new thumper/worm - low output when cooling barrel filled

[opihiman911]

I have been using a single pot still with a small copper worm for many years with great results. I recently came into possession of an empty beer keg that I decided to turn into a thumper and am having trouble with getting a consistent output from the worm. My set up is as follows:

15 gallon boiler with a 2" wide 16" tall copper mesh packed column going into 1.5' of 1/2" copper pipe to my 15 gallon beer keg with a cap on top that exits into 25' of 1/2" copper pipe curled into a 7 coil condensing worm that is placed in a 25 gallon barrel of water. I poured water into the worm and it drained properly so I don't think I have any low spots.

I pressure tested all my soldered fitting and they are solid no leaks. I hooked everything up and poured 5 gallons of vinegar into the boiler and 1 gallon into the thumper for a cleaning run with the condensing water barrel empty. Heated the whole system using my usual propane turkey burner and let it steam for 15 minutes with good steam coming from the worm exit. I filled the barrel full with water and the output stopped immediately. Gave it 5 minutes and all I got is a slow drip output like 1-2 drops ever couple seconds. Drained half my water barrel and the output increased to a slow dribble. Decreased the water to cover just the last coil and I finally got a nice steady pencil lead stream that kept going for a good 10-15 minutes but then started to get hot product out and the water warmed up really quick. Fill the water back to half and it slowed back down to a dribble. I cranked up my burner to 100% max and I got a little better stream but not what I'm used to from my original pot still. After an hour of playing with it and a cleaning run done, I shut it down and I got a problem I need to figure out.

I usually run my burner at around 25-35% of its max output, so running it at max isn't a good solution. I can't fill the water to cover just the bottom coil because I would be changing water every 10 minutes and end up with hot product. So my guess is my worm is too long and I need to cut it in half making a steeper down slope?? Or do I need a definite foot long 45 degree downward run on the entrance of my worm before it hits the cooling water?? right now its angled downward slightly right before it enters the barrel and hits the water. I thought as long as the steam hits the cooling water on a downward spiral it would just condense to liquid and drain down the coiled worm.

Any help or ideas would be appreciated before I start tinkering with my design again. Much appreciated.

Peace,
Opihi

[nuntius01]

i dont think you have a coil issue. your issue is a btu issue. now you're relying on your burner to heat up your boiler and thumper. if both your boiler and thumper are half barrels, thats a large volume that you are trying to heat up. try insulating your kegs. thats what i do and it helps. also, look at using a sixth barrel instead of another half. hope that helps

[Antler24]

Remember your not boiling a wash, water/vinegar runs will take considerably more heat to run than a typical wash, on top of that you've also got more volume than usual. Just crank the heat until you get a steady flow.

[Worm_Drippinz]

The only thing I can think of is you need to turn up the heat. When I went from a pot still to a thumper it takes a lot more heat in order to put out the same Trickle.

Try turning up the burner!

You need to figure out the cooling because when you add more worm and basically another boiler you're going to need more Cooling!

[Truckinbutch]

I'm running 15/15 into a liebig with no issues . The still does have to be driven instead of aimed . That is ; balancing heat input and coolant flow .
The different requirements of a vinegar run and the different temperature gradient because of the volume of the worm barrel is where I would look . You maybe missed taking enough time for temperatures to stabilize .

[opihiman911]

Thanks for the quick replies. I'n not sure its a heat issue as I forgot to mention I had thermometers on both the boiler and thumper and they both stabilized to within a degree or two of each other. I'll go ahead and give it another try tomorrow using the remaining vinegar and really crank up the heat. If I have to run my burner at max I think I'll have to look at upgrading to an internal electric heater. Heck maybe that the excuse I needed to justify to the missus to run me a new 220 line

Peace,
Opihi

[Yummyrum]

It wouldn't hurt to throw up a pic of your setup just so we are all on the same page . Especially keen to see what you call your turkey burner . Is it 1 ring , 2 ring , 3 ring , 4 ring ?
Does it have a standard regulator or an adjustable high pressure reg ?

