3" Flute Build

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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The Yeasty Boyz
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by The Yeasty Boyz »

raketemensch wrote:What’re you using for your cooling water?
I am using city water via hose and a valved hose splitter. I have valves after the shotgun and dephleg but the valves on the intake help regulate flow as well.

poundtowne wrote:Yeasty, where did you get your ss ferules and sight glasses? I've seen a lot for sale online especially on ebay but I want to make sure I get the right type of glass.
http://visionstills.com/product-categor ... nts/glass/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow Still Dragon has them too but I was worried they would engrave their logo on the glass (which it looks like they do on their site,) which would piss me off each time I looked through them. Vision Stills also had the cheapest prices for every component I needed and everything I ordered was in perfect condition, I highly recommend them.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by Saltbush Bill »

The Yeasty Boyz wrote:I did a run yesterday and it turned out that 2000 W was not enough to flood the plates (while collecting.)
2400-2500ish is usually about right for most, a slower take of speed may have helped at 2000w.
I see all sorts of take off rates quoted for these stills but personally stick to 2-2.5L an hour. Each stills sweet spot will vary a little.
The Yeasty Boyz
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by The Yeasty Boyz »

Saltbush Bill wrote: 2400-2500ish is usually about right for most, a slower take of speed may have helped at 2000w.
I see all sorts of take off rates quoted for these stills but personally stick to 2-2.5L an hour. Each stills sweet spot will vary a little.
Good to know SaltbushBill. Im giving it another try with just the 2000w now. I just got it to flow. With only 2k w the plates are not flooding correctly. They are shallow and more uneven. Its putting out 170 proof as opposed to the 194 it hit with gas. As far as the collection rate goes that sounds about right, maybe a bit slow? I don't know yet but i would like to collect a bit faster than that. The idea of having a run take under 4/5 hrs is wonderful. My pot still would collect 140 proof at 2L/hr. I know the flutes can be run harder. I suppose it is a balance of time and flavor.

By the way SaltbushBill thank you for your threads on HD. I seem to run into one every day and they are always very helpful. :thumbup:

Here are the pics of the drain, element mounts, element housing and fill port.

I couldn't find a Stainless 1" NPT nut for the elements so I used a 1" threaded copper piece. With PTFE it seals perfectly. I sealed the elements to the hsouding and cords to the housing with Hight Temp RTV silicon to prevent any water making its way inside.

Buying two 6ft stove 240v cords + plug was cheaper than making one 12ft cord by hand so I went that route. The drain port was off an old kettle and so far I love having it. I made a few mashes the past few days and having the drain is really nice. I made the copper disk for the fill port. I just ordered a glass one so that I can see inside. This will help on stripping runs to ensure I do not expose the 120v element.
SS drain with safety lock
SS drain with safety lock
1" Copper
1" Copper
Element + Housing.jpg
Attachments
Before High Temp Silicone.jpg
Fill Port.jpg
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by Saltbush Bill »

The Yeasty Boyz wrote:the plates are not flooding correctly.
Flooding is probably not the word your looking for.
The way I see it a flooded plate is one that the liquid level is too high on, as in higher than the height of the down commer. Usually that is caused by to much heat input. From my experience , once a plate is badly flooded it looses efficiency and then two things tend to happen, ABV drops and tails can begin to smear into your product.
Thank you for the thanks :thumbup:
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by The Yeasty Boyz »

Ya flooding is the wrong word. With that little heat I couldn't get the distillate to pool at the depth of the downcomers.
I am glad that you brought that up. The controller parts arrive Thursday so Friday I'll do another run. Now having the ability to control the heat well i will be experimenting with too much and too little heat so I know what to watch for. So I'll keep an eye on the parrot and pool depths as I boost the heat.


