Do you know what brand of still this is?

[mash rookie]

What I am really interested in is operating instructions. How do they run this baby.
If we can identify it maybe info can be found online.

[Odin]

Might be a Holstein, the way it looks from here.

http://www.a-holstein.de/index.php?id=158" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Odin.

PS: on the downcummer from the column next to the boiler, that is probably not used for tails redistillation. It is simply an outlet for remains when run is done. Alcohol from distilling or water from cleaning run.

PPS: I have some German books on distilling, where they state how these babies are operated. Will try to find you some info or book titles, Mash!

[mash rookie]

Might be a Holstein, the way it looks from here.

http://www.a-holstein.de/index.php?id=158" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Odin.

PS: on the downcummer from the column next to the boiler, that is probably not used for tails redistillation. It is simply an outlet for remains when run is done. Alcohol from distilling or water from cleaning run.

PPS: I have some German books on distilling, where they state how these babies are operated. Will try to find you some info or book titles, Mash!

Thanks. I went to their site. It does look like a Holstein. Maybe I will email them with questions. I looked pretty close at this still. The first plate is active. It has a bubble cap and what you called the downcomer entered into the boiler above the liquid line without a trap. The main input is from the top of the expansion chamber entering above the first bubble cap and below the second. The operator stated that what end up at the first plate was returned to the boiler. It is more complicated than that if there is a bubble cap. I am pretty close to understanding their theory but need a few questions answered.

[Odin]

Hi Mash,

Technologie der Obstbrennerei (Pieter, Bruchmann, Kolb)

Getreide- und Kartoffelbrennerei (Heinrich Kreipe)

Have got some info on how to work one of those babies. I must have another book somewhere with more info. Cannot find it, will try again tomorrow.

In general, the desgin is a boiler of around 150 liters (can be less, but can also be up to 450 liters). The boiler is often heated by an oil/water/steam bath (when fruit wines are distilled). Than they have an actuator too. One of those ruthers inside to stirr the mash & prevent burning.

On top of the boiler is an onion. This allows for the mash to boil up, without the foam disturbin the distillation process too much. Also, the onion provides some extra refluxing area, but that is not the aim.

Originally, these Holstein and Holstein alike stills would have a bridge from the top of the onion to the product cooler. For reasons of efficiency the development has been to put "verstärkers" on top of the onion. "Strentheners"or "enhancers" might be a translation. By means of 3 or 4 bubble caps they do not have to redistill, but can obtain the goal they are after in one go.

The column with the bubble caps is always placed on top of the onion and so on top of the boiler. For your research, Mash, it is good to tell that there are no external downcommers. The design resembles the Magic Flute concept. The exception is made when a distillery does not have a high enough ceiling. In that case, the "verstärkers" will not (cannot) be placed on top of the onion, but will be placed next to it. Just like in your picture.

Now, this set up helps in distilleries with not enough head space, but they also cause a problem. Newton is there, but his apples usually fall down. Just like in your Magic Flute heavier particles, refluxed water, etc. can fall down to a lower plate or back into the boiler in the normal vertical sett up. With the column next to the boiler this will not happen. Refluxed water, fusils, etc. will collect and flood the lowest part of the column, because they cannot go anywere. By introducting the gasses higher in the column, this problem is managed. Fusil alcs may still be boiled of on the lowest plate.

Cleaning is also an issue, when the column is not on but next to the boiler. How do you get cleaning water out? Or even: how do you get tails that you collected (or that remained) in the column out? Normally they would fall back in the boiler. And that's where you want them, because like that you can collect & clean from one central place with a big tap to get the remainings out.

In the instructions on how to use them, a lot of information is gathered, based on fruit wine distillation. Because that is what these stills are made for: for making fruit brandywines. Apples, pears, plumes, abricots, mixed fruits, mostly. In all of the plans I studied & the books I read no mention is made on redistilling tails. That, together with the general outlay and what I learned about operating (and cleaning) them, makes me think that - yes - the lowest plate is off course redistilling high temp alcs, but the actual tube running back from the off set column to the boiler is for cleaning & draining purposes.

