Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

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Jimy Dee
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Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Jimy Dee »

Hello Folks

I decided to add more copper to the rig (SS keg as the pot and a SS half beer keg as the thumper) so I got a length of copper pipe, cut it into little rings and put these copper rings into the SS pot. I used a good fist full of these rings. I thought the copper rings would do no harm and from the reading I have done I understand that it is better to have some boiling material in a SS pot.

Before doing my spirit run, I boiled the copper rings in water and also did a water and vinegar boil. I was satisfied the copper rings were good to go.

I did the spirit run with my pot and thumper yesterday all was going well, and the run went pretty well (contents of the rig were equal parts of strip from barley & wheat & corn & rye). The initial taste of the distillate was lovely and spicy, however this initial taste was swiftly followed by a very definite metallic taste which lingered. All the jars gathered from this spirit run all had the metallic after taste. Some jars smelled metallic also

Bottom line this stuff was destroyed with a metallic taste. This morning I smelled the copper rings in the pot and they smelled of the same metallic smell. Not only that but my pot and thumper all smelled metallic.

Now I wished I never put those copper rings into the pot.

Has anyone experienced this metallic taste/smell as a result of using copper? I know this question flies in the face of accepted wisdom that copper is the way to go, and I might be totally incorrect about the copper rings but I can pin point nothing else. I did nothing else different from previous distillations and I never got this taste before either. The only new addition were the copper rings!

Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

Jim
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by NZChris »

Did you taste the wash before you ran it?

Which jars tasted metallic?
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Worm_Drippinz »

I know that you said you boil them and vinegar etc etc but did you actually do a cleaning run or no?


I think NZ is on to something too... try tasting the wash.

the only time a run has ever tasted metallic to me is when I didn't do a good enough cleaning run.


But I've never actually had wash taste metallic so ??????


Maybe just boiling the Rings was not enough
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by kiwi Bruce »

Is your condenser copper, or is your whole rig SS. Was the product clear or very faintly blue? There should be nothing in or on the copper rings in the pot, that could distill over. I think NZ Chris is right, that the flavor may have been in the wash before you ran it.
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Jimy Dee
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Jimy Dee »

No, I never tasted the strip only the distillate. I find strip to be very coarse and I never bother tasting it.
I never thought of the strip going into it. I did smell the strip but there was no metallic smell from the strip. Remember this is a combo of a few different types of grain strips.
I never did rye or wheat grains before, so I am ruling the grains out. Could I be incorrect? Did anyone ever get a metallic taste from rye or wheat?

The pipes joining the two SS beer kegs are made from copper, may be in total 1.6 m (5.5 feet) of copper piping. What has me stumped is that this never happened to me before.

The night before my stripping run I boiled water for around half an hour through the whole rig to clean it, as I had not used the rig for a good while, and again I had my fist of copper rings in this boil too.

As for the sacrificial run with the copper rings in it, to be honest I cannot remember whether I did this or not. I was breaking in another rig and I did a sacrificial run around 2 plus months ago, and I cannot remember whether or not the copper rings were in it. I checked these copper rings before I put them into the pot and they were as clean as a whistle.

I did use our own well water, and this has a lot of magnesium in it, but it is lovely clear fine tasting water, really nice to drink. I had around 20 litres of strip and I had to add more than 20 litres of well water to it to bring it under 30%ABV for the spirit run. Would the magnesium in the water cause this metallic taste/smell? I cannot see this as being a factor as we use this water all the time and when boiled in the house it never has such a metallic taste. I have always used the well water for all my distilling and this was never a factor.

If it is not the copper rings it is a mystery to me.

Has anyone any ideas as to how to clean the rig? A new vinegar/water run followed by a small sacrificial run? I do not want a repeat.
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by JellybeanCorncob »

Well Jim: If you think you didn't have the copper rings in when you did your sack run before then this run took care of cleaning the copper in the boiler. My thought like I said before is I think you already have lots of copper up top. Maybe more isn't needed.
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Jimy Dee »

Yes JBC, I aint adding the copper rings again.
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by kiwi Bruce »

The reason for having copper in the rig is two fold...1) it's easy to work with...but you have that covered if you can put together a SS rig... 2) Some washes have sulfur, which copper can neutralize...the reason for the copper rings in a SS boiler.
The problem with copper is, it has to be passivated ever so often, if it isn't used every three or four weeks, for example. Not hard to do, just a quick rinse in a mild organic acid, citric, malic and yes acetic...vinegar. The purpose of passivization is it protects the copper by giving it a thin, strong, oxide layer, that cannot be attacked by the fumes during distillation. The worst fumes being ammonia, which comes from the yeast nutrient we use. This produces copper ammoniate and it DOES give a metallic taste to the distillate, and it can give the product a blue tint. This generally happens in the condenser if it's copper...if it's behind the condenser however, it shouldn't come over. Unless there is something like a strong chlorine salt in the wash, that could attack the SS, I don't know what else it could be...that's my best shot, Kiwi
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Jimy Dee »

