What does a Thumper actually do?

Simple pot still distillation and construction with or without a thumper.

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Kareltje
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Kareltje »

Pikey wrote:
The Baker wrote:
skow69 wrote:
Kareltje wrote:And what if you heat the thumper?
I don't see any advantage that could justify the extra cost. ....
I think, whether you heat the thumper independently or via the still, it would take exactly the same amount of energy to heat the same amount of liquid to the same temperature...

Geoff
Apart from the losses I think you are right.
Using the energy of condensation might help raising the ABV of the output, because the condensation at the same time causes a higher ABV in the thumper. But when the primary boiler is emptied, heating the thumper might shorten the tails. Rather than steam distilling. (Of course you have to keep the boiler on steam too.)
Pikey wrote:If you bear in mind that chart which skow conveniently posted, The higher the temperature in the thumper, the lower the abv of the charge needs to be to distill and the lower the resultant condensate
Edit: will be.

Now we already know that the longer we can delay the thumper reaching boiling point, the higher the abv of the charge will be, and again from that chart, the higher the resultant condensate will be, so I cannot see any reason why we would want to hurry that process up. Surely the colder the thumper starts the better
Edit: ?
You have my attention, for I have to preheat the load of the primary boiler and out of habit I did the same with the load of the thumper.
Next opportunity I will note the difference between preheating or not the load of the thumper.
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Pikey »

skow69 wrote:Pikey, Oops. It sounds like I just misinterpreted. I think it was the idea of refrigerating the thumper that threw me off, but I see where you were going with that now. Sorry about that.
No problem skow - I do sometimes tend to "miss a few steps" - I'm thinking this a great discussion by way of understanding an apparently nebulous concept ! 8)
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Pikey »

Kareltje wrote:
......
Pikey wrote:If you bear in mind that chart which skow conveniently posted, The higher the temperature in the thumper, the lower the abv of the charge needs to be to distill and the lower the resultant condensate
Edit: will be.

Now we already know that the longer we can delay the thumper reaching boiling point, the higher the abv of the charge will be, and again from that chart, the higher the resultant condensate will be, so I cannot see any reason why we would want to hurry that process up. Surely the colder the thumper starts the better
Edit: ?
You have my attention, for I have to preheat the load of the primary boiler and out of habit I did the same with the load of the thumper.
Next opportunity I will note the difference between preheating or not the load of the thumper.
[/quote]

With your proven quality of charting, II'd love to see your results :)
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Kareltje
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Kareltje »

Made a model this afternoon. Bit scetchy and I am not 100 % sure it is all correct, but as far as I can see the results are at least close to truth.
I calculated step by step what goes out of the boiler and was stays in it. Than the stream out the boiler goes into a thumper, both adding to the volumes and the heat. For the latter I only calculated the heat of vaporizing equals the heat of condensing and so raising the temperature in the thumper. (This is too simple to calculate the self-filling thumper, but that is cooled too, so an exceptional case!)
For starters I took 5 ltr of 12 %ABV in both boiler and thumper, in steps of 240 kJ. See what happens from the moment the primary boiler starts producing:
dreunvat-model.jpg
The line for the temperature out the thumper is just an indication to show when it starts distilling.
Clearly the %ABV in the thumper rises first before it starts producing.

It definitely can be refined, but it already is fun to play with.

Edit: a view on the volume in boiler, transferred volume, volume in thumper and volume of product.
dreunvat-doorstroom.jpg
As you see: the transferred volume first delivers mainly its heat to the thumper and after the thumper starts to produce, it produces slightly more than it recieves.

Until now I do not see any large deviations from my few findings in real stilling. Please tell if you do.
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Pikey »

I like that K 8) - Both 5L filled with 12% wash - yes ?

Ketel = still ?
Dreunvat rest = Abv of thumper charge - yes ?

You forecast around 8-10% increase in abv from the thumper distillate and it holds it proof a little better at the beginning, but definitely seems worth the effort for flavoured washes and AGs. 8)

Tht self charging thumper would be amazing wouldn't it ? bearing in mind your initial charge would be the heads and early hearts, from your 1st distill with no dilution - so up towards 60% on most pots I think. :shock:

Did you calculate each step by hand or did you work up formulae so you could do "What if's" without too much bother ?

[Edit - for your edit - That's interesting K the only thing surprises me a little is that 1L rise in thumper vol which I expect is fine, but then it loses 800 ml or thereabouts, I find that level of reduction quite surprising but then the latent heats of the two substances are quite large. 8) ]
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Kareltje
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Kareltje »

Yes, I did it in Dutch, of course. But most words should be easy to translate.
Ketel = kettle = boiler
Dreunvat is a literal translation of thumper: dreun meaning thump and vat meaning vat or vessel.
And indeed: %ABV.
I hoped most of our collegues are smart enough to understand. At least you are! :D

The thumper indeed seems like a 1,5 still.
Working with a model makes it possible to play. I could show the graphs of the separate boiler like a pot still and compare it in the same graph with the result of a thumper. The graphs of both parrot and total product.