These "schnapps Brenners" are not ran in the same way as a magic flute. Eventhough they do have (normally) a dephlagmator. Hey, they sometimes even have a katalysator/katalyst. That is an extra piece above the deplag, filled with copper, and thus making for a higher copper/alcohol interaction. We all know what copper can do for a drink. This is especially true for fruit brandy.

Based on the drink (the sort of fruit brandy) the distiller wants to make, he chooses a certain setting with the "enhancers" and the dephlag. Is the drink he is making rich in flavour (and/or high in fores/heads), he will choose for putting "on" more enhancers and the dephlag as well. Thus creating a more pure concentrate for clear cuts with enough taste left. In the case of a fruit that gives of only a little taste, maybe only one enhancer is used. The others are shutted off & the dephlag will not work either. There will get more smearing between phases, and cuts are more difficult, but taste is preserved.

Distillations are run in batches. Heads are seperated from hearts. Tails are left in the boiler. Just choose the number of plates, the desired dephlag setting, throw in thecatalyst or not, and start collecting & making your cuts. In other words: no state of equilibrium is achieved or looked for in order to draw of head fractions. Something most people with a magic flute do, as I understand it.

Mash, a long post, but I hope it helpes you on your research.

Odin.

PS: Untill I saw the Magic Flute, I thought this Holstein was what I wanted. But ... at around 50K they are a bit, well, out of my leage!

[Odin]

An update on "how to operate a Holstein". I found the book I was looking for. It is in German and I am not sure if it can be found on the internet as a free PDF, but give it a go. It has the most info on how to run them yet. Som 14 pages in total. With drawings, etc. Too much to post here (let alone translate), but I will try to get the highlights over.

The book is "Von der Frucht zum Destillat" and it is written by Wilm Bartels. It deals with the whole process of making fruit brandy. Picking the fruits, selecting the fruits, crushing, fermenting and ... distilling by means of a A. Holstein distiller ... And that is what we are after, here, no?

Now, in addition to what I already wrote in the previous post, I learned a few extra things. I will summarize them below. Apart from telling a lot on how a Holstein works or should be run, I think the information is even more important to your theoretical questions on how a flute works, Mash, and your wish to compare a plate tree flute with a flute filled with "normal" packing. Here it comes.

The start up of the distillation process should be slow. So slow that heads (no talk about fores: they are considered to be part of heads) can be drawn off at a trickle (drop per drop).

Now my first thought was, reading how they draw off heads, "so they dó up the dephlag to at least partially compress heads & get a nice slow take of rate!". But further reading proved me wrong.

As a matter of fact, they normally do not use the dephlag in the heads phase. The dephlagmator is usually only put to work when hearts are being collected! My conclusion therefore is that is is by a means of power management that they get to a slow enough head extraction without (too) much smearing of heads into hearts.

The book then follows with what surprised me most. Sometimes, the book says, using the dephlag from the start is needed. When making Poire Williams (distilling a pear brandy), so much "Fruchtester" (fruity esthers) are coming over in the heads. Since they want these "Fruchtester" to stay behind and add to the taste of hearts (not to get to "thin"a taste" product), it is needed to put on the dephlag from the moment heads start coming out. The conclusion I draw from this (or the interpretation I give to this) is that the dephlag is essential for pushing back smell & taste components from the heads fraction into the hearts fraction. Now that might (partially, not finished yet) explain why a flute gets over so much taste, right?

When hearts are finished (a decision made by ABV & by smelling), they advice to up the dephlag to get some more hearts over. Sounds pretty much the same as what Kentucky Shinner says on how to manage his Hillbilly Flute.