Kiwi

Thanks for the reply. I had not used my still for a few months and I only did a quick 20 mins or so steam wash the night before. May be I should have put in a shot of vinegar just to be sure. I will do that in future. In reading your last reply, I do have copper mesh up the pipe of the condenser to stop huffing, I never checked it before the run. I wonder if that was gone manky?

Have you any suggestions as to how to clean it now?

Jim
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by johnsparrow »

Jimy Dee wrote:Kiwi

Thanks for the reply. I had not used my still for a few months and I only did a quick 20 mins or so steam wash the night before. May be I should have put in a shot of vinegar just to be sure. I will do that in future. In reading your last reply, I do have copper mesh up the pipe of the condenser to stop huffing, I never checked it before the run. I wonder if that was gone manky?

Have you any suggestions as to how to clean it now?

Jim
Lots of people have mentioned cleaning in a mild acidic solution, many of them in this thread. Hope that helps :)
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by thecroweater »

Have a look at your huffing muffler, its almost certain the issue. You are going to have to re-run it which will make it light but maybe you could add it to your next strip once cleaned up.
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

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kiwi Bruce wrote:The problem with copper is, it has to be passivated ever so often, if it isn't used every three or four weeks, for example. Not hard to do, just a quick rinse in a mild organic acid, citric, malic and yes acetic...vinegar. The purpose of passivization is it protects the copper by giving it a thin, strong, oxide layer, that cannot be attacked by the fumes during distillation. The worst fumes being ammonia, which comes from the yeast nutrient we use.
Really ?.....maybe you need to find a better sort of nutrient.
As for Passivated copper............Ive never done that to mine , and Ive never had a metallic taste.
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Pikey »

I thought citric acid cleaned copper a treat - I use that or oxalic as a soak to clean mine up before pulling stainless pan scrubbers through it.

No way anything which has ever touched vinegar (acetic) gets anywhere near my hobby room ! :lol:
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Tater »

I use a pot still ss keg with copper column and worm. I use copper pieces in my keg all time . I just rinse and dry after each use and clean maybe once a year with vinegar/water run . have never had any problems with taste metal or otherwise.How cool was condensing water kept is my thought .
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by kiwi Bruce »

Jimy Dee wrote: I do have copper mesh up the pipe of the condenser to stop huffing, I never checked it before the run. I wonder if that was gone manky?

Have you any suggestions as to how to clean it now? Jim
I've only had copper combine with ammonia once...and unfortunately it was a large batch too, that was enough, never again, I had to re-run it. Now I acid wash my copper parts regularly.

As for cleaning...if it's organic funk give it a wash with oven cleaner in a warm water solution, oven cleaner is sodium/potassium hydroxide and breaks down organic muck very quickly...then passivate it with an organic acid...of your choice.
I used to use oven cleaner to remove carbon from a diamond in a setting, if it had not been cleaned thoroughly and it was heated during a repair, the soap scum and dirt would burn onto the stone. Very hard to remove...until I discovered oven cleaner...However...WARNING! You must wear protective gear...oven cleaner will give serious burns to the eyes and skin.
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Jimy Dee wrote:Yes JBC, I aint adding the copper rings again.
For what its worth JD , many of the distillers I have met do run Copper pieces in the boiler , none that I am aware of have a metallic taste in there booze. If they do have I couldn't taste it.
Some of the advise that you are getting about copper and the cleaning of it seems unusual to say the least.
Copper stills need a good rinse out with fresh water at most and maybe a good clean once a year or so.
You don't need anything fancy to clean copper, simply dumping your still or its parts into a tub of hot dunder or backset for a few hours then a quick squirt with a hose will have it sparkling clean in no time. I'm sure there is a lot less toxic shit in dunder than in oven cleaner.
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Shine0n »

The copper mesh could possibly be the culprit, I stopped using it because it just looked and smelled funky after runs and I didn't like to have to clean it.

I highly doubt that low wines would have a metallic flavor but I can't say for certain Jim, maybe another run would've cleaned it up or maybe not.

Sorry I'm not much help but it seems to me the old funky copper scrubbers was your culprit.

