New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2...

[Usge]

Don't want to muck up yer thread with my stupid questions...but ....I'm not quite seeing how the downcomers work. Is there a gap between the fold in the plate and the downcomer where the distillate runs down between them? Or does the distillate run down the backside of the weir downcomer? Sorry if that's an obvious question. Also, you indicate the bottom of the downcomers should be a frown not a smile..etc. Is there any version of the images posted here where that's indicated or visually clear/correct? Thanks!!

Usge (who's head still hurts)

[olddog]

I'm not quite seeing how the downcomers work. Is there a gap between the fold in the plate and the downcomer where the distillate runs down between them?

No gap the downcomer plate is hard soldered to the folded down section of the bubble plate.

Also, you indicate the bottom of the downcomers should be a frown not a smile

This has been corrected, the curve should be in the shape of a smile.



OD

[olddog]

Off topic posts have been deleted.


OD

[airhill]

Think you missed at least one if not two above then.

[W.S.C.beachman]

Question,
How do you adjust the %alch coming out the flute. Obviously if you put 6 bubble cap sections your getting as pure as you can get...96.2%..I think, but I know that we can disable any section that we want. So if we only use 2 caps for UJSSM does that mean that maybe it will come out at 60%(ex.) I saw on the parent sight I think were there was a diagram that showed how more caps would increase alch. but didn't you get 90%+ with just 2 caps OD??
How much effect will raising or lowering the cap sections change the % alch. EX: plate to plate now is 3"(ex) but if I make it 2" or 4" from plate to plate what happens??
And yes I understand that the wash/wine %alch. will play a big roll as well.

[Usge]

You can delete my previous posts OD....my questions already quoted in your answers to them anyway.

[Samohon]

Heres the corrected downcomer showing the upturns on the bottom of the plate...

I'll update the pdf and post it later...

Or this...

[Usge]

Thanks Sam

Sam and OD, with the shotgun delpleg....what keeps the falling distillate from just running down the open space behind the weir downcomer on the top plate instead of filling it? Is there some kind of diffuser or redirection plate covering that space above the top plate?

[olddog]

I dont think the amount that you are talking about would be a significant concern, but you could put a small diffuser above the weir, similar to a thin Boka plate to prevent this.


OD

[LWTCS]

what keeps the falling distillate from just running down the open space behind the weir downcomer on the top plate instead of filling it?

Wouldn't be a bad thing if a small percentage of higher proof made its way down to the next lowest level.

[Rum Bum]

After looking at KS's Vendome pictures, I don't see anything close to as complex as these plates, on theirs, and that company is top-of-the-line. Maybe we're over-complicating these plates. I'm sure these plates are going to work great but maybe all these tiny details aren't necessary. I think there must be a much simpler way of making bubble plates that are equally effective.

RB

[olddog]

I don't see anything close to as complex as these plates, on theirs

They are virtually the same with a single bubble cap, but there are two tubular downcomers instead of a single weir downcomer.


OD

[myles]

I know I am only putting this in a thumper and not a propper flute type column, but I distributed my downcommers this way to try and even out the flows on the plate. Also because I am integrating it into a thumper, I wanted a greater depth on the plate.



The downcommers have been subsequently modified so that there is no restriction in size - 1" right through the J bends. The flush hole at the back goes to an external, plate drain valve, although this plate is permanently fitted.

[olddog]

by W.S.C.beachman » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:14 am
In the PDF it states that just 2 caps(sections in the tree) created 92% at a pot still speed. HMMM I would like to be able to adjust this so I can get 60% for my UJSSM or rums, brandies and so on. 92% that would be Vodkas only, cause sooo much flavor would be taken out at that high of alch. level...right???? I know it says flavor is still their, but seems to me that if you wanted to do some whiskeys or what ever you would not want to run at 90% plus then cut back to age..Would slightly disabling a section lower the % out put. I don't mean open the valve all the way up just a little bit

I can't give you an honest answer to that, as the 2 plate prototype did not have the plate dissabling system. But I consider with the ability to dissable plates, adjust dephleg and boiler temps this would be achieveable. I am currently building a 4 plate version with all options, I will report results when completed.


OD

[LWTCS]

Just adjust your cooling flow to tour deflagohmmahdater

[W.S.C.beachman]

Thanks,
The Dephlagmater is the first cooling stage that will cool some of the vapors coming up right. So the more cooler I keep it the more distillate that will run back to the top plate and the rest of the vapor that makes it past the Dephlegmator will go get condensed in the shot gun condenser.
OK cool,
All though I am a ways away from building the flute I want to start with the shot gun condenser so I can get rid of my bulky, finiky bucket set up.

[Samohon]

The process of fractionation, vapour/condensate, going on inside the flute, is directly attributed to the amount of coolant going through the dephlegmator and how much reflux is obtained. We already know that to achieve a full flavoured product, 1 or 2 plates within the system would be enough to give us this. But the abv is still way above ageing strength, so how can we achieve a full flavoured whiskey/rum and still be able to have some control over the stength of the distillate. IMO, the answer to this lies in the plate disabling attached to the column.

As OD has pointed out, his build is currently taking place and I, like all here, await his results eagerly... My build will start next week, my surgery got in the way, (Man I'm really Milking This...), or It would have been under-way. This is the design I will be using on a six plate flute.
I believe that, if running all six plates, with full reflux from the dephlegmater, a high abv% neutral will be obtained. My VM gives me azeotrope +95% abv very clean neutral, I always run her a bit faster and this knock the abv down-to 90% - 92%, this is also very very clean. The six plate flute will give me the best of both worlds in the hope that I will have a system that gives me the flavours and abv I want for my whiskey and the neutral Mrs Sam expects from her vodka, from one system, friggin genius...