As for the controller. I see a fair amount of builds on HD include a fan in the controller box. I read two threads where the OP said if they were to rebuild the co trolled they would leave out the fan. Given both Vision Stills and Still Dragon do not offer fans I assume they are unnessary. Anyone use either build kit from said companies? If so did you notice overheating?
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by zapata »

Still dragon kit here. Have a tiny tiny fan in it, like a 5v processer fan. Initially wired it sloppy so it was intermittent. I could tell box got warmer without it, but wouldnt have called it overheating at all. But, my vent holes are oriented so heat will rise over the sink and out the vent holes. If you don't want to use a fan you might focus on where and how many ventilation holes you have, whereas with a fan you probably have more freedom in that regard.
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by The Yeasty Boyz »

zapata wrote:Have a tiny tiny fan in it, like a 5v processer fan.
Thanks for the response. I dedided to add fans after reading you post.
I realized I have been sitting on an old 95 windows PC so I took two out of it and used those.

Contoller is built now and it works. Hooray.
I picked up a plastic junction box from Home Depo and used the 4A SSR, 470K ohm Resister. I did not put any fuses in the circuit. I have seen some do... Because the box is plastic I used a ground junction to connect the power in put/output/SSR/potentiometer.
The PC fans are ran in series off of a 12v phone charger cord and run across the heat sink. I used the diagram ( from google) below with the exception of the fans.
Controller top.jpg
Controller Side.jpg
Gizzards1.jpg
Diagram (from google).jpg
Im not big on working with electricity but after reading enough and working slowly it was very straight forward. Ill be testing it out on a mash either tomorrow or thursday. I also picked up the differety types of proofing hydrometers that vision stills offers. The price was right on and their 4pc set and I like how the high one goes form 70-100% ABV.


Side note... After reading the Flute talk thread from beginning to end I am a bit disappointed in how little development/discussion there has been since 2013. Don't get me wrong... the thread was straight jam packed with valuable info and it was a lot to digest. I am extremely grateful to have read it and learned what I did.

Like I was hoping to see someone have tested varying either quantity or diameter of holes in perf plates in the same tree. I did not see anyone combine bubble caps and perf plates in the same tree either. Although I have read OD say the he couldn't taste a difference either way.
Im curious who has built larger or more intricate dephlegmators.... I found that mine could not handle all the vapor when I threw 75000 watts at it. The output water was warm but the vapor path was too short and direct to knock all of it down.

Has the flute design peaked? What is next? What would be future improvements?
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by zapata »

The Yeasty Boyz wrote: I found that mine could not handle all the vapor when I threw 75000 watts at it.
I know some folks who had the same problem. They lived in a small town called Chernobyl.
Hey, It's friday night and my glass o corn is gonna have me laughin at something :)
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Oldvine Zin
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by Oldvine Zin »

The Yeasty Boyz wrote:[
The PC fans are ran in series off of a 12v phone charger cord and run across the heat sink. I used the diagram ( from google) below with the exception of the fans.
It's not a good idea to use the system ground as a neutral attachment point, ugly things can and will happen when that charger shits its guts - like sending 120 vac to anything that's in the ground path (your boiler) and then you. Most phone chargers are dual voltage 110-240 vac, if yours is I suggest that you hook up to the two hots instead of one hot and a ground.

Oh your flute build is looking great :thumbup: :thumbup:

Be safe
OVZ
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by The Yeasty Boyz »

Oldvine Zin wrote: It's not a good idea to use the system ground as a neutral attachment point,

Most phone chargers are dual voltage 110-240 vac, if yours is I suggest that you hook up to the two hots instead of one hot and a ground.

OVZ
Thank you OVZ. Im a lamend here and trying to understand exactly what you are saying.

First off I meant to say the fans are wired in parallel not series. The fans are not grounded to anything either... Should they be? ( dumb question not that I write it. ) The 12v power source goes into the box. Each yellow wire from the fan is spliced together and goes to the hot line of the 12v power source. Each black wire from the fan is spliced to the other wire in the power supply ( neutral.)

Second, the fans + charger are completely separate from the heating element/pot/SSR. The box is plastic and since the fans have no contact points to any wires going between the 240 power source and the keg I thought I would not need to worry about anything ( keg ) being hot if a charger died.
The Yeasty Boyz wrote: run across the heat sink.
By this I simply meant that the air flow blows across the heat sink.