B
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Pikey »

Saltbush Bill wrote:
......... I'm sure there is a lot less toxic shit in dunder than in oven cleaner.
I'm sure he did mean to wash the oven cleaner off after :wink: - But yeah backset is acid - that woud do the job.

I ran a second hand shop for a while and found the best thing for cleaning ovens and deep fat fryers - was straight petrol (Gasoline) - easily got rid of after with a match and a detergent wash ! :lol:
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by thecroweater »

OK well I'll be damned if I'd advise anyone to clean their still with petroleum but its probably still a fcuk ton safer than oven cleaner. C'mon guys some of the advise is getting sketchy.
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Jimy Dee »

Gents, thanks for all the replies. I have no dunder left as I used it all to make 2 all molasses fermentations that are fizzing away at the moment. I will prob just do a quick vinegar water "run" (with some lemon juice) through the system and smell the emptied pot and thumper afterwards. If the metallic smell is gone afterwards I will run my all moll wash. I am going to take the copper mesh muffler out from the condenser and wash that also. J
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Tapeman »

Jimy Dee wrote:Kiwi

Thanks for the reply. I had not used my still for a few months and I only did a quick 20 mins or so steam wash the night before. May be I should have put in a shot of vinegar just to be sure. I will do that in future. In reading your last reply, I do have copper mesh up the pipe of the condenser to stop huffing, I never checked it before the run. I wonder if that was gone manky?

Have you any suggestions as to how to clean it now?

Jim
Jimy, that is probably the cause. Can you check the condition of those scrubbies and report back? I've had a pack of them that got very green and nasty smelling when they were sealed up in a Ziploc bag between washes - despite being cleaned with hot water, soap and Starsan.

Chris

PS, I'm heading over to the thread on peat to update my findings on your sample.
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Worm_Drippinz »

So what was the final issue? Did they wash taste metallic? Was it from a poor cleaning run?


We all want to know!
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Jimy Dee »

After reading the posts I now know that the copper mesh huff muffler up the condenser pipe needs cleaning. I never did that.

Now, keep in mind that this huff muffler is at the END of the process, but the smell was in the pot and the thumper, so in my case it was not this mesh huff muffler in the condenser pipe that caused the metalic taste. Yes it might have added to it but the trouble was earlier on in the rig.

I now think that the rings of copper pipe I put into the pot were simply not properly cleaned. My run took around 8 hours and the only upside to the totally destroyed likker is the fact that the copper rings are now fully cleaned.

I have only one step left and that is to clean my whole rig and I will do a water and vinegar run with some citric acid and see of the smell vanishes.

Whether I am going to put the copper rings back in is something I have not decided on yet. I probably will.

If I was to do it again, I would get an ordinary kitchen pot and put water and vinegar into the pot and boil the living daylights out of the copper rings on a stove for at least 1 to 1.5 hours, and I would follow this with another boil of some crap likker (reduced to under 30%ABV). Then when it had two good boils on the kitchen stove completed, I would boil the copper again in ordinary water in the pot, let it cool and then taste the water. If there was no metallic smell or taste I would then let the copper rings into my rig. At the same time I would similarly wash any huff muffler for the condenser.
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by NZChris »

I reckon that next time you should taste the wash, not the low wines, the actual wash. Unless your copper isn't pure copper, I don't see how your issue, as you describe it, wouldn't have been a problem for every distiller with copper in their boilers.

This might help
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 0450.x/pdf
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Jimy Dee »

NZChris

Thanks for the PDF, I will read it with real interest.

Also I cannot argue the point with you as I did not taste all the low wines, and you may be perfectly correct.
I used a variety of low wines and there may just have been one of them that had the metallic taste. I am not out to stop anyone putting copper into their still, on the contrary I am probably going to put the copper rings back into my pot, but one thing for sure I am going to have the crap boiled out of them before they go next or near my rig.

For any new beginner reading this the moral of the story is to make sure cleansing of all parts of the still are thorough and critically important, AND when this is done make sure to taste that liquid we put into the still too before it is distilled.

We live and learn.

Jimy
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Re: Has using Copper caused a metallic taste ??

Post by Kareltje »

Maybe I am lucky until now, but I never had this problem.
I had a blue distillate, once. Nowadays I have a series that tastes soapy. But never metallic.

At this moment I have only copper boilers, piping and condensers and one ss condenser. Oh, and brass couplings. And bronze boiling coins. I never clean them, just rinse them after a run.
Oh, I do clean them: when they are scorched after a run. Or when the muck has splattered on the lid in the thumper.
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