Learning to drive this beast will be a pleasant and fun experience IMO, but once those sweet spots are found, a still like this will allow the hobbyist a whole new set of variables to play with.

Heres another Image: Look at the 22 plate still to the right, thats 22 disabling valves at the back.

I'am convinced that to control the abv coming of one of these stills, the plate disabling system must be utilised in the build...
Its gonna be friggin awesome tweaking this system to achieve an output that I can put straight onto oak...

And so it continues...

[Samohon]

Oh, and look at the diameter of the disabling pipe afforded to the diameter of the column...

LWTCS, what is the diameter of your downcomer pipes from the humper..? Thanks man..

I have a very good feeling about this...

Heres another Piccie, those boilers are damn pretty...

And so it continues...

[myles]

Remember folks that once a plate has been disabled ALL of the tubes act as vapour paths. That is all your bubble cap standpipes, the disable pipe itself and possibly your downcommers (dependent on their design). The plate disable innitialy removes the layer of liquid from the plate and subsequently deals with any overflow from above. It is NOT the primary vapour path - that is the buble cap standpipes - just the same as it was previously.

[olddog]

They seem to be just using a off/on type valve for dissabling each plate returning the product from that plate to the boiler, I am still undecided whether to use a 3 way valve which would enable you to return the product to a nominated plate rather than everything returned going back to the boiler.


OD

[LWTCS]

Sammy bammy (sorry,,,sippin again).....Samohon,, my return drains are 1/2" (by defalt mind you). And I am quiet pleased that they are...
Been discussing Mike Nixon's recent paper over yonder, and have further concluded/speculated (based on Mr. Nixon's explainations and my own experiences) that high abv return to your next lowest plate is very helpful for a high abv product.....

I have further unqualified opinions about the use of additional plates and fluid amounts contained on the plates as it relates to flavor profiles...

Just need to wait for further dialog from much more qualified gents to develope before I can adaquately express my point of view.

[banjo]

Maybe, just maybe this is a really really stupid question , & I really don't want to start any fires, but here goes. Is there a reason why you specificaly went with a bubblecap on the center area of the plate? other than making it a bit "easier" on the manufacturing side wouldn't a perf. tray or valve do the same job considering if the plate is disabled there are 2 vapor paths(or one if valves are used). If turbulant flow is what you were wanting couldnt it have be made with directed perf holes? or (I havnt quite given it much thought yet..) some kind of reed valve?

[apollopimp]

i believe this is why he went with what he did.. the pros use it so it must be a good design

Great video of a Holstein in action, my current design is based on a scaled down version with single bubble plates.
This illustration is from Holsteins brochure
What suprises me is the diameter of the takeoff tube leading to the condenser.



OD

[Rum Bum]

I asked this on the original Flute thread but nobody goes there anymore so here it is:

When running the flute in potstill mode (no water in the dephleg), what's the abv. you get out? Has anyone tried this for the sake of comparison?

And OD it looks like you had some apple mash fermenting in the background of one of your pics, have you ran that through yet?

RB

[olddog]

I have never yet run a Flute in potstill mode as I have never had the need, I am happy to get a clean high proof with flavor.

And OD it looks like you had some apple mash fermenting in the background of one of your pics, have you ran that through yet

That was for some apple wine, I make wine as well as spirit.



OD

[Rum Bum]

...Mmmm I bet that's a sweet delight

RB

[olddog]

Maybe, just maybe this is a really really stupid question , & I really don't want to start any fires, but here goes. Is there a reason why you specificaly went with a bubblecap on the center area of the plate? other than making it a bit "easier" on the manufacturing side wouldn't a perf. tray or valve do the same job considering if the plate is disabled there are 2 vapor paths(or one if valves are used). If turbulant flow is what you were wanting couldnt it have be made with directed perf holes? or (I havnt quite given it much thought yet..) some kind of reed valve?

The original Magic Flute was designed to be built by anyone with basic tools to bring a plated column to the home distiller, this has been built by others with bubble caps/ valve plates and perforated plates depending on what you wanted from the design. The Flute design works exceptionally well my guess is that there would be well over a hundred now built, KS has started his business building the original Flute design,
Flute II incorporates most of the features that the professional stills have, and requires a bit more metalworking skill level to accomplish. But you could put perforated plates, valve plates or whatever you wish in your build if you wished.


OD

[W.S.C.beachman]

Thanks SamO,
The deflag will only turn some of the vapor into liquid to go back to the top plate right. The rest of the vapor goes to the condenser, so the cooler the deflag the more you get reflux the higher the abv. I guess it is time to get my ass in gear and start this build. Only mine is going to be a 2" instead of 4".

Question about your "00"buck shot condenser: Why spiraled...twisted?? I was just going to make mine 1" in 2"x18-24" cooling chamber with 1/4" cooling tubes and a 3/8" out, but not spiraled only straight..
My boiler is only 5 gallons max.

[Prairiepiss]

IMO, the answer to this lies in the plate disabling attached to the column.

Carl Still.png

Heres another Image: Look at the 22 plate still to the right, thats 22 disabling valves at the back.

Carl Still 2.png

I'am convinced that to control the abv coming of one of these stills, the plate disabling system must be utilised in the build...
Its gonna be friggin awesome tweaking this system to achieve an output that I can put straight onto oak...

And so it continues...

So it has been confirmed that these are in fact tray disabling valves and not just tray drains for cleaning after a run? It's really hard to believe they would just return the condensed liquid that worked so hard to get up to the point of an open valve. Just for the valve to return it back to the boiler. Doesn't seam very efficient.

[Samohon]

Good point PP, I have sent Carl stills an email and await their reply...
Still think its a bit elaborate for a flushing system going all the way to the top of the column...

Any thoughts on this guy's..?