Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Samohon »

rad14701 wrote:I, for one, want to commend every one of the members here who has devoted the time, money, and effort into forwarding the use of plated columns on a small scale for home distillation... This could very well be a defining point in the future and perhaps decriminalization of home distillation... I say this because it proves that this hobby is taken seriously by at least a portion of those participating and that both safety and advancement are active components of our overall interests in practice of the craft/hobby... I'll go out on a limb and state that this level of interest and advancement is simply not taking place anywhere else...
+1) here here Rad, I agree...
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by rad14701 »

The Baker wrote:This is all very interesting.
I will take you up on one point though, in your comparison.

Perhaps you could have said, liquid (in a dish-like tray) has a far better HETP value than DROPLETS clinging to any structured packing...

Otherwise in comparing a basket of apples with a carton of oranges, you are comparing the fruit in the first, with the container in the second.
You are correct.. Under further scrutiny my statement was definitely a bit ambiguous... Good catch...
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by squidd »

Barney Fife wrote:

.....Another observation: while looking-over my collected jars, it struck me how distinctly oily/cloudy the tails jars are, compared to the tails jars from past pot still strip runs. Same thing I was seeing with the simple slant plate column! It clearly shows that the pot still strips smear the tails in with the hearts, so much so that the true tails aren't that 'dirty" at all. But with a decent column, the hearts remain much cleaner, leaving the tails much dirtier. My quandary is that I've long held to the idea that much of rum's sweetness resided in the tails, yet here I see, first hand and unquestionably, more sweetness in the hearts, with much less, if any, smearing of the tails. It's nice to know that my setup does this, as this has been my goal forever! But now I want/need to understand why it is so.
.....
Barney,

Is there some connection here with Pugi's rum oils ?

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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by The Baker »

rad14701 wrote:
The Baker wrote:This is all very interesting.
I will take you up on one point though, in your comparison.

Perhaps you could have said, liquid (in a dish-like tray) has a far better HETP value than DROPLETS clinging to any structured packing...

Otherwise in comparing a basket of apples with a carton of oranges, you are comparing the fruit in the first, with the container in the second.
You are correct.. Under further scrutiny my statement was definitely a bit ambiguous... Good catch...
Well thinking about it that way helped me to understand it better so it may help others too.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by LWTCS »

squidd wrote:Barney Fife wrote:


.....Another observation: while looking-over my collected jars, it struck me how distinctly oily/cloudy the tails jars are, compared to the tails jars from past pot still strip runs. Same thing I was seeing with the simple slant plate column! It clearly shows that the pot still strips smear the tails in with the hearts, so much so that the true tails aren't that 'dirty" at all. But with a decent column, the hearts remain much cleaner, leaving the tails much dirtier. My quandary is that I've long held to the idea that much of rum's sweetness resided in the tails, yet here I see, first hand and unquestionably, more sweetness in the hearts, with much less, if any, smearing of the tails. It's nice to know that my setup does this, as this has been my goal forever! But now I want/need to understand why it is so.
.....



Barney,

Is there some connection here with Pugi's rum oils ?
I keep thinking about the process of caremalizing onions or carrots or any thing that sweetens up with an adaquately applied bit of heat.
Its the process of,,,,,,forced esterfication (or the like),,,,no?

Its like a good slow cooked sauce,,,,,,,,with out the really slow part.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Bagasso »

LWTCS wrote:I keep thinking about the process of caremalizing onions or carrots or any thing that sweetens up with an adaquately applied bit of heat.
Its the process of,,,,,,forced esterfication (or the like),,,,no?

Its like a good slow cooked sauce,,,,,,,,with out the really slow part.
Caramelization and esterification are different. Caramelization is the pyrolisis of sugars and esterification is the formation of esters from oxoacids and alcohols or phenols.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by LWTCS »

Yeah but,,,,,,I wanna caremalize my esters........