Sorry for having you explain it more but now that I have clarified (hopefully) am I still wiring the fans incorrectly? The charger is labeled 12v 500mA - Input 120v - 60Hz .3A Output 12v-....5A So this means it would have only one hot, one neutral and one ground right?
Oldvine Zin wrote:Oh your flute build is looking great :thumbup: :thumbup:
Thanks!
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by zapata »

I'd have to sketch it out to really say anything aout how you have it, but I do have 2 thoughts. 120/240 dc 12v converters/chargers are widely available. About half of the ones in my junk drawer are 120/240. So that is how I powered my fan, right off the 240 coming into the controller.
2nd, GFCI protection is necessary IMO. It would protect from pretty much any accidental energizing of the keg. But I believe it prevents splitting the 240 to power 120 loads, another reason I used a 240v charger to power my fan. I know this is true with a 3 wire 240v gfci supply, maybe you can split 120v off of a 4 wire 240v gfci circuit?
Pretty much 3 options for GFCI.
1. replacing breaker with a gfci one. Cleanest install, moderately to prohibitively expensive depending on panel. Also provides gfci for entire circuit.
2. Spa panel. Usually cheapest but adds another box. Only offers gfci protection downstream so supply to spa panel is still a slight risk depending on location, splash protection etc. Can double as a handy master kill switch.
3. Inline gfci protector. Moderate to high cost. MAY have higher threshold offering slightly less protection. Cleaner install than spa panel, less so than main breaker. Only protects downstream similar to spa panel. Test button could be used as a master kill switch, but not as fail safe (it could fail the "test", unlike the spa panel which has a breaker physically breaking the circuit).

I have used all 3 at different times, though only used the inline units on 120V circuits.
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Oldvine Zin
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by Oldvine Zin »

The Yeasty Boyz wrote: Sorry for having you explain it more but now that I have clarified (hopefully) am I still wiring the fans incorrectly? The charger is labeled 12v 500mA - Input 120v - 60Hz .3A Output 12v-....5A So this means it would have only one hot, one neutral and one ground right?
OK going off of your wiring drawing I see 2 hots and a ground, no neutral - typical of a us 3wire 240 vac service. I also see that you have hooked up the neutral side of the transformer to the ground conductor, while this setup will provide 110 vac to the transformer it is not a proper and safe way to do it. Under certain types of failures the potential of sending 110 vac through the ground conductor is very real and possibly deadly. Power will take the path of least resistance, in your case right to your boiler.

As zapata said in the previous post - 120/240 volt converters are easy to find, another option would be using a 4 wire supply- 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground. Also gfi protection is a great thing to have.

Stay safe
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raketemensch
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by raketemensch »

I use the same box to hold the guts.

Many people go all out and install meters or gauges — what I did was just crank it to full until I hit boil, then adjust the knob until I get the stream I’m after. Once I had it pretty well dialed in, I used a dry erase marker to mark the knob position.

I adjusted it a few times over the next runs, then made the mark with a Sharpie. It’s all I need now — a Sharpie mark and a refractometer and I’m good to go. No parrot, no thermometers, etc.
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Oldvine Zin
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Re: 3

Post by Oldvine Zin »

raketemensch wrote:
Many people go all out and install meters or gauges — what I did was just crank it to full until I hit boil, then adjust the knob until I get the stream I’m after. Once I had it pretty well dialed in, I used a dry erase marker to mark the knob position.

I adjusted it a few times over the next runs, then made the mark with a Sharpie. It’s all I need now — a Sharpie mark and a refractometer and I’m good to go. No parrot, no thermometers, etc.
Damn that's what I do - now I'm acting like a banana loving ape -lol

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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by The Yeasty Boyz »

Ok I think I finally get it..... ( sorry for taking so long and hopefully this is the last iteration.) Thank you OVZ and Zapata for you help. I apologize for not understanding this quicker.

So 240 vac has 3 wires, two hot one ground. 240vac US does not need a neutral because the hots are out of phase (+120v and -120v) with each other and take turns returning current leaving the ground wire to go to earth while touching anything metal that could go live should something screw up.

