4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:09 pm

Any thoughts on this from the experienced crew among you?

Re-plumb the rigid lines for the botanical basket in place and always leave it in the loop. I kind of like this option as it keeps me at the lower overall
height, keeps me with rigid plumbing for some structure, and keeps me at only one plumbing arrangement for simplicity.

Is this a fine idea, or is there some flaw in leaving an empty botanical section in line in my still all the time. I'm mostly interested in the dirtier spirits (rum 'n whiskey), and least interested in gin (for the moment), so I don't think it will get too much action.

I was also thinking I might add in an object (like a closed sphere, or better yet a 2" cylinder down the center of it) inside the botanical basket when it's not in use, so that the effective cross sectional area remains constant and avoids the sudden expansion (turbulent slow down) and then re-contraction (acceleration) of the vapor path.

Thinking to re-work the plumbing lines to support this configuration this weekend, so any quick advice is appreciated.

Cheers!
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:13 pm

DetroitDIY wrote:Hi Cede,
Picked mine up through McMaster-Carr, but I expect Grainger may have them as well. Lot's of diameter and thickness options... just a bit pricey. Here's the link: https://www.mcmaster.com/#8476k161/=1623nh0
2.25" diameter x 0.125" thick is was I'm using.

I was not referring to the glass by itself but to the copper trap adapter or whatever is the name of this part that supports the glass.
The largest I can find is 1.5".

That said, I can't help you with the gin basket, but I'm following as I think I might be in the same situation in the next few months as I'll begin my build too :)
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby Yummyrum » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:43 am

That still is going to look amazing and rigid cooling lines would top it off nice . :thumbup: I wanted rigid cooling lines on mine too after seeing them on a lot of builds ...... however I ended up with the stainless steal braided flexible lines because I am always trying new things and borrowing the PC for the pot still head etc .

If hieghts no issue I would leave the basket section in place and fill it with multiple parallel lengths of say 1/2" pipe . It will act as a catalyzer . You will find a Catalyzer section above the RC in most commercial stills .
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:31 am

cede wrote:I was not referring to the glass by itself but to the copper trap adapter or whatever is the name of this part that supports the glass.
The largest I can find is 1.5".


Got it Cede. You're the second one to ask me about these recently. Here's what I shared with the last member...

The part is a 'DWV, 2" Sweat Trap Adapter, C x Slip', made by Cello, a Canadian company. The page from their catalog is shown below. I used the WDSJ-32. When I contacted Cello, they wouldn't sell direct, but they gave me a list of distributors of their products in my state whom I called to find out who could get me these parts. I ended tracking them down in a town not too far from me and had them ship me a 10 ct. box which ran me $161.

Each "piece" has 3 parts, the Cu male part with the threads which I sanded to the radius of my 4" tube for soldering, the Br female part that will trap your sight glass against the male part, and a rubber gasket which I threw out. If you google this part, you will see different images that are a bit different than what was included for me.

Yummyrum - thanks for the feedback. I'm not familiar with a catalyzer, but I'll be looking it up shortly.
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Cello Catalog.jpg
Cello Catalog Excerpt (found on-line)
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:42 am

By the way Cede, if you do get these, then the lens info I gave you is valuable as those fit perfectly inside of these sight glasses. Here's the info again, and a source for natural cork if you go that way...

2.25" x 0.125" Borosilicate glass disks: https://www.mcmaster.com/#8476k161/=1623nh0

4" x 6" Natural Sheet Cork for the seals: http://www.ebay.com/itm/120896823721
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby Big Stogie » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:54 am

That’s some beautiful work, love to see it. I sent you a PM
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:52 am

Thanks a lot DetroitDIY ! :)
Made in Canada, I live in Canada and not able to come across that !
I will check with them where I could grab some.

About catalyser, I guess he is talking about the copper catalysis of the sulphurs and others in the spirit.
http://whiskyscience.blogspot.ca/2014/10/copper.html

Thanks a lot.
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby zapata » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:56 pm

This is looking great!
One thing I'll mention on the packed column, not from experience mind you as I don't have a big column. Anyway, it always seemed to me that 4" is bigger than needed for the packed section on top of a flute. Packed columns and plated columns have different factors going dictating their diameter. For plates it's more a matter of geometry of the plates, but that doesn't really matter for the packed column above it. If you start from scratch and design a packed column to be fed with what comes out the top of a 4" flute, I think you'd probably find a 3" column more suitable. It should handle the power input, vapor speed etc, and also happens to be a better documented size for spp as well. Just a thought.
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:50 am

