Started a new 4" shotgun/coil/leibeig build the other day.

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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spyked
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Started a new 4" shotgun/coil/leibeig build the other day.

Post by spyked »

A Frankenstein of sorts. I had an older 2" boka still that I had built several years ago (first build) which worked fantastic (94% consistently) until it was lent to a friend. It was abused and modified over the course of 4 years to the point it no longer worked as well as it had before. With a newly acquired set of fabrication skills looking me in the face, I dusted off the remnants and decided to attempt a cobbled design. Obtaining some sections of 4" M-type copper tube from the local scrap yard and armed with a machine shop, forge and tig welder and a little fire. I began the journey..

Not wanting to wait or pay for the connectors necessary for my design I decided that I would fabricate most of my connectors with copper sheet and leftover parts from my scrap bucket.

This means I would weld/braze and solder the copper as necessary. In the lathe I would spin cones and end caps.

I tentatively understand that with increasing your column to a 4" diameter, the largest issue becomes being able to knock down the massive amounts of heat/vapor that will be traveling. So I am throwing all I have at it. The cooling area will be served by a 4" x 12" inch shotgun condenser with (10) 1/2" tubes and two 3/4" water input/output "fingers." The reason for the fingers is that I am going to drop my original 2" 1/4" double helix 3/8" cold finger condeser through the center of the shotgun assembly.... for whatever benefits it may lend. :D I will also have a vapor control output below this with a 3/4" - 1/2" jacketed leibeig condenser controlled with a 2" tee to a 1" ball valve for drawing off the hearts.

So... On with pictures...

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Re: Started a new 4

Post by googe »

bit confused at what your building mate lol. is it a vm?. You dont need massive amounts of cooling for 4", i dephlag 6 inches long with 5 3/4 inner tubes works well enough. havinga valve on the output is a bad idea too, boom!. good luck with the build, looks like yuouve got all the gear :thumbup:
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zapata
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Re: Started a new 4

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I'm seeing a crossflow/thors hammer style horizontal reflux condenser with space for an additional vertical coil, over a 2" VM takeoff. All sitting on a (relatively) short 4" column. Is that right?

Not a design I'd go with, but it's unique. Don't want to poop on your parade with theoretical critiques, so I'll just grab some popcorn and watch.
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Oldvine Zin
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Re: Started a new 4

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zapata wrote: Not a design I'd go with, but it's unique. Don't want to poop on your parade with theoretical critiques, so I'll just grab some popcorn and watch.
Same here - but I have to add that vintage Bridgeport is a beauty :D

good luck
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Re: Started a new 4

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So all you handy shop guys can laugh at me....what exactly IS that bridgeport thingY? It looks like to me it's a couple vices, drill presses, a stand mixer, lots of levers and knobs, and a lathe all in one. Just kidding, I only have the vaguest idea what a lathe looks like. :lol: Whatever it is, it looks like one of those machines that one of those guys that can make anything would have. When I grow up I wanna be one of those guys... So...what's it called?
spyked
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Re: Started a new 4

Post by spyked »

maybe its overkill. but its been modeled.
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Oldvine Zin
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Re: Started a new 4

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zapata wrote:So all you handy shop guys can laugh at me....what exactly IS that bridgeport thingY? It looks like to me it's a couple vices, drill presses, a stand mixer, lots of levers and knobs, and a lathe all in one. Just kidding, I only have the vaguest idea what a lathe looks like. :lol: Whatever it is, it looks like one of those machines that one of those guys that can make anything would have. When I grow up I wanna be one of those guys... So...what's it called?
Most of the above :D it's called a milling machine, think of it like a precision drill press that you can do side cutting with. A lathe is a whole nother animal

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Re: Started a new 4

Post by Oldvine Zin »

spyked wrote:maybe its overkill. but its been modeled.
Can't wait to hear she works!!