The problem with how I wired it is that the fan has its own 120v coming it despite the fact that it is not grounded, if shit were to hit the fan, its 120v hot wire could connect the the separate circuits ground and hurt someone.
Oldvine Zin wrote:As zapata said in the previous post - 120/240 volt converters are easy to find
I can eliminate this risk by powering the fan right off the 240 coming in assuming the phone charger is dual voltage (as you said.) or simply find one that is. I have spent the past ten days thinking about this assuming the fan had nothing to do with it and that I somehow wired the SSR/POT/Eelement wrong... pathetic I know... Even still I hope im not 100%

Am i right?
zapata wrote:GFCI protection is necessary IMO
Also Zapata, thank you for the info on GFCI options. I had no idea these existed until you post but I have always wondered why outlets in bathrooms have a reset button on them. Makes sense now.
I rent I would prefer the GFCI to be with the still and not the house. I can find the inline 30a 240v GFCI ones for $150 and the spa panel for $20. Looks like another Home Depo trip for the spa panel. Thank you.
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by emptyglass »

While Salty is on vaca, I'll step in for him

No, flute design has not hit its peak, but the gains from what Olddog gave to where we are now are incremental.

As far as power control goes, all you really need is adjustability. I cant speak for the American standards and compliance to local electrical regulations, but you do need to be able to adjust your power input.
How you go about this is up to you, but you will find you need fine control on your heat input.

You'll need to be able to balance how much heat you throw at it with the condensers ability to knock the vapour down. This will be a juggle that you will find yourself spending some time doing. But after you get it, you will have fun.

Good work on the build, its looking a treat.
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by zapata »

The Yeasty Boyz wrote: So 240 vac has 3 wires, two hot one ground. 240vac US does not need a neutral because the hots are out of phase (+120v and -120v) with each other and take turns returning current leaving the ground wire to go to earth while touching anything metal that could go live should something screw up.
Yup. But just to be thorough, US 240V is found in both 3 wire and 4 wire (with dedicated neutrals and ground). Typically stove outlets and newer drier outlets are 4 wire. I think the 4 wire system was deemed safer especially in a case where you are splitting off a 120 load. Like your fan, or say a lightbulb in an oven.
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by Oldvine Zin »

zapata wrote:I think the 4 wire system was deemed safer especially in a case where you are splitting off a 120 load. Like your fan, or say a lightbulb in an oven.
So true - I knew better but still wired a 120 volt fan between a hot leg and ground - just being lazy - when the fan bit the shits so did my eye balls when I touched the column

Be safe
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by The Yeasty Boyz »

@rametmensch. I have now done the same and it works just fine. I really don't see any need of installing any instrumentation to view the amperage or voltage. It seems for whiskey I really only need to run the heat on full and around 65% power. I indexed this mark for reference.

I have my first rum ferment finishing up so I'm gonna have to learn a new power and reflux setting to get the flavor and ABV just right. So ya... Looks like I'll have two settings marked down.

@emptyglass I'm happy to hear you think there is more progress to be made and I believe any modifications to ODs design would be minor. Also huge props to you for purchasing the rights from OD! Good man. :clap:
I am certainly learning the valence of power and reflux. I feel I get it more dialed in each run. I expect getting the rum to run perfectly will take a few laps but I'm excited.


As for the 240... I do wish I had 4 wires coming in because I have read hat it is safer to have a designated neutral I'm stuck with the three for now so I'll just wire the fan accordingly and get the spa GFCI panel up and running.
Thanks for all the clarification.

So far I have ran 7 washes through it and I absolutely love the full flavor, heads/tails compression, speed of run in general and control. Flutes are amazing. OD is my hero.
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Re: 3" Flute Build

Post by Dima »

When you use one of phases with ground to make 120 just remeber if that devices catches fire you will not be protected very well, t will catch fire before tripping the breaker.
Some people hook up their washing machines to one phase of dryer plug, not very good idea.
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