New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2...

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New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2...

Postby Samohon » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:14 pm

OK Guys, OD has given me the honour of bestowing this upon you... OD and I have been working on designing a flute that can be easier and cheaper to build. We have used a different methodology in trying to achieve this but when plans were laid, even the best laid ones, the trade-off would either be cash or time, but not both. This will take a little longer to build, but will be significantly cheaper. A still like this can be made cheaper, but at a trade-off in the time it takes to build it. Bear in mind, these builds are pushing home distillation into a whole new era, once you have one of these, you wont need to build another one IMO.

It is based on the internal structure OD used on the Stumpy build. Gone are the 3 expensive reducers, one 4" coupler is still required, but there is a simple work-around for this. The top-cap above the vapour chamber and shotgun, can be made from some thin copper sheet as there is no weight put onto the top of this design. The weight of the product output and plumbing is carried by 2 struts, (The vapour Pipe) and the other attached at the top of the Graham condenser. The Graham product condenser can be swapped for a 14" shotgun condenser, and this also will be implemented into the final plans. The drainage system does add to the overall expense of the flute with its SS valves, but a self made copper valve has been designed remembering the theory that liquid, especially distillate, always flows down. As the thread matures, so the bells and whistles can be applied. A thermometer will be installed into the system, although this has not been shown yet. OD has also included a set of laminair fins in the vapour chamber...


The main changes that OD and I have implemented lie within the internal plate tree.

Most of you will remember OD's 2 plate Stumpy build, well it was this method of plate that was used by OD and implemented to great success. OD and I will be building the system you see before you in these graphics and pdf's. It does call for a little more thought to be put into the plates, but as long as the plates circumference is honed to the ID of the 4" pipe, I see no great difficulty in building it. The tree can be slid into place at the correct height for the sight glasses and soldered into place using the sight port, before the sight glass housing is attached. For those wishing to remove the tree, the shotgun can be disconnected from the flute and the tree slid out. An easier method would be to implement a flushing system to the flute that would enable the flute to be rinsed at the turn of a cheap ball valve. The 2" bubble-caps can be made from 2" pipe and a silver soldered top plate, alternatively, you can just use 2" End-Feed end caps.

I am limited to the size of graphics that I can post in this thread for obvious reasons, therefore I intend to display graphics with the current rule in-place and also produce a pdf file to download and view at a higher res. I do not want to use any 3rd party sites to display the graphic as I want to keep all links and images true for the future membership and reference. The pdf's can be downloaded from my own mediafire account that I maintain regularly and viewed off-line.

Heres a PDF on the Internal Upper Bubble-cap and J-Type Trap...

Plate-Tree-and-Drainage.jpg
Image showing the tray disabling feature...
Plate-Tree-and-Drainage.jpg (56.2 KiB) Viewed 8589 times


More information on this build will be posted here over the next few days, detailed plans, part lists and alternative methods for a certain part of the design will also be posted. Thanks must go to Larry, Rad, Kentucky Shinner, Spooky, Condensificator, prdbrissy and many many others who have stepped forward and shared their methods of construction with us. IMO, and going from the results of OD's prototype, the theory is correct. Larry's Humper design was a big factor in coming to a decision on the drainage system...
But it all started with Olddog having a passion to build a scaled down version of a commercial distillation apparatus and share it with HD... Thanks man...

The bridge was built, the road laid and the journey by others, taken...

I will update this thread daily until all OD's modifications are in place...

Let the brainstorming begin....
Last edited by Samohon on Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:45 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby wildrover » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:19 pm

Ahhh... nice work on many points. The first thing that jumps out at me is the ability to disable plates to go from neutral to whiskey. Nice Work! It'll take a little bit to take in all of these changes you guys have come up with.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby olddog » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:33 pm

Design correction, the dephlegmater is dropped into the column from the top, eliminating the need for a coupler. The top plate is connected to the column with a 4"tri-clamp, enabling the dephlegmater to be lifted out from the column giving access to the plate column for plate change or removal, therefore the vapor takeoff tube will not go through the vapor chamber at the head of the column.
013.JPG




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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Mr.Spooky » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:39 pm

soooooo,,,do the valves act as the downcomers too,,, or are downcomers not part of the equasion??
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby olddog » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:42 pm

Mr.Spooky wrote:soooooo,,,do the valves act as the downcomers too,,, or are downcomers not part of the equasion

The downcomers are the weir type , the valves are for dissabling plates, you will be able to dissable any plate combination.