I had a standard gas reg that became faulty and just wouldnt supply enough gas to run my keg boiler hard enough . Just a thought .

And just a reminder if you do a vinegar clean , make sure you follow it up immediately with a water steam up otherwise all your copper will turn greennish blue and your first run will be blue booze ..... not that it should matter on a sacrifical run but corroded copper is corroded copper
At minimum flush it with clean water to get rid of the vinegar .

[nuntius01]

Thanks for the quick replies. I'n not sure its a heat issue as I forgot to mention I had thermometers on both the boiler and thumper and they both stabilized to within a degree or two of each other. I'll go ahead and give it another try tomorrow using the remaining vinegar and really crank up the heat. If I have to run my burner at max I think I'll have to look at upgrading to an internal electric heater. Heck maybe that the excuse I needed to justify to the missus to run me a new 220 line

Peace,
Opihi

upt mine to 5500w best move i ever made.

[Saltbush Bill]

I had thermometers on both the boiler and thumper and they both stabilized to within a degree or two of each other.

Better to watch whats leaving the business end of the still and then regulate the heat accordingly , rather than watching those thermometers.

[Antler24]

Thanks for the quick replies. I'n not sure its a heat issue as I forgot to mention I had thermometers on both the boiler and thumper and they both stabilized to within a degree or two of each other. I'll go ahead and give it another try tomorrow using the remaining vinegar and really crank up the heat. If I have to run my burner at max I think I'll have to look at upgrading to an internal electric heater. Heck maybe that the excuse I needed to justify to the missus to run me a new 220 line

Peace,
Opihi

Forget the thermometers, it's meaningless. Just crank the heat until you get something coming out the worm. I'd agree with upgrading to electric. No dragging things outside or standing in the cold anymore. Saves a bunch of money too depending on your propane prices. I did the math and my electric conversion paid for itself before the first spirit run.

[opihiman911]

Here is a pic of my rig, nothing pretty or fancy, but she works. I don't use the column cooling or liebig cooler except if I'm doing a stripping run, in which case I attach a small worm in a bucket and do a fast a furious strip. A turkey burner is just the cheap propane burner that you get at home depot, I think its a 55,000 BTU single ring burner.

Thanks for the heads up about leaving the vinegar in the boiler and keg...a little to late Pulled it all apart this morning and it was all green and corroded. A quick sanding down of the parts I could reach and back to another cleaning run.

I don't really use the thermometers for anything other then there was already ports that I have to plug up and it just gives me an idea how close I am to product coming out and how close to being near the end. I do my cuts by taste and smell as I've learned on here.

So its heating up as we speak with another vinegar run. I'll report back in a couple hours how it went.

Peace,
Opihi

[opihiman911]

I got my rig heated up and steaming, nice neon green vinegar coming out

The burner is running at max output and the same thing is happening. Filled my water barrel to cover just the bottom 2 coils and I was getting a nice pencil lead stream. Fill half up and slowed to a fast trickle. Fill the barrel full and my output slows to a couple drips a second.

I don't think its a cooling problem as when the water barrel is full, I can see bubbles forming on the top two coils then disappearing as it goes further down and the output product is cool when it exits. So I know the steam is flowing down the worm correctly. So I'm guessing its a heating problem. Its a 55,000 BTU burner, say running at 90% efficiency I would be looking at 45-50,000 BTU under the main boiler. I can't really see myself running my burner at max for a 5-6 hour spirit run, just not efficient.

Or am I just looking at it wrong and is it normal for output to decrease when adding a thumper keg? In the past when I did a spirit run it would be a 5 hour slow and steady run with a pencil lead output. Doing a spirit run at this rate will turn it into a 10 hour run and using 2-3x the propane.