Holstein works with bubble caps, not with perforated plates. The way they use bubble caps is different to how we do it on HD. Their bubble cap plates have a management system to them. By outside adjustments of the overflow caps for the downcommers, you can choose between 3 settings: "kochen" (boiling), "zieden" (?) and open/cleaning. In the first setting the overflow caps are in place and a lot of liquid is collected on top of the bubble cap. In the second setting ("zieden"), about half of the hight of the overflow cap is lifted. Thus, only a very small amount of liquid is assembled on top of the bubble cap plate. In the third setting, the whole overflow cap is lifted. No liquid will collect. An effective way to take the bubble cap plate on which this setting is choosen out of the equasion. This third setting is how they change a - say - 4 bubble cap plate column into a 3 or 2 or 1 plate operation. This "open" setting is also used for cleaning (backflusing) after the operation is done.

The second moment when I thought I read something really interesting as far as distilling theory is concerned came next. "Kochen" will give you a different result from "zieden". Setting 1 and setting 2 have differing outcomes and are used to obtain different goals.

"Kochen", with the overflow cap in place and a lot of liquid on top op the bubble plate will give more gass/liquid interaction, driving for a higher ABV with less taste. If a distiller wants to get over a lot of taste, he will choose "zieden", where the overflow cap is only half as high. The abv will augment less, compared to setting "kochen", but ... taste & smell components will come over much more.

Looking at the Magic Flute, with perforated plates, I can imagine that a phase shift between "kochen" and "zieden" takes place automatically. As ethanol is almost depleated in a Magic Flute run, the lower plate or plates allmost stop working. Or so it seems. Could not a gradual transition from "kochen" to "zieden" take place. Less downflow of ethanol rich liquids, less liquid (or less enriched liquid) on top of the plate does not only signal the hearts run to be allmost finished. The final stages, creating a "zieden" phase, may well be a (the?) reason so many tails taste & smell components get over without the actual fusil alcohols coming over into hearts. Just theorizing here.

Now, a lot more info is given on how to use different settings (copyright A. Holstein, so really from the source ya want to drink from), beautiful pictures, drawings, and tables listing when to cut on different fruit brandy's are included as weel. Too much info to post here. If it helps, I can try and get if over as a PDF.

Last remark on how they see heads & tails: "Some distillers collect them and add them to the next run. We are very much against that because eventually accumulation of bad alcs takes place & quality of the next ran hearts section will be less." Logical, when making fruit brandy's and not distinguishing between fores and heads, I think.

Odin.

[LWTCS]

"Kochen", with the overflow cap in place and a lot of liquid on top op the bubble plate will give more gass/liquid interaction, driving for a higher ABV with less taste. If a distiller wants to get over a lot of taste, he will choose "zieden", where the overflow cap is only half as high. The abv will augment less, compared to setting "kochen", but ... taste & smell components will come over much more.

Particularly interesting to me as all of my plates hold much more liquid....And my observation is that when self filling (via dephlegmator) and allowed to cycle in reflux mode for a good long while,,,,,,the distillate is pretty clean.

I need to do a side by side with my neighbor's Bok to fully understand how clean.

[Odin]

LWTCS,

I think from HD-perspective, using fractionating stills and so, aiming for equilibrium first sounds completely logical. Holstein and actually pretty much all of German distilling is focused on potstilling in general and fruit brandy in special. Maybe they did not even ever consider trying to go for equilibrium. On the other hand, they just might need some smearing of the heads into the hearts, just to get to a better tasting product over time thry ageing.

Don't know what is "right" or "wrong" here. I do not have a flute, let alone a Holstein. Just wanted to get the information on how they work across and found interesting things that made me think about distillation theory some more.

Odin.

[LWTCS]

Indeed Odin.
For me,,,this information sheds a new light on the observations that I have been making.
Thanks for posting.

[blind drunk]

"Kochen", with the overflow cap in place and a lot of liquid on top op the bubble plate will give more gass/liquid interaction, driving for a higher ABV with less taste. If a distiller wants to get over a lot of taste, he will choose "zieden", where the overflow cap is only half as high. The abv will augment less, compared to setting "kochen", but ... taste & smell components will come over much more.

Particularly interesting to me as all of my plates hold much more liquid....And my observation is that when self filling (via dephlegmator) and allowed to cycle in reflux mode for a good long while,,,,,,the distillate is pretty clean.