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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Prairiepiss » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:45 pm

So the drain valves just dump it back to the boiler?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby olddog » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:01 pm

Prairiepiss wrote:So the drain valves just dump it back to the boiler?
In the current design , Yes, but if a three way valve is used instead of the two way, you could direct the return back to any plate you wanted if you want total flexibility.



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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby LWTCS » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:07 pm

Or

Send it back down to a Humper Thumper :mrgreen:
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby jimsbrotherjack » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:13 pm

Excited to see the parts list and build plans. I love the Flute and to be able to make it myself is a bonus. It's always been my goal to make the highest quality distillate and as designs get better and better, so will the whiskey/gin/vodka and rum! I love this place! Now if only the US would make it legal for personal use. Thanks everyone for all the great info here.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby olddog » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:21 pm

Hang on in there. The build plans and a few more feature will be released shortly.


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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby squidd » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:33 pm

olddog wrote:
Prairiepiss wrote:So the drain valves just dump it back to the boiler?
In the current design , Yes, but if a three way valve is used instead of the two way, you could direct the return back to any plate you wanted



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OD,

I think that if you add just one more valve between the bottom of your drain pipe and the boiler, you will accomplish that.

Say you want to disable plate #2, and send the reflux to plate #4.
Then close the proposed bottom valve, and open valve #2.

Once the drain pipe has filled to plate 4 level, then open valve #4, and the reflux flows onto plate 4.
Obviously, the valve connections have to be below their respective downcomer tops.

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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Prairiepiss » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:41 pm

So the current setup without 3way valves you would have to disable from the bottom up correct? And why would you want to disable a plate in the middle. Wouldn't it be more fesable to start at the bottom anyway?

Another ? If you open a valve on one plate and drain it what's keeping the vapor from using the wier chanel to the plate above as a path (least resistance) effectively disabling the plate above it to? It looks like in the pic the wier plate is notched at the bottom with the dam on the opposite side. So I assume the top of the wier plate (dam) is taller than the highest notch in the bottom of the next wier plate. So there is a vapor trap and holding fluid on the plate? Or did I miss something?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby olddog » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:43 pm

A three way valve is T shaped, if you connect the upright of the T to the plate drain, (Laying the T on it's side) you will be able to turn off or on any part of the drain system and not have to rely on the main tube filling to that point.


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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby olddog » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:47 pm

Prairiepiss wrote:So I assume the top of the wier plate (dam) is taller than the highest notch in the bottom of the next wier plate. So there is a vapor trap and holding fluid on the plate?

That is correct.


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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby rockchucker22 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:55 pm

After all the bubbleplate bashing here we are........ what a bunch of crap.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Prairiepiss » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:58 pm

The 3way sounds like a better option to me.

But is there an advantage to disable a plate in the middle rather that the bottom?

And I still wonder if it would disable 2 plates by opening one valve?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby olddog » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:00 pm

rockchucker22 wrote:After all the bubbleplate bashing here we are........ what a bunch of crap.

If you bothered to read the thread properly, no one was knocking bubble plates or any plates. I maintained that I was able to make my choices without being told by Rednose which way I should do it.


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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby LWTCS » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:04 pm

rockchucker22 wrote:After all the bubbleplate bashing here we are........ what a bunch of crap.


Never any bubble cap bashing that I can recall Rock......

Only the perf plate bashing....as I recall.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Prairiepiss » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:13 pm

Well would perforated plates work with this new idea? Seams to me they would. Is there a reason you went with a giant bubble cap?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby LWTCS » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:30 pm

My 2c,,,,again :shock:

Prairiepiss wrote:Well would perforated plates work with this new idea? Seams to me they would. Is there a reason you went with a giant bubble cap?


Single bubble cap for ease of construction......
Bubble cap to hold a bit more liquid......more liquid redistilling on the plates may translate to potential flavor.
Middle plates will really start cycling high abv liquid and vapor......D'jew pull 95???? Bet you did.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Samohon » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:48 pm

Thats right L, OD noticed this after he built the 2 plate Stumpy. With only 2 caps working in stumpy he was able to carry more flavour...

