Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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ShineRunnah
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Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by ShineRunnah »

I have begun to source materials for my VM column. I have a 10' run of 2" DWV pipe, some 1" and am now looking at valves and such, as well as wondering if I should further reduce the take-off port and what type of valve should be used here, ball or needle. I plan to use SS valve as to avoid brass in vapor path.

I have 20' of 3/8" tube to wind a reflux coil from and a pair of needle valves to adjust flow, figuring one on input and output should provide plenty of adjustment and consistent flow.
Is there a formula to size the reflux coil I've missed or overlooked?

My planned height is 66", which should provide 48"+ of packed column. Anyone see any issues with that?

I'm looking for maximum purity, and speed being a secondary concern.
My go-cart runs on ethanol, so this will double as a fuel source for my toy, hence purity being important.

Thanks for any input, suggestions or help you can provide.
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DAD300
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by DAD300 »

and I heat my house with mine.

Read the links in my signature.
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
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ShineRunnah
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by ShineRunnah »

Thanks DAD, that's a neat design you've got there!

One bit of your design I think I'm going to use for sure is the corrugated stainless steel condenser. I like that idea. And it should be easier to form than wrapping a copper coil.

My only concerns on the sliding condenser are 1) you state in one of your comments that it works well in 3", but wasn't as well suited to 2" columns (can't recall your exact wording), and my column is 2" copper. And 2) my column will end up being apprx. 60"-66" tall, maybe a little less. Add the keg @ apprx 24" tall, then another 10" or so for the burner (I run propane), and the top of my column will be some 90"-100" tall, meaning I'd need a ladder to adjust the darn thing!

I like the design of the sliding condenser. I'm just not so sure I like needing a ladder to adjust my still!

I'll do a mock-up before I make a final decision, see if the sliding condenser is good for my application.

Thanks. I appreciate the info!
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DAD300
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by DAD300 »

CCVM works well in 2"...

I have CCVM in 2", 3" and 4"...I can make 95% in the 2" with 30" height, and 3" x 36" packed with SS Scrubbies.

I'm 5'8" and use a step stool to get to the top of my 36" column over keg and propane burner.

The difference between CCCVM or having a properly placed valve is ~6" in reach...

I'll bet you have a short step stool vs a $50 usd for 2" valve...
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
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thatguy1313
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by thatguy1313 »

I have a 2" CCVM. Made the tail of the condenser a little longer than normal and pointed as much as I could. Also bent it towards the wall of the column opposite the takeoff. I have much finer control now. If you ever want to do flavored drinks, you'll want your takeoff to be the same diameter as your column until after the 90° to the condenser.
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ShineRunnah
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by ShineRunnah »

Read up a lot on the CCVM, gonna go for it. Also been working on making my own SPP. I think I'm almost to the point I need to be at with it. Little more testing and I think I'll have it.

After seeing the glass column posted here recently, I've got to have one. I feel it will help me learn what is happening in the still so I can better operate it, and it looks awesome too.

Thinkin I may pick up one of these 2" sightglasses for the end caps and buy a piece of 2" borosilicate glass about 36"-48" long and make a glass column.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/271405928217?_mwBanner=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Shine NOLA picked one up and says it has ptfe seals. So it appears I could add some all-thread of proper length and a glass tube and be in business.

Have an electrician coming Monday to wire in a pair of 50amp 220v outlets in the woodshop, as most of what I currently have is hard wired and/or 3-phase. But I'm on my way to going electric! :thumbup: I figure electric offers more precise control of heating, and no more open flames, fumes, etc. Just need to figure out a controller on that end.

Damn hobby, gettin expensive! :esurprised:
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by myles »

Honestly there are no right or wrong methods here. I admit that my choice is a combined VM and LM. But it is just personal choice. All the designs work - you just have to understand the limitations of your chosen design.

I like to take the heads off with LM, run the hearts out through VM and leave the tails in the boiler for disposal.

If you do decide to go with VM just make sure that whichever valve you decide to use - you balance it with the entry into the RC. Unless you go for a proportional splitting design.

Build your head in 2" but add in a joint into the column, because I am sure that later on you will move the same head onto a 3" column.

A 2" head on a 3" packed column really works IMO.
VM Head.jpg
2" shell and tube RC, 1.4" vapour splitting T, 1.4" VM gate valve, air cooled coil and needle valve on the LM side. All on a 3" column.
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BigSwede
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by BigSwede »

I have one of those cylindrical sight glasses, it's a nice piece of kit, probably not going to be needed after a couple of runs, but I do want to see how the SPP appears during optimum run conditions, the ol' "partially flooded" or fluid bed recommendation. I'm going to put mine at the top where it should in theory be wettest. Can also test at the bottom to ensure no potential puking or worse a partial lock on updraft vapors.

I think you can find some at a better price, though, I seem to remember mine being $20 (China-Mart) for a huge chunk of stainless and glass. A bargain.

Think modular. You are in the planning phase. If you order one of those glasses, order a few ferrules and tri-clamps too, and think about potential ways you can make your rig alterable. It's fun to play! :thumbup: VM/LM/POT still
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by ShineRunnah »

With the entire packed section being glass, it will end up quite modular, as the top will be copper and attach via tri-clamp.

With the sliding reflux condenser, the condenser is the valve. I like it because of the simplicity. And if I decide I want something different, I make a new top section. Pretty easy in reality.
I like to make my still so they come apart, easier cleaning if necessary, easier changes when I want to do that.
I normally make my own flanges with my shop-made flaring tool, but I'm probably going to spend the money for copper flanges from Stilldragon. I figure I'll have enough money in the damn thing anyway, what's a few more dollars gonna hurt.