DetroitDIY what's the formula you used to draw the holes pattern ?
I got
X= Sqrt[n]*Cos(2*Pi*n*GoldenRatio)
Y= Sqrt[n]*Sin(2*Pi*n*GoldenRatio)

As base but I'd need to refine in for the number of holes I'll be using and the size of the plate
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:56 pm

I did a lot of figuring when I did the triangles, and designing in Adobe Illustrator. When I switched to "Golden Ratio" pattern, I just picked the patter off of the internet. Google "fibonacci sunflower pattern" and you'll find the fastest way to what you're after. I think the bigger key is to get the right open area for your plates. If I recall I targeted about 8%. Lot's of people were going for 3/16 holes but I chose 1/8 diameter. I scaled my Fibonacci arrangement until I got 314 (1/8th inch) holes (less the area dedicated to the downcomer), which was about 8%.

I think I loaded up a screen shot of the pattern I used early in this thread. The resolution is not so bad if you just want to copy it. Check out the posting from March 11, 2017.

All that said, there are other thoughts on perforation hole size and percentage of open area out there. I picked what I thought would be good, but I have yet to ever run it.

Good luck!
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:32 pm

Yes Fibonacci is just a sequence that can lead to the golden ratio :)
I saw your shot pages back.
Well I'll mess with that later, as I do not even have the materials planned for the flute and so many things going on.
Mathematics have always picked my curiosity as the whole universe seems to respond to mathematical formulae up to a point that some analysts believe at over 50% that we are in a simulation, but that's another subject :P

In my notes I have between 8-9% open area and hole size 1.5-2mm, so 1/16 or #50 bit but might be bigger.
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:52 pm

I’m pretty confident (more than 50%) that I’m not in a simulation. Used to love math, then three semesters of calculus kicked my butt :tired: and I learned to enjoy the applied sciences with light math trimmings. OK back to the task at hand…

Last weekend I laid out the system as designed to date to get a feel for the size/height. You can see this in my first image. This is what lead me to re-plumb the water lines and keep the botanical basket in the loop all the time to keep a simpler, lower total height system (as mentioned previously).

I’ve also included a shot of my parrot with the reinforcement added in (to prevent the inlet tube from bending relative to the main parrot tube. Just need some soft, inert, easily permeable material in the bottom to give the alcoholometer a soft landing, and to integrate the jar support shelf.

Made more headway on the botanical basket this afternoon, integrating a pressure relief circuit. First the pipe bender. I bought this to bend 180’s in a number of copper pipes for a different project. I asked the guys at my good local hardware store and they told me I couldn’t do it. Then I found this pipe bender tool on line… a bit pricy, but I had a lot to bend and my little rigged up bender failed miserably… immediate kink. The second image shows a 540 degree wrap I did (albeit with some difficulty). I do love that bender! Thought I may use that for the pressure relief, but ended up adjusting my design. All this is ½” tubing, but I’ve also bent ¾” with ease. It comes with fittings to bend up to 1” pipe. :D
Attachments
Assembly.jpg
Laid Out Assembly
Parrot 2.jpg
DetroitDIY Parrot
Pipe Bending (1).jpg
Pipe Bender
Pipe Bending (3).jpg
540+ Degrees!
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:56 pm

I ended up linking together 3 links that had a 90 degree bend on either end (essentially 3, 180 bends, but I separated the bends on either end of each piece to get a little extra height in the loop). The first image shows the unsoldered loop of the 3 links, connected by two Ts and terminated with two 90s. Next image shows it soldered together with lower 90 going into the lower, 2” Ø section of the botanical basket, and the upper 90 going into the top of the same, lower portion of the botanical basket. This upper 90 then takes another 90 to bend upright, with a little extension, terminated into ¾” elbow that is sheltered from the approaching vector of the distillate vapor. The last view is of the same, as welded lower half from another view.
Attachments
Botanical 2 (1).jpg
Dry Fit Pressure Blow Out Loop
Botanical 2 (2).jpg
Welded Botanical Basket
Botanical 2 (5).jpg
Another View
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:58 pm

The next 5 images show the botanical assembly from a few different angles to give you a good idea of the design. I have yet to add a ball valve on top (for filling) and on bottom (for draining). I’m also planning to incorporate a funnel on the top that is sized just right to hold the amount of water that the blow out loop wants to hold, so that I can fill the funnel to the top with the valve closed, then open it to perfectly fill the water plug without overflowing into the product stream.
Attachments
Botanical 2 (10).jpg
Botanical 2 (11).jpg
Botanical 2 (12).jpg
Botanical 2 (14).jpg
Botanical 2 (13).jpg
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:46 pm

Nice ;) Keep going !
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