Heres the 4" Shotgun with Laminairs added to the Vapour Chamber...
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby rockchucker22 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:11 pm

It just pisses me off after building the first 4" bubbleplate no mention and this is " all new" Larry your humper thumper is the true pioneer. Sorry not wanting to rain on anyone...
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby HookLine » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:19 pm

Nice work, and great drawings. Good drawing is worth 10 pages of thread talk.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby condensificator » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:40 pm

nice stuff guys.

samo, i can't get your pdf's to load.

i'm feeling a bit ripped off with all of the build up. like when my wife tells me she's "gonna give me something special"...then it turns out to be a pint of ice cream...when i had something else in mind...

it's cool, but without seeing more build details, i don't think it is an easier build than the current fl*te path most are taking. i think perf plates are the way to go if one is looking for build simplicity and cost efficiency. they already self-drain, and can be made with simple hand tools, and if you build your trees right (was it RC that had the ones on an allthread rod?), you can just configure them before your run.

i'd like to see what else you guys have cooked up.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Prairiepiss » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:27 am

I'm glad I'm not the only one that felt like that. I've been thinking along the same lines as condensificator. Yes you don't have to buy a 4x2 reducer but all the 2" bubble caps will cost as much. And I'm still not sold on the drain valve system. I already had plans to put a water sprayer in the top for clean out.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Samohon » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:33 am

rockchucker22 wrote:It just pisses me off after building the first 4" bubbleplate no mention and this is " all new" Larry your humper thumper is the true pioneer. Sorry not wanting to rain on anyone...

No problem Rock, Larry's Thumper design was an inspiration on the plate drains and he pioneered the way forward with this design, other stillers from the membership have also been of use. What OD and I have done, is to take most of those ideas and incorporate them into this design, thats how we know this will work, because people like Larry, KS, OD and others, have proven this. All we done was draw it up to put it in one place...
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby LWTCS » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:52 am

I think the valves are gonna really make finding mutiple sweet spots on the fly quite good.
Gonna help the wisky guys land that barrel strenth distillate. As far as I know current designs are rendering abv far too high for that heavier flavor that the old school potstillers prefer.

One of my favorite tricks (I know,,,I always blabber away about this)while fondeling and rubbin my still during a run is to reflux for a lil bit collect fores and heads outta the way,,then run with a lil more speed during a nice center cut out of my hearts section. Soon as my alcometer bumps too high I through her back into reflux and let it wind and load for collecting the remaining

I don't collect a bunch of hearts out of this first part,,,but it makes for some very sweet and within a day or so,,,very buttery white,,,,,mmmmmmmm.

Anyway,, I can see running this new design that way by starting of with some disabled plates for the best part of the heart section,,,,then activating all the plates to bring the remainder of the charge very clean.
Maybe too much valve jockying for some? But I get a big kick out of it.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Samohon » Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:54 am

Thats what I've been hearing from OD L, I'm sure he'll chime in soon... Full flavoured whiskey at barrel strength could be achieved once the sweet spot on the plate disablement system was found. Running a 5 plate still with maximum reflux and all plates working, I believe a descent high proof neutral could also be achieved. I'm going for a 6 plate still with the plate disablement system installed at the rear. A sliding rainmaker shotgun for the dephlegmator and a spiralled 14" shotgun (that should be fun) for the product condenser. Over the last few months I've had a few lessons on silver soldering, I think its doable...

Here are detailed illustrations for the Bubblecap..

The bubblecap can be made or bought, therefore expense leans toward time or money.
I realise that time is money, but only in a working environment, this is a hobby still after all...
This cap, IMO, could be built very easily if expense was an issue...


Heres the Bubble-Cap PDF...
The Bubble-Cap...
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Samohon » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:07 am

Have a look at the spiralled shotgun...
Maybe a bit ambitious for the new builder, but the trick is in getting the former length and diameter just right for rolling, the software has already given me that...
Definitely something I will look at whilst building..

Not disagreeing with you at all OD, making a shotgun condenser is always a challenge, this one would just have an added twist, literally...
Spiralled Shotgun.png
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Heres the PDF...
Spiralled Shotgun PDF...

Next we'll look at the internal plate structure of the still, giving details on its fabrication...
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Postby Usge » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:58 am

Dang...you guys makin ole Usge's head hurt :) (but in a good way)
I need to convert all this metric stuff to inches :P

The plate engagement valve system looks really promising OD. Seen a few different concept attempts at it...but none of them made me feel like it would be something that could be readily built out of available parts/valves — or in the end that it would actually do what its supposed to do. That looks promising.

I'm not quite getting the new dephleg design. I see how it fits "inside" the tube now, but it's mentioned the dephelg is attached via tri-clamp above the top plate and vapor no longer goes up through the top. I'm not quite seeing that (ie., where does the vapor go if not up through the shotgun tubes in the dehleg?). Thanks to all for their sharing the labor of their hard work.
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