Myles, that is quite the rig you have there! Had to study it for a minute to figure out how it worked.
That's a bit beyond what I'm looking for, though it is very nice! I'm shooting for as simple as possible, and purpose built for one thing and one thing only, producing azeotrope.
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BigSwede
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by BigSwede »

ShineRunnah wrote: I normally make my own flanges with my shop-made flaring tool, but I'm probably going to spend the money for copper flanges from Stilldragon. I figure I'll have enough money in the damn thing anyway, what's a few more dollars gonna hurt.
I think a glass column is way cool for testing, observing, but of course isn't absolutely necessary, and likker likes copper.

There was some past beef here on HD re: Stilldragon, and I'm not all that up on it, but I can vouch for their copper ferrules. They are quite nice, look great, work well, at an attractive price.
shot25.jpg
Here is one of them on my shotgun condenser when it was being fabricated. They are quite beefy and take solder nicely, and have a nice profile too, better than the SS jobs that slip inside.

Good luck!
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by ShineRunnah »

BigSwede wrote:
ShineRunnah wrote: I normally make my own flanges with my shop-made flaring tool, but I'm probably going to spend the money for copper flanges from Stilldragon. I figure I'll have enough money in the damn thing anyway, what's a few more dollars gonna hurt.
I think a glass column is way cool for testing, observing, but of course isn't absolutely necessary, and likker likes copper.

There was some past beef here on HD re: Stilldragon, and I'm not all that up on it, but I can vouch for their copper ferrules. They are quite nice, look great, work well, at an attractive price.
shot25.jpg
Here is one of them on my shotgun condenser when it was being fabricated. They are quite beefy and take solder nicely, and have a nice profile too, better than the SS jobs that slip inside.

Good luck!
Thanks. I figure the glass will be a good learning aid. If I can see what's happening, I can better address my screw-ups, or at least I hope anyway! And seeing that glass column posted here recently gave me major still envy. Just super cool.
The glass wasn't nearly as expensive as I thought it would be. And when the idea of robbing the end caps off the sight tube dawned on me, I had to go for it. Even if I need to machine the end caps to fit the new glass tube, my father is a machinist. Just gotta wait for stuff to ship and cut a million pieces of SPP and I'll be good to go!

BigSwede, would you happen to be one of the guys that made a SPP machine, a really super high end looking rig if I recall correctly?
Now I see why one would go through the trouble of making a machine to make and cut the stuff, its a pain in the ass!!! Bought those new Irwin cutters that are supposed to cut really easy, but its still a pain. Gotta find a better way...
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by ShineRunnah »

I'm also unaware of the Stilldragon issue. Looked a bit, but haven't seen anything except a "HD doesn't endorse Stilldragon" or something. I hope I don't ruffle feathers, but they've been good to me and I really like the ferrules. I'm not a fan of the SS ferrules, and they don't fit in DWV pipe well either. Don't like to solder SS to copper if I can avoid it either. I try to get it so I can TIG the stainless stuff and solder the copper and leave it at that.

Shotgun looks nice, really good fabrication from what I can see.
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by BigSwede »

I made that SPP machine, and I sell it, but I will never, ever discourage someone from trying to make their own. That said, with genuine honesty, it's harder than it looks. On the bit (the mandrel, the thing that winds the SPP) - if you use the rules of thumb as far as dimensioning that I posted, you should be able to grind a bit that works, but I've made well over 30, and it took a dozen before I could get it to properly shape.

It's not hard to wind "spp" that is a closed, funky stainless tube, much harder to get lobe stagger and spacing. For cutting, a pair of sharp, crescent-shaped cable cutter type blades will chomp it all day in front of a TV, but it's not fun. Auto cutting, took me two months and three cutter generations before I had one that could plow through a kilo of wire without a stoppage.

You need stainless wire with a bit of spring temper. MIG welding wire from 0.020" to 0.025" is perfect. Soft stainless wire will just not work.

There's my "sales" pitch. I've hardly sold any at all because it's expensive, and I really can't make it cheaper. The darned wire is pricey to begin with.

Anyway, however you do it, good luck. I understand the glass tube thing, eye candy for sure. :wink:
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by ShineRunnah »

Thanks BigSwede!
I've been using .021 or .022 stainless mig wire if memory serves. I've got the lobe stagger down, spacing is a bit varied, but I can deal with that. Took me at least 8 mandrels to get close and a few more to get where I am. I'm at the point where I can make it ok, its the cutting that takes forever.

But I may have a bit of a solution. Basically, I welded a piece of steel tube about 1" long and just big enough for the SPP to fit through to the top of a big chunk of steel, with the tube opening close to the edge. I then welded a pair of snips so the tube feeds into them. I added an adjustable stop behind the snips and have a redneck SPP cutter. I manually push the SPP through the tube and against the stop and whack the handle of the snips with a mallet. Not super fast, but its easier on the hand! As long as the snips don't chip out, should be good. Had to rig a coffee can catcher as the pieces fling everywhere otherwise.

I'm not much good with electronics and solenoids, so while I could figure it out, automation isn't really an option.

However, going electric on my still and part of my new build will end up being mostly a tax write-off. See, I'm building a new "steam generator" for bending wood. :ewink: The copper tubing directs the steam into my steam chamber. And I happen to weld a lot of stainless in my woodshop too. :moresarcasm:
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Re: Gathering materials for VM volumn, few questions

Post by BigSwede »

Hey, that is a brilliant way to make what you could call a semi automatic cutter, very nice. I would love to see some pics of your SPP rig, and the nuggets and cutter too.

Don't know why I am so fascinated by the stuff, I just am... The process of winding it was challenging, then finally automating the whole thing was a trip.

Cheers! Sounds like you have a solid plan in mind.
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