Doesn't sound fair to me:(
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Bagasso »

That would be more like de-esterification. That is what we are doing when we use bicarb in our low wines. The thing is that caramelization gives more flavors and de-esterification removes flavors, from different parts of the wash of course.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by LWTCS »

Well,,,,,,,,stew. Can we stew some esters??
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Bagasso »

Sure you can stew your esters. That would be transesterification which is when one ester is converted into another by way of heat in the presence of alcohol and an acid.

This is how polyesters are made so if you do this you can change your name to "Leisure Suit Larry".
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by LWTCS »

Haha thats hilarious.
Leisure Suit Rum :lol:

Seriously though.....Don't go away. Help us talk about whats going on here.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Barney Fife »

Update:

I ran a second, identical wash last night, without the bubble plate and column, and with just the dephlegmator and lyne arm(I have about 10" of 2" dia. copper above the dephleg, same as I run with the column. Basically, I ran a 20" long(give or take) pot still lyne arm of which 12" of it is cooled and controlled(IE: the dephleg). By playing with the water flow, I was able to pull hearts at 78% ABV, though it was a slow pace... Backing off on the water, I was able to get a decent flow(all at 4500 watts) at 70-73% ABV. The heads compressed decently, and the hearts were good. Real good. Better than on any single run with any pot still. Not as good as with the column though, but damned close! Again, I ran out of cooling water)too hot) and had to shut 'er down when I got to the tails, so I ran those today. One details tells it all. The tails, collected wide open, no water in the dephleg, weren't as "dirty' as the tails were with the column. That can mean only one thing; some of the heavier oils and what not that make up the tails, did smear into the hearts.

So, I will say it's a BIG improvement over a simple pot still, and as easy as it is to build a dephleg(it's just a liebig...), it's a no brainer for pot stillers to add to their setups. But it also shows that the bubble plate did indeed clean up the hearts and ADD flavor, at the same time.

Cool!
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by aqua vitae »

Sounds like you guys are reinventing the ol' labmaster:
ImageImage
That was what we used in my youth for vodka before we knew about compound stills (modern reflux stills). Needed carbon filtering.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by beelah »

Hey Barney, can you post some pictures of your delphag, and poststill setup. I am about to start a new build and was going to go the traditional pot still, with leibeg arm rather than a worm, but after reading this string, I am thinking of going thre route you did, but without the bubble plates at this time.

I plan to build on 2" pipe with quick flange to stainless keg. It would be good to see a visual of your setup before I start to cut and solder.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by aqua vitae »

I don't mean when you are using the plate column, but with a dephlegmator with no column underneath as described in these posts:
Barney Fife wrote:Would be nice to see what comes out of a regular pot still with a dephlegmator (no plates or packing).
Barney Fife wrote:I ran a second, identical wash last night, without the bubble plate and column, and with just the dephlegmator and lyne arm(I have about 10" of 2" dia. copper above the dephleg, same as I run with the column. Basically, I ran a 20" long(give or take) pot still lyne arm of which 12" of it is cooled and controlled(IE: the dephleg). By playing with the water flow, I was able to pull hearts at 78% ABV, though it was a slow pace... Backing off on the water, I was able to get a decent flow(all at 4500 watts) at 70-73% ABV.
This is pretty much a labmaster setup.
From bottom to top: Boiler, no (or very little column), a dephlegmator (can be compared with the throughpipes), lyne arm and finally product condenser.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Prairiepiss »

Ok what about this one that everyone seams to say doesn't work as well as other stills? The way I see it! Correct me if I am wrong here as I am a noobe! This still is just a 2 inch column with a Dephlagmator at the top. If you left out the packing it would be a pot still with a Dephlagmator at the top? With packing left in it would be similar to a plated column but using structured packing instead of plates?? Am I wrong and if so please explain?????
It is a Mile Hi still just so everyone knows.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by aqua vitae »

As far as I understand I would say you're spot on there PP.
Bubble caps is said to carry over more flavour though when the ethanol bubbles through the liquid.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by LWTCS »

aqua vitae wrote:This is pretty much a labmaster setup.
Except it is not.