I took the known physical constants of water and alcohol. I have a quite neat model describing the %ABW of vapour at a %ABW of fluid (Binous & Al Harthi, of an Saudi Arabian University !!), I have formulae of calculating %ABV vs %ABW and back (neglecting the contraction!) and I have variables for volume and %ABV for boiler and volume, %ABV and starting temperature for the thumper. I have no good calculation of temperature vs %A, so I worked my way around it.
Oh, and I have a variable for the energy input per step.

Than the building of the model is quite forward. Step by step I try to envision what happens and how to calculate it. And when I end up at the end, I think of the next step. Which is different from the first.
Than I copy the second step to the third etc.
And than it shows I made some mistakes. And more, and more. :crazy:
By changing the variables I can run other situations.

All in Excel, so I can make one formula per cell and copy cells at will. And there are programming opportunities, like IF.

I am planning to try a run with an empty thumper, but I have no cooling so I doubt if it is useful for me. I am afraid a lot of product will lag behind in the thumper.

I have a note of a run with 4 ltr juice in the boiler and about 3,5 ltr sediment in the thumper. After the run I had 1,5 ltr product and left in the boiler was 1,8 ltr, so 2,2 ltr was transferred from boiler to thumper.
But of other runs I did not take very detailed notes: I was glad to get the alcohol and taste from it without scorching. And measuring is a mess.

I could send you (and others) the Excelsheet. It is not a trade secret, so you can make adjustments, if you want. Or just play around.
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Pikey »

Yes I'd like a copy of your sheet please - I quite like Excel. I think i'm running 2013 - but last time I did If's was on 2007 I think you could do 7 nested if's in those days if I remember right - does that still apply or has it gone up like the sheet size has ? I'll pm you my e-mail.

As to language, you and der wo, Odin etc make the effort to talk to us in our language, it seemed only reasonable I should make the effort to work out what your words meant - Ketel and vat were easy enough, but I'm not sure knowing the Dutch for "thump" is going to be hugely useful lol.
Kareltje wrote:
.........I am planning to try a run with an empty thumper, but I have no cooling so I doubt if it is useful for me. I am afraid a lot of product will lag behind in the thumper......
That self charging thumper was filled by a worm in a water bath, which was heated until the bath was overwhelmed by the heat in the vapour - Your knowledge is so good, shouldn't you be looking at some cooling ? That evaporation condenser posted a few weeks ago looked quite smart - if he is to be believed.
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Tenkillsmore »

Some great info, thanks again for all the replies. I see in the pics [provided by link in Pikey's post] that the outlet pipe of the thumper [going to the condenser] is larger than the intake like on the stills, is this needed or can the pipe be the same size?
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by NZChris »

Tenkillsmore wrote:Some great info, thanks again for all the replies. I see in the pics [provided by link in Pikey's post] that the outlet pipe of the thumper [going to the condenser] is larger than the intake like on the stills, is this needed or can the pipe be the same size?
You may want to run with fruit, grains, or herbs in the thumper, so build something that won't easily get blocked.
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Pikey »

Good point Chris.

I don't actually run one, but it is on the cards. Trouble is I'm close to my neighbours and don't want to be trying to explain this "base drum noise" coming from my shop - do they make a lot of noise ?
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Kareltje
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Kareltje »

Excellent point of NZChris: filled for only 40 % with some heavy stuff it splashed up to the lid! Some time ago I had the pit of a sloe wandering into a 15 mm pipe!

I use a shower head at the end of the thumperinlet, to make the vapour drops spread out evenly. It makes a sound like some dieselengine or an old motorbike. But I do not recommend it though: I am always a bit stressed for the chance that it gets blocked. I do have a weak spot in the line from boiler to thumper, but woud hate to need it.
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Pikey »

Hmm - two questions answered in one then - I had wondered whether a diffuser like that would perhaps just give a steady "Hiss", but apparently not.

Has anyone tried to incorporate a "Receiver" like on a compressor to smooth out the pressure without it acting as a condenser too. ?

Otherwise it looks like I'm stuffed, little Brother came round the other day on his Triumph and you could hear him at the end of the street ! :(
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Kareltje »

Pikey wrote: little Brother came round the other day on his Triumph and you could hear him at the end of the street ! :(
Can't you make him ride up and down the street while you are stilling? So the neighbours blame him!