Is this a trial and error thing? How much adjustment can you make with your rig, LW? Does your unit allow for both kochen and zieden modes? or is it exclusively accomplished with the dephleg?

[LWTCS]

I can only dictate fluid levels with the deeflag and strictly trial and error.....
Sight glasses would be nice aye?
With out the defleg,,,,the thumpers act just like old school,,,nearly empty at the end of a run thumpers.

[olddog]

Eventhough they do have (normally) a dephlagmator. Hey, they sometimes even have a katalysator/katalyst. That is an extra piece above the deplag, filled with copper, and thus making for a higher copper/alcohol interaction. We all know what copper can do for a drink

Flute Mk11 has the laminar chamber above the dephlegmater

Holstein works with bubble caps, not with perforated plates. The way they use bubble caps is different to how we do it on HD. Their bubble cap plates have a management system to them. By outside adjustments of the overflow caps for the downcommers, you can choose between 3 settings: "kochen" (boiling), "zieden" (?) and open/cleaning. In the first setting the overflow caps are in place and a lot of liquid is collected on top of the bubble cap. In the second setting ("zieden"), about half of the hight of the overflow cap is lifted. Thus, only a very small amount of liquid is assembled on top of the bubble cap plate. In the third setting, the whole overflow cap is lifted. No liquid will collect. An effective way to take the bubble cap plate on which this setting is choosen out of the equasion. This third setting is how they change a - say - 4 bubble cap plate column into a 3 or 2 or 1 plate operation. This "open" setting is also used for cleaning (backflusing) after the operation is done.

The Plate dissabling system on Flute Mk11 will do most of this.


OD

[Odin]

OD,

Does your mark II Flute have an on/off switch system, or does it allow for what the Holsteiners call "zieden" as well?

Odin.

[olddog]

Where is the on/off switch system?


OD

[Odin]

OD,

In a Holstein, on every plate, there is a sort of rod connected to the overflow cap. By turning this rod you can have this overflow cap fully in place, lifted for half, or lifted completely. Lifting it halfway creates "zieden" less liquid on the plate, less abv gain per plate, more taste preservation than with the overflow full & more liquid on top op the plate.

Odin.

[olddog]

Each plate on Flute Mk11 has a drain valve, which is infinately variable.



OD

[LWTCS]

Mike how many variations did you put the still through? And were you ever able to measure maximum liquid volumes?

[mash rookie]

Larry, you really need to add sight glasses so you can tell us what is going on with your system. You are keeping me guessing.

Old Dog, Welcome to the conversation. Its good to hear from you. Have you ran different scenarios using different washes and settings with your MK11? All the work you did there I would really love to know how she performs.

I am particularly interested in neutral settings and whiskey settings. Were you able to have control that allowed adjustment for a particular wash?

MR

[olddog]

Have you ran different scenarios using different washes and settings with your MK11? All the work you did there I would really love to know how she performs.

I must admit that I have not experimented much with various settings as my main production is UJSSM and I am happy with the results I get. BUT I ran the still a few runs back, and when I had finished, I opened up all of the valves to flush the column with water, and I left the valves open so they would drain the column for storage until the next run. The next time I ran the still, I forgot to adjust the valves to maintain maximum liquid on each plate. I could not understand why the still was not bubbling much and the output was slower than normal, also I did not get the ABV I am used to, it was a couple of points below, and the whole run took a bit longer, but the product was still flavorfull, but it did not have that clean proofy taste to it.
I ran the still again a couple of days ago and realised that I did not have the valves closed on each plate, after closing the valves the liquid on the plates increased and bubbled vigorously like normal, the output takeoff increased and that clean proofy taste with the flavor I am accustomed to returned.
When summer returns here and I can get some fruit for my fruit wines, I will experiment with the settings to make fruit brandy.


OD

[Odin]

OD's experience is partially in line with what I read about running a Holstein. You get lower ABV with small amounts of liquid on your plate. Holstein also says that like this you should get more taste over and that is not what I hear OD write. Interesting ...