Thru tubes on your "lab master" are way too low on the riser. Potentially condensing compounds too early and prematurely reintroducing back to the bulk liquid.

Likely bad separation.

Swut give CMs the bad reputation for being hard to drive.

Also,,,that thing prolly could not get any where near 100% reflux mode.

It is not even close.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by LWTCS »

Thats a much better design than the lab bastard PP.

And with some packing it likely stays plenty stable for a nice light rum. Bet Kiwi and a few others have render'd some good light rum with a rig like that.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Prairiepiss »

Before I found this site I was hell bent in buying or making one of these. Then I started reading all the posts here saying this still was not as good as one could be made. So I decided to make a modular still that I could change out the heads from this style of CM to a LM and a Pot. Then I started reading all these plated column / flute build threads and I was very confused! All I could see was this still being built with plates replacing the packing. But yet everyone was saying this still and other CM type stills were to be not the acceptable build. As a noobe this can be very irritating when trying to research what to build. Do this Do that but don't do it like this do it like that. :? I made up my own mind upon reading as much of this site as I can. And taking this info as a unbiased perspective! It mite not be what everyone else thinks. But nothing would ever change unless someone thinks outside the box.
aqua vitae wrote:As far as I understand I would say you're spot on there PP.
Bubble caps is said to carry over more flavor though when the ethanol bubbles through the liquid.
aqua vitae that is why I am building a plated column that I can remove or add plates from it if I want to. It seams the most logical build going at this time. In my noobe opinion.

My other opinion is the Dephlagmator is not what makes a still. What makes a still is a conglomeration of every thing in that particular still and what its built for. Everyone's tastes are different. You just have to find the right tool to make what YOU want to make. A Dephlagmator may improve a pot still but then it is no longer a pot still.

Sorry rambling and I haven't even had a drink yet!! :roll:
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by LWTCS »

Prairiepiss wrote:You just have to find the right tool to make what YOU want to make. A Dephlagmator may improve a pot still but then it is no longer a pot still.
toe-may-toe,,,,,,toh-mah-toe.... Poe-tay-toe,,,,,poh-toh-toe.

It is hard to figgure out. And there are so many points of view. Thats why so may gents say "slow down". Waiting and researching can help one make better decisions.
I couldn't wait......I had to put solder to copper. I had fun

I put unions on all my peices and can swap,add, eliminate any given peice to find out for myself what I like and what the affects are from any given peice.

Got plenty of guidence but I was gonna establish my own point of view.......Not done yet,,,at all.
Really long way to go.


Was that pic a pic of your still? That rig was likely being compared to an LM or VM as a nuetral maker. If it was then that CM is not the best choice,,,,,,,,,,,yet again.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Prairiepiss »

LWTCS wrote:It is hard to figgure out. And there are so many points of view. Thats why so may gents say "slow down". Waiting and researching can help one make better decisions.
I couldn't wait......I had to put solder to copper. I had fun
Fortunately Time and money restraints have slowed me way down. Giving me time to research a lot more than I would normally. But it is really hard to do on this forum. If you don't know anything to begin with.
LWTCS wrote:Was that pic a pic of your still? That rig was likely being compared to an LM or VM as a nuetral maker. If it was then that CM is not the best choice,,,,,,,,,,,yet again.
No I just pulled it off their site. I was doing the comparing I knew what it was. I was just going by what others posted. I try not to start any unnecessary threads by asking to many questions. And getting the standard answer. Read Read Read and Read some more. I am still in the process of building mine. It keeps changing directions the more I read. But it has come to an abrupt stop at a plated column. I still have pieces that I built that will latter be used for experimenting. But for now I have a plan. I just need time and a little more money to execute it. Until then I have to keep drinking this store bought stuff and reading more and more and more. As far as it not being the best choice. Again that could only be determined by the person making the choice. But they need to make that choice by looking at facts with an unbiased opinion!
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by LWTCS »

What will be your drink of choice?
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Prairiepiss »

That will depend on what I make and like. But my drink of choice now is Bourbon. But I like Rum, Vodka, and Schnapps too. So until I make some of my own I can't tell you what my drink of choice will be. I can tell you I will be experimenting with everything until I find what I like. If that means I have to build a different still latter to make something I like so be it! Or if I make a Rum that I just fall in love with. Then I will become a Rum drinker.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by LWTCS »

A basic potstill has a pretty impressive pedigree.