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Re: Started a new 4" shotgun/coil/leibeig build the other da

Post by Kegg_jam »

spyked wrote:maybe its overkill. but its been modeled.
Oh! I get it now. Nice rendering.
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Re: Started a new 4

Post by spyked »

Hah! Sorry for the slow updates, but with parenting, full time job and this project eating into every spare hour I can squeeze in a day... blogging my days seems tedious and redundant. lol
Oldvine Zin wrote:
zapata wrote: Not a design I'd go with, but it's unique. Don't want to poop on your parade with theoretical critiques, so I'll just grab some popcorn and watch.
Same here - but I have to add that vintage Bridgeport is a beauty :D

good luck
OVZ
Your right, its a Bridgeport milling machine (the small one in the shop,) one of my favorite tools in the shop, I work for a metal fabrication company in CO. The boss is a tool nerd, has a full machine shop, wood working shop, forge area with power hammers etc. and at least 9 different devices to slice metal into various sized pieces...
zapata wrote:So all you handy shop guys can laugh at me....what exactly IS that bridgeport thingY? It looks like to me it's a couple vices, drill presses, a stand mixer, lots of levers and knobs, and a lathe all in one. Just kidding, I only have the vaguest idea what a lathe looks like. :lol: Whatever it is, it looks like one of those machines that one of those guys that can make anything would have. When I grow up I wanna be one of those guys... So...what's it called?
An old machinist told me that a Bridgeport milling machine is the only machine that can make itself... whether or not it's true, I don't even begin to have enough experience to have an opinion on that matter... but, I have no reason to doubt him.

Anyway, been working here for going on 4 years and got a bootstrap education in metal fabrication, from blacksmithing to machining, and welding nearly every metal in nearly every technique.

Feeling guilty that my poor still had lain for so long, I decided that a rebuild was in order....

Alright, I'll spare the history... I'm pretty stoked on this remodel. My 2" boka mod w/vm runs used to take 10 hours, that's too long. I wanna go faster. The plan is to throw tons of heat at it, and tons of cooling. and I'd be happy to have a run lasting half that long with the same 94% I used to get from the ol' still. :thumbup:

Looking at the CAD drawings. starting from the top:

There is a 2" condenser that is being donated from my old still. its a 1/4" tube double helix with a 3/8" cold finger coming down the center of spirals.
Which connects to a homebuilt 4" Tee, notched with a circular saw and TIG welded together.
The horizontal section of 4" tube is a shotgun condensor, with 10 - 1/2" pipes TIG welded to two plates that span 10" face to face with a 1" space on either end of the total 12" width of Tee.
The ends of condenser will be capped with homemade 4" end caps that I've spun on the lathe using leftover sections of 4" pipe, flattened into sheets.
Below the condenser, in the intersection of the 4" Tee area, i will braze in a 2" brass triclamp flange that will reduce down to a 1" brass ball valve, to a 3/4" jacketed 1/2" spiral leibeig condenser (scavanged from the old still also) for VM takeoff.
Below the VM output, I have a vertical section of 4" pipe that I've cut two 15 degree slots (a la bokakob), on opposing sides of the tube. fitted two crescent shaped sheets to form a helix shape inside the tube and a vortex in the vapor stream, to (hopefully) increase efficiency and push the vapor into contact with a larger area of the Horz. shotgun condenser.
Below the vortex is going to be a 4" tri-clamp connection that will connect to a 24" section of 4" pipe.
At the top of this connection will be an upside down 4" to 2" reducer with a section of 2" pipe inside sitting 1/8" below top of reducer, making a conical reservoir which will collect distillate. Distillate will overflow the reservoir and fall into column, creating reflux back into boiler. A conical roof will attach above 2" tube to direct condensate from condensor above into reservoir.
A tube with a needle valve is connected to the bottom of this conical reservoir for the liquid management output portion of the still.
Under the condensate reservoir is probably the best place for a thermometer port, pointed down, to record the column vapor temp in the system.
The remainder of tube would be stuffed with copper scrubbers to increase surface area for condensate.
on the bottom there will be another 4" tri-clamp connection that will connect to a stainless keg with a 4" flange welded on.
The kegs are heated with propane burner, and the cooling is to be a trash can full of water and a pump to push it through all 3 condensers and recirculating back.

So, advice and theoretical critiques are well appreciated, as well as luck. I'm going down a rabbit hole here, not entirely sure where I'll end up. It is sure to be fun, in any case. :egeek:
zapata
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Re: Started a new 4

Post by zapata »

Well since you are asking for critique, in no particular order...
You're going to need a larger reservoir than a trashcan, or active cooling on it somehow like a radiator, cooling tower, swamp cooler, something. Almost every btu that you put into your still will be put into your coolant.

I think with just 24" tall column you'll fall a bit short of your desired 94%

You're going to have pooling on top of that VM valve. At least initially it'll have a puddle on top of it that will gush out. Not sure if it'll be a problem once you are taking off though. But it will catch another puddle for sure if you need to close the VM to restablize. The initial puddle will eliminate one of the advantages of the LM/VM combo which is keeping fores and heads completely out of the VM condenser. As soon as you open the VM, out come fores and heads, even if you carefully bled them out of the LM side.