I could bore the holes out a bit, would ease my worries. It is not a hiss, but more of a buurrrp or brrrroom. I find that the insulation of the thumper muffles the sound a bit and I do not think my neighbour can hear it running i the kitchen.
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Tenkillsmore »

NZChris wrote:
Tenkillsmore wrote:Some great info, thanks again for all the replies. I see in the pics [provided by link in Pikey's post] that the outlet pipe of the thumper [going to the condenser] is larger than the intake like on the stills, is this needed or can the pipe be the same size?
You may want to run with fruit, grains, or herbs in the thumper, so build something that won't easily get blocked.
OK thanks. I don't think I was clear in what I was asking. I was wanting to know if the vapor needs the larger size pipe to leave the thumper like the vapor leaves the still thru the neck that then goes from a large diameter copper tube down to the 3/8" line size tube that leads to the condenser, or can the thumper have an intake size of 3/8" and a outlet size of 3/8" that then goes to the condenser? Thanks. P.S. I was planing on using a stainless steel tap screen to stop fruit etc from blocking thumper outlet tube, good idea or bad?
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Kareltje »

What goes in is more or less equal to what goes out. My one-hole-thumper-port has the same size for in- and for outlet.

I thought of a screen too, and it will prevent kernels of fruits entering the outlet. But in case of more sticky stuff, the screen might get blocked, like a sieve.
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Kareltje »

When playing with the model and adding heatlosses in the thumper (as a percentage of the energy input in the boiler AND a certain amount for radiation from the heated thumper to its surroundings) I suddenly switched my view. Odd feeling!

Until now I looked at the boiler as the primary vessel and the thumper as an helping addition. But you can also view the thumper as the main part and the boiler as a backing system. The boiler provides the thumper with heat and it starts filling the thumper with a richer solution. When at the right temperature the thumper starts producing according to its risen percentage, and while it is doing that, the boiler keeps on feeding the needed heat and it tries to supply more alcohol.
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by goose eye »

Dont know how it made but drill holes in pipe goin in an keep off bottom. Cut at 45 degree angle at bottom. Course this mite not work with yours. Wrap a pice of heater insulation around an it help mute.
Get you a driveway alarm bell they battery operated an can be hung anywhere.

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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

Running low wines in the boiler and water in the thumper, it smears the hell out of it. Never again.
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by NZChris »

Kareltje wrote:When playing with the model and adding heatlosses in the thumper (as a percentage of the energy input in the boiler AND a certain amount for radiation from the heated thumper to its surroundings) I suddenly switched my view. Odd feeling!

Until now I looked at the boiler as the primary vessel and the thumper as an helping addition. But you can also view the thumper as the main part and the boiler as a backing system. The boiler provides the thumper with heat and it starts filling the thumper with a richer solution. When at the right temperature the thumper starts producing according to its risen percentage, and while it is doing that, the boiler keeps on feeding the needed heat and it tries to supply more alcohol.
The last boiler is always the main boiler as it has the most effect on flavor. The last boiler produces your drinking likker, so what is in it defines your product. E.g., if you want to increase tails components throughout your run, put them in the last boiler, if you want to reclaim the alcohol from them but minimize them in the final product, put them in the first boiler.
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Kareltje
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Kareltje »

Thank you!
I did a stripping run today of 50 litres birdwatcher and got about 17 litres of 37 vol-%, divided over some flasks of 5 litre and intermediate pots of 500 ml. I planned to do a spirit run with the central 6 litres in my boiler first.
Then collect the first part of the stripping run and the heads of the spirit run and put them in the thumper. The corresponding tails I planned to put in the boiler. Hoping I can drive out the heads fast and can retain the tails behind the thumper in the boiler.

Just my thinking, but now your experience confirms it. I love it when a plan comes together!
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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Shine0n »

I would like to thank all who has contributed to this thread including facts and opinions on the subject of thumpers.
I've used a thumper for quite sometime now, the reason was at first because it raises the abv. Never thought about refining or anything other than that UNTIL I joined HD January 2016.
From that point I started reading and learning and found that I didn't know shit about this hobby other than making swill that just got you buzzed.
My thumper is a versatile tool in which has many uses!
Raises abv
A steam stripper
NO SCORCHING OF THICK MASHES
Adding flavorings
More initial volume (less time running)
I personally do not fill no more than 10 gallons (15.5 keg thumper) with thicker or grain filled washes because of possible over filling and blockages.
With this tool I have the option of a one and done run with flavor, higher abv or strip almost twice as much wash without having to break down and empty and refilling.
Can't imagine doing this without my thumper.

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Re: What does a Thumper actually do?

Post by Tenkillsmore »

goose eye wrote:Dont know how it made but drill holes in pipe goin in an keep off bottom. Cut at 45 degree angle at bottom. Course this mite not work with yours. Wrap a pice of heater insulation around an it help mute.
Get you a driveway alarm bell they battery operated an can be hung anywhere.

So im tole
Thanks for that, but I am so far from anyone that I don't need to worry about noise or being seen.
A backpack full of Moonshine beats a pocket full of Sunshine any time.
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