Bit more work to make vodka,,,,,,but a really good all round tool for not any real amount of money.

Swut I would do.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by WalkingWolf »

PrairieP -- You may have the bits and pieces there that you can fashion together a working unit. IMO, a simple potstill is one of the best rigs to learn how to distill. It'll teach you everything you need to know if you're willing to listen to the still. I'm still running the same basic design of the first still I ran. Least, if we could get you up and running we can get you off of "store-bought" and enjoying your own makins. Using the recipes in Tried and True you can make drinkable goods from the very first batch -- after proper cleaning runs have been performed :oops: .

Shed a little light on what materials you've gathered up and I bet we'll come up with something

good luck
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Prairiepiss »

I appreciate the want to help. I have enough materials to build a pot still. I'm just not interested in one right now. Like I said I am building a plated column. I'm just taking my time. And I'm ok with that. I don't have to have homemade right now. And its not all for the drink for me either. I like to build things. And I am very hard on myself about the things I build. Little bit of a perfectionist. My wife would say a lot bit! But I tend to rush things and it makes things worse for me. So this project I am taking my sweet time. 8)

I really didn't want to hijack this thread. I was just wanting to point out the similaritys of the mile hi still to the Dephlegmator stills. And try to get people thinking these are CM stills. That which are kinda frowned upon around here. When called a CM.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Barney Fife »

Prairiepiss, please start a new thread if you want help designing a still for your needs. I'd like this one to remian short and readable, and to the point. Thanks.

No, this wasn't a reinvention of the labmaster. Thru-tubes create reflux, which drips down the middle of the column. As do all reflux columns. The dephleg as I used it in "pot still mode" caused the reflux to run down the sides of the column. Difference here is that the reflux isn't instantly re-distilled, but rather returns to the liquid pool(the boiler). So, from the boiler, vapor enters a 1-1/2" x 12" tube(the dephleg), then whatever i allow, travels another 10 or so inches up a 2" tube, before reversing and heading down the liebig.

My setup had the dephleg right at the base, with a lyne arm above it, then to the liebig, opposite of the other SS column someone showed here, and that will make a difference. I think what I created was a short pot still lyne arm that acts like a very long lyne arm(think, Scottish columns; think, Glenmorangie's lyne arms, and yes, I love me some Glenmoramgie!), with the added bonus of being able to simply and almost instantly adjust the lyne arm's "length"(IE: more coolant flow, it will act like a longer arm, less flow, shorter arm, no flow, like there's nothing there(add a drain cock to the dephleg, by the way; highly recommended, since there's no point in heating up the quart or two of water in the dephleg when you reach the tails and want to let 'er rip). Glenmorangie's very long lyne arms(the longest in Scotland) are said to produce the highest ABV and (arguably)cleanest "raw"Scotch(before barreling). They use long arms to induce some reflux, and again here, the returned reflux doesn't drip down the center to be re-distilled by countless plates and mesh, but rather, back to the boiler they go.

Anywho, I offered up my findings. Take 'em or leave 'em, but don't argue with the result until you've run similar setups back to back. As i said, i didn't start this thread to start an argument or get into any pissing matches. I want to share my thoughts based on my -actual- experience and findings as I go along, and invite others to do the same. I have years of stillin' under me, and this simple thing beat anything my old pot still did(in fact, the "lyne arm" above the dephleg is indeed my former pot still lyne arm ;) ). I may prefer this setup for whiskeys when I get back to making some, but for rums, I preferred the results I achieved with my single bubble plate column, with this dephleg/lyne arm above it. Some of you pot stillers that aren't inclined to build, or can't afford, flutes and other complex columns(and I'm one of you, which is why i only have the one bubble plate so far), adding a short, in-line liebig/dephleg beneath your existing lyne arm should yield you very similar results as I saw here. It's dead simple to build, and run(and damn, it kinda looks cool, too).

