, it is the heat transfer rate you desire, not temperature. Temperature (difference) is the scaler measurement which provides the "potential" for heat transfer. This is analogous to voltage in an electrical circuit...only you're trying to regulate the current (heat transfer), not the voltage. And the various heat transfer coefficients (convective in fluids and conductive in solids) are the "resistance" in the electrical circuit analogy.
dchizem wrote:...as far as thickness of stainless in the build what would you recommend? I can get the spools at a variety of thicknesses.
As thin as you can with the boiler...think of the electrical resistance analogy. For the thumper it would be the opposite...you want to contain the heat, not transfer it (insulation), to get the thumper operational.
dchizem wrote:...And any thoughts on my condenser, should be enough right?
Well, you'll lose a lot of heat along the path, so it should work. The biggest problem will be the heat source being marginal for such a system. You only have to remove as much heat as you put into it, so the fondue's limitations reduce the condenser's workload as well.

Did you have a look at the parent site calculators for condenser sizing? Do that. A 3/4" ID over 1/2" ID Liebig is easy to build and most effective...you don't need a large water jacket to provide adequate cooling power. More critical to Liebig sizing is the length, which provides the conducting surface area for the vapor to liberate its heat into.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by still_stirrin »

Oh, and I would recommend using tubing no smaller than 1/2" ID for any of your vapor piping, and that includes the inlet to the thumper all the way through your Liebig product condenser. With a smaller tube, the vapor will accelerate to the point where the throughput will "choke", maximizing the vapor transmission. If the heat source and the wash is heated beyond this maximum allowable throughput, the pressure will build up in the boiler....which is dangerous.

If you didn't have a thumper in the system, you may get away with the 3/8" ID tubing. But with it, you should keep all plumbing at 1/2" ID or greater.
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edited to correct my "fat-fingered" spelling
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

Ok great! Thanks so much for the advice still stirrin! Greatly appreciated. And specific vegetable oil proves best?
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by still_stirrin »

dchizem wrote:...Any specific vegetable oil proves best?
Extra virgin olive oil (I prefer extra virgins too). :wtf:
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

I put that size Liebig in the design because I found one pre built that size for a good price. But that's ok I can make one or get one made up to you recommendation. I did use the parent site and concluded it would be enough but I guess a bit of over engineering never goes astray :)
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by still_stirrin »

dchizem wrote:I put that size Liebig in the design because I found one pre built that size for a good price.
Oh, so now cost DOES matter?
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

Haha not really. that aspect was more because it was just done and ready to go for me and I thought it would work. Im really appreciating your inputs. Thank you. Every expensive component in the design is going to have a useful effect that I'm looking for. I'll post the finished result and costing at the end of this if you would like to see how the experiment pans out. I would love for people to think about this post as If money was not a factor what would be the absolute ideal with all bells and whistles for a test\gin still. This is what I'm going for. I want very high quality for this unit. I hope you don't think I have more money than sense, I'd like to think I have abit of an idea of what's going on. But am very aware i have alot to learn, currently embarking apon my GCD with the IBD and loving it. This subject is so broad and everyone has there strengths and weaknesses. Got alot from this topic so far
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by skow69 »

I will have to disagree about the heat transfer medium. Propylene glycol has a boiling point of 188C, which is above the maximum capability of your heat source so there is no downside there. For oil, the limiting factor is the smoking point. For vegetable oils it is around 200C. But my experience has been that the oil gets nasty before it ever reaches that point. Think of used oil from a deep fryer. Personally, I found it messy and unpleasant, plus I was continuously buying replacement oil. YMMV.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

Are there any considerations when working with glycol?
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by still_stirrin »

dchizem wrote:...I would love for people to think about this post as if money was not a factor...
"Investing" and "spending" are two different things. Invest wisely and minimize spending.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

That is indeed what I'm trying to do :) would love for ideas to flow based on the end result not the budget, the budget ill take care of once the plan is finalised.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by nuntius01 »

well, if you do work with glycol, there are two main kinds. ethylene and polypropylene glycol. polypropylene is food grade. ethylene is not and need to be handled differently. you really need to look at the specs on both and on what percentage concentration you will be using. that will drive your heating and cooling limits. after following the thread, i have to agree with still. i foresee to many issues with the fondue pot, further, if you really want to do heat transfer with a medium, then your safest bet is steam. it's efficient, fairly safe and water is cheap. as a mechanical engineer, i can appreciate what your wanting to do. i just see a lot of potential hiccups. but hey, some of the best learning experiences are from trying.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by skow69 »

I am no engineer, so if I am way off base, I hope someone will correct me, but I feel obligated to clarify a few points based on personal experience.

Ethylene glycol is a toxic substance that smells and tastes sweet. Pets are notoriously bad at reading warning lablels. I would never consider it for this application. I don't know what polypropylene glycol is and I have never seen it for sale. Propylene glycol is the preferred antifreeze for use in RV water tanks. It is available anywhere for around $20 per gallon.

Liquid media, such as water, oil and glycol, can be used in an apparatus as simple as a double boiler or fondue pot. Steam adds layers of complexity for containment and safety. No one should attempt steam heating without ample research. Steam under pressure can be extremely dangerous.

Just my 2 cents. In the end everyone has to take responsibility for their own choices.
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Re: 5L experimental pot still with thumper/s

Post by dchizem »

Yeah was more going with the simplicity of a heating medium that did not need to be used under pressure (at least not at this point). Loving the input, just about to put some more refined plans together, to send of the the suppliers, adding a few things here and there, and slight adjustments mentioned on the thread, so really appreciate this assistance. the fondue pot seems to be the main thing people are seeing some fault with. i guess i'll just put the design together and test and report the findings :) if there are any thoughts in the design itself or any cool add ons, chime in. Likely be putting some little sight glasses on the boiler and thumpers and boiler/ thumper thermowells also.
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