Is anyone else out there with a similar 15/15 keg setup using a propane burner? What am I missing? I'm going to go out and empty everything and do a water run to clean out the vinegar (lesson learned) and maybe tomorrow do a sacrificial run with some old mead and heads I have sitting around to see what happens. Sorry about the pic being sideways, I took it right side up and when I enlarge it it the correct way. Not sure what I did wrong in posting it.

Peace,
Opihi

[Yummyrum]

I run a three ring burner under mine with a High Pressure regulator .I'd be there all day trying to get it up to temp otherwise . Once the thumper starts coming on line ( making serious thumpng sounds before it settles to a fizz ) I back the heat off .
Think you need to upgrade your burner setup as It was probably only marginal with your old setup .

Thanks for the pic too . Interesting to see you are using a reflux head on your boiler although it doesnt appear to have any cooling water flowing through it . You probably should look at going straight from the boiler to the thumper if possable . I doubt it will make it run any better but makes for a cleaner setup

[Kareltje]

I do not know about propane burners, so I can not give any useful thoughts about that.
But there are some things I do not understand.
What is the stuff on top of your boiler? It looks like a cooling installation, with all the plastic hoses. What is it doing there?

Do you not isolate your still?

When you use a thumper, the thumper is run by the energy in the vapour coming from the boiler. The condensing vapour supplies the energy to heat the contents of the thumper and, when this contents reach boiling point, supplies the energy for the vaporization in the thumper.
There are losses all the way. Especially when you do not isolate your rig.

It seems to take a certain amount of energy to concentrate alcohol. For a standard 12 %ABV mash one makes 4 stripping runs to get a 40 % wash and then make a spirit run to get 70 or 80 %ABV.
When you use a thumper you can gain on the %ABV, but of course you lose on the energy.

I really do not understand your story about the filling of your cooling vessel. The rate or filling can not have any influence on the flow of your condensate. This flow is determined by the vapour produced by the boiling kettle and the thumper and is fixed at the top of your condenser. As long as your condenser does not blow vapour, that is.

[Antler24]

Yeah I don't understand it either. Is it possible the added weight of water in the flake stand is causing it to lean over a little? Maybe cause the coil to not let distillate flow?
That's the only scenario I can think of. Water level wont make a difference to run speed, and more cooling water definitely won't stop it from condensing.

[sltm1]

How long are you waiting after filling the barrel completely, before assuming that all you're going to get is a trickle ? I run a 7 gal boiler with a 3 gal thumper (less than 1/4 full), and my 1st half pint is a broken trickle till the jars just about full. Then it becomes a small stream that's consistent till the end of the run. I would suggest you do your 1st sacrificial run (1st true alcohol run) and see what happens before deciding somethings wrong.

[HDNB]

i think you are grossly over estimating the net output of the burner, they rate those at BTU input then the efficiency plays a key role in how many watts actually hits the boiler... but that said even at 50% efficiency you'd be hitting it with over 7000W, which should be more than enough.

whats the ambient temperature? is the regulator frosting up and slowing the gas delivery as the run progresses?

if so, it could be co-incidental timing of filling the flake stand with it frosting up making it look like the cause is the water being added. I would assume, since the extra cooling has no bearing on the output that if you let the water back out after it filled that the run would conitnue at the slow speed??

[Saltbush Bill]

From what i see here your using water and vinegar and having this problem.....your still will run a whole lot different with wash in the boiler.

[nuntius01]

I got my rig heated up and steaming, nice neon green vinegar coming out

The burner is running at max output and the same thing is happening. Filled my water barrel to cover just the bottom 2 coils and I was getting a nice pencil lead stream. Fill half up and slowed to a fast trickle. Fill the barrel full and my output slows to a couple drips a second.

I don't think its a cooling problem as when the water barrel is full, I can see bubbles forming on the top two coils then disappearing as it goes further down and the output product is cool when it exits. So I know the steam is flowing down the worm correctly. So I'm guessing its a heating problem. Its a 55,000 BTU burner, say running at 90% efficiency I would be looking at 45-50,000 BTU under the main boiler. I can't really see myself running my burner at max for a 5-6 hour spirit run, just not efficient.