I'll see if i can't photograph it in a bit. It's all off the boiler and taken apart already, but I'll mock it up for y'all.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by Bagasso »

Prairiepiss wrote:I was just wanting to point out the similaritys of the mile hi still to the Dephlegmator stills. And try to get people thinking these are CM stills. That which are kinda frowned upon around here. When called a CM.
Hey that's what I said on page 2. I guess that the difference is that when you run it to get vodka it lets too much flavor through, of course the whiskey, scotch, rum, etc. makers see this as a good things. The problem is that it has been said far too often (in the craft as well as this site) that the tails are the flavor. For example from the parent site:
However, it are the congeners that impart the flavour of the grain or fruit. And most of these come from the 'tails'. As Ian Smiley puts it, the tails 'bleed' into the middle cut. While the reflux still can produce mind-stomping purity, the pot still must be run with a sense of art.
I guess this (plate and/or dephleg) gives you the ability to seperate the actual tails from the wanted flavor compounds.

One thing that I would like to point out to the vodka/neutral makers is that this may be a good thing for us. The reason I say this is because another thing that often gets said here is if you learn to make cuts you don't need carbon. Also that carbon gives a false sense of security because carbon only strips flavor and doesn't really do anything to the fusels.

So if these stills are leaving the fusels in the pot then the hearts from one of these runs should come out pretty clean once run through carbon.
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Re: Dephlegmator and bubble plate column observations.

Post by aqua vitae »

LWTCS wrote:
aqua vitae wrote:This is pretty much a labmaster setup.
Except it is not.

Thru tubes on your "lab master" are way too low on the riser. Potentially condensing compounds too early and prematurely reintroducing back to the bulk liquid.

Likely bad separation.
Yes I know that. That is why we stop using them years ago.
But this is very similar to Barney Fife's build with pot still and dephlegmator and that was my point:
Barney Fife wrote:The dephleg as I used it in "pot still mode" caused the reflux to run down the sides of the column. ... the reflux isn't instantly re-distilled, but rather returns to the liquid pool(the boiler)
LWTCS wrote: Also,,,that thing prolly could not get any where near 100% reflux mode.
No and even if it could there is no particular reason to do that as there is no packing below the condenser so everything returns to boiler anyway and the process have to restart from scratch. So the throughpipes works pretty much as a dephlegmator right on top of a boiler just as Barney Fife's setup, which was my point.
Barney Fife wrote: No, this wasn't a reinvention of the labmaster. Thru-tubes create reflux, which drips down the middle of the column. As do all reflux columns. The dephleg as I used it in "pot still mode" caused the reflux to run down the sides of the column. Difference here is that the reflux isn't instantly re-distilled, but rather returns to the liquid pool(the boiler).
Yes, a properly built reflux column does that.
A labmaster doesn't, as the throughpipes are right on top of the boiler as your setup. There is no centering collar or anything either so from the throughpipes the reflux will run down the column sides.
So just as in your setup much are instantly redistilled as there is not enough column length and nothing to guide the reflux to the center.

The short column above the throughpipes on the labmaster (usually little longer that a foot or so) doesn't do much difference as it got no condenser on top to create any reflux. The vapours that pass the throughpipes/dephlegmator travels through it as in a lyne arm before it get condensed by the product condenser.

So I still believe that Barney Fife's setup, a pot still with dephlegmator, is pretty much a labmaster.




And another thing:
Bagasso wrote:Also that carbon gives a false sense of security because carbon only strips flavor and doesn't really do anything to the fusels.
I do not agree with you there. Activated carbon have been used to remove fusels for centuries. We used that a lot to clean our bad vodka when using bad stills as the already mentioned labmaster.
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