You might have trouble adjusting the reflux rate, this one is pure theoretical. But Almost all VM valves are in the horizontal portion, because once you get to the vertical section other factors come into play like gravity and density. Not to mention the way most VM valves work is the reflux ratio is set by the area of the VM takeoff vs. the other path/s available to the vapor. With your VM takeoff right at your crossflow condenser, the area of the other paths looks huge. I don't really know but looks like to me even with a wide open VM valve, you'll see a very slow takeoff. The complex geometry there means I don't even know how to calculate it, but a SWAG is you're fastest takeoff will be 12:1.

BUT, the crossflow condenser tubes are right in front of that VM takeoff. I can't even begin to guess what effect that will have, but my intuition is it isn't ideal. It may well work just fine. But if it does, I'm damned if I'd be able to understand why!

If I were building it, I'd put a nice fun little sight glass to plug the current VM takeoff. I'd put a new VM takeoff down lower, with the valve on the horizontal as close to the column as you can get it. And I'd add at least another 2' of column.

Also, I think you're going to have to load your boiler with low wines, the higher the abv the better (or at least as strong as you feel is safe). Others have mentioned needing more liquid in the column than is in the keg to begin with. A 12 gallon 10% wash only has 1.2 gallon of total etoh in it after all.

Your fabrication skills are far beyond mine and you do beautiful work. Those are just some critiques that pop into my mind. But I do wish you luck, that thing is going to be a beast, you might need a little luck to tame it.
spyked
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Re: Started a new 4" shotgun/coil/leibeig build the other da

Post by spyked »

I like the idea of a sight glass there instead of a VM takeoff. I think I'll get some coming. Where do you think the VM should go? Below the LM reservoir? Above?

I did consider the possibility of liquid pooling in the VM takeoff and had planned to braze my 2" flange with a 10 degree upward slant to allow liquid to fall back into column. The other 2" flange will braze directly to the 1" brass ball valve and a elbow on the other side of valve will go to leibeig. The condenser will slant away from column to allow product collection on a side table. With the triclamp connection it will allow for easy cleaning and storage.

I took some photos of the dry fit. Slant plates are in. Condensers fit. Going to start on the next section.

I could get another section of 4" pipe if need be. It actually will stand 3' and change to the top of the condenser. Does the entire column need to be packed with copper scrubbers?

As far as boilers go, I have two SS kegs which I'm planning on doing both fermenting and distilling in. Which, in two low wine runs I could have the theoretical 2.4 gal of ethanol to run. Is there any reason I couldn't use this to make low wines?
zapata
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Re: Started a new 4" shotgun/coil/leibeig build the other da

Post by zapata »

spyked wrote: Where do you think the VM should go? Below the LM reservoir? Above?
Technically it can be anywhere, above/below/even right beside. I have mine below my LM, but thats for 2 reasons that don't fit with your design. 1. I run the liquid reflex down through an external pipe at the VM take off, this keeps the VM takeoff dry so there is no chance of liquid droplets being being taken off with the vapor. And 2. I have a short column between the LM and VM that works as a bit of a trap for heads while taking off VM hearts. Both of these details are probably only relevant for the most pure neutrals, and may be overkill for your still.
I could get another section of 4" pipe if need be. It actually will stand 3' and change to the top of the condenser. Does the entire column need to be packed with copper scrubbers?
You pack as much of the column height as you want. The height of the packed section will determine purity at the top. Unpacked column height is worthless in terms of increasing abv. Roughly speaking doubling the height of the packed section will double the number of redistillations happening. But if you don't know, the initial few redistillations increase the abv considerably, as the proof gets higher though each redistillations raises it a little less than the last. It's up to you to decide how good is good enough lest you end up with a 8 foot tall column that is probably outside your goals.

Another thought I had though after suggesting you add more column was that 4" column holds a lot of alcohol both in vapor and in liquid holdup. At some point with adding height you are making the "not enough alcohol to run it" problem worse. Maybe try it as designed and see from there?
. Is there any reason I couldn't use this to make low wines?
It'll strip just fine. With no packing and the LM wide open it should work like a 4" pot still. Or just leave the packing in and LM wide open you'llprobably get slightly higher abv just as fast. Or leave the packing in and see what the max takeoff is with the VM open, it'll be slower but might offer enough purity to make it worth the time to make cuts on the stripping run too. But most definitely you can find a way to use it for stripping that suits.
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