Or am I just looking at it wrong and is it normal for output to decrease when adding a thumper keg? In the past when I did a spirit run it would be a 5 hour slow and steady run with a pencil lead output. Doing a spirit run at this rate will turn it into a 10 hour run and using 2-3x the propane.

Is anyone else out there with a similar 15/15 keg setup using a propane burner? What am I missing? I'm going to go out and empty everything and do a water run to clean out the vinegar (lesson learned) and maybe tomorrow do a sacrificial run with some old mead and heads I have sitting around to see what happens. Sorry about the pic being sideways, I took it right side up and when I enlarge it it the correct way. Not sure what I did wrong in posting it.

Peace,
Opihi

nice looking rig, post a pic on my thread. ok, it appears that your not putting enough heat into your rig. i run one or two sixth barrels, depending on what im running. i have pics of my settup in my link. what you are asking your burner to do is run two kegs at the same speed. yes this is over simplified. so, your options are to beef up your output of btu's or insulate and become more efficient. bottom line is that you will need to put more energy into hearing up your system. as, i've switched to electic many years ago, someone else may be able to direct ,you to the proper output for gas. but for electric, 5500w should be more than enough

[nuntius01]

ok , looking at your pic. is your piping from your boiler to your keg half inch. seems like the piping might be undersized going to the thumper keg, but, i run a 4" column and run 1" from my thumpers, so i may be a bit biased. you may want to look at that also as a reason for the slow output. by cutting down to half inch to the thumper you decrease output accordingly too. think of it like pinch points. again over simplified. but you get the general idea

[Antler24]

ok , looking at your pic. is your piping from your boiler to your keg half inch. seems like the piping might be undersized going to the thumper keg, but, i run a 4" column and run 1" from my thumpers, so i may be a bit biased. you may want to look at that also as a reason for the slow output. by cutting down to half inch to the thumper you decrease output accordingly too. think of it like pinch points. again over simplified. but you get the general idea

1/2" pipe doesn't have anything to do with his problem. There are plenty here that use 1/2".

[opihiman911]

Thanks for all the info. To answer and couple questions.

The column is the top half of a reflux column, I don't use the cooling water tubes up top. Being SS, I pack the column with copper mesh.

By isolate, I assume you mean insulate? No I don't insulate as its always 80 degrees and warm and I have good wind protection. I've given thought to wrapping and insulating blanket around the thumper.

Yes the burner is small and simple for what I could find locally. Took an hour to get my 12 gallon spirt runs boiler up to boil. Not that efficient.

Propane has gotten so expensive that couple years I'm giving strong thought to switching over to a 5500 electric heating element

I can't really understand how the cooling affects the output either. But I've done it a couple times with the same results. I somehow get a nice pencil stream with only the bottom coils in water. Fill to the top and it slows down to a dribble.

I think more power and heat and energy is the answer to this. Only playing....errr testing will tell

Opihi

[Kareltje]

You think your burner is too small and you do not insulate (OK) your boiler?
I have a 10-L boiler and when I put a 20-L oilcan around it (empty of course) it saves me half the gas!

But I must admit: with the naked boiler half filled, the top half seems to work as a half plate in a column. Due to reflux, I guess.

[Shine0n]

This one is called hell fire and heats my 15/15 up nicely, I also run a worm, 5/8" ID × 40' LG
I can come up to temp in the winter out in the non heated barn in 40 minutes, cut the heat back to dial into a steady stream.

I think you need to look online for this burner and think about a purchase too. It cost 150.00 USD and I love this thing, with 12 gal in each I still can get 3 runs with a 20 lb tank and for 14$ per fill or exchange it's worth it to me.

[sltm1]

TB +1 on "driven instead of aimed"