New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2...

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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Prairiepiss
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Prairiepiss »

I was just thinking. If in fact they are using bubble caps. They have to have a way drain the trays after shutdown. And from the pics I have seen they look like a drain system to me. I could be completely wrong. But I do beleave if it is in fact a disabling system they would have to disable from the bottom up. I can't se it working in the middle of the column. ODs 3 way valve idea looks like it would disable a plate in the middle. I still don't know why you would want to? And I still think it would disable the plate above it to if you drain the fluid below the vapor trap.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

Nice job on the design.
I see you're using a similar method to the plate disabling system came up with for my design.
its probably the simplest way to get the job done. and with a little work it could be used with a removable plate system too, just need very tight fitting plates.

before I catch flack, the 30 gallon design is for a micro distillery startup. Will be designing a 6" columned 80 gallon still next.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

I am still in two minds whether to use a two way or three way valve system. A two way would just direct back to the boiler, whereas a three way system could direct back to a nominated plate. eg: If you wanted to just use a couple of plates at the bottom of the column, the product could be just re-directed to the bottom plate for re-distillation, rather than the boiler. The thing only that is putting me off three way valves is just the cost, which is nearly twice the price of a two way in stainless.



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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by The Baker »

olddog wrote:I am still in two minds whether to use a two way or three way valve system. A two way would just direct back to the boiler, whereas a three way system could direct back to a nominated plate. eg: If you wanted to just use a couple of plates at the bottom of the column, the product could be just re-directed to the bottom plate for re-distillation, rather than the boiler. The thing only that is putting me off three way valves is just the cost, which is nearly twice the price of a two way in stainless.



OD
I'm not even sure how the whole thing works, but;

it seems it would be worth trying the three-way system, to evaluate it.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by squidd »

olddog wrote:I am still in two minds whether to use a two way or three way valve system. A two way would just direct back to the boiler, whereas a three way system could direct back to a nominated plate. eg: If you wanted to just use a couple of plates at the bottom of the column, the product could be just re-directed to the bottom plate for re-distillation, rather than the boiler. The thing only that is putting me off three way valves is just the cost, which is nearly twice the price of a two way in stainless.



OD

That was why I suggested earlier to add one valve in the lower part of the drain tube, before the boiler. Would do everything the 3-way valves do, if partially filling the drain tube is acceptable. Can't quite see returning hard earned reflux back into the boiler for reprocessing.

Just sayin',
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

squidd wrote: That was why I suggested earlier to add one valve in the lower part of the drain tube, before the boiler. Would do everything the 3-way valves do, if partially filling the drain tube is acceptable. Can't quite see returning hard earned reflux back into the boiler for reprocessing.

Just sayin',
squidd
you gave me the same piece of advice and its been incorporated into the latest revision of my design, makes complete sense to return reflux to the next lower plate, as well allows one to disable any plate rather than having to do it in order.
its only slightly more fluid retention than a 3 way valve. Simplicity is King
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

I guess I have to keep saving for those SS 3 way valves, thank god it's only a four plate column. :|



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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Rum Bum »

olddog wrote:I guess I have to keep saving for those SS 3 way valves, thank god it's only a four plate column. :|
OD
Sell one of your mansions! :ebiggrin: .... cheers to the future trial of the 3 way valve!

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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Just priced an SS 3 way valve here in the UK (£97.00 + 20% VAT (Sales Tax)... Guess I ain't going that route OD... :cry:
Still waiting on an answer from CC...
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by W.S.C.beachman »

Question?
If you open the drain valve to the first plate then wouldn't the vapor go back to the boiler since it would be the path of least resistance. For the vapor to go up the column it has to go through liquid which has resistance.
I don't understand exactly how the three way valve works though...I know I know its been explained...LOL
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

I made a scaled 2" (DWV) version of the basic template for plates, weir downcomers (including j-trap) and a cutting guide for skirts on a standard 1" copper cap. Wondering if maybe OD or Sam could give it a look to see if you have any suggestions? The one obvious difference is that downcomers have less width vs height (it's the same 4" (plus 5/8" above the plate), but it's near half as wide (much narrower). This left less room for the cuts/smile at the bottom so their are very cuts/gates. All the cuts are approx 1/16" w, 1/8" apart. I've been mocking this up and checking it against my 2" dwv and 1" cap and so far...everything looks like its scaled properly (fits, etc)
2in_DWV_Template.pdf
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Looks good Usge... I'd love to know what the results were from a 2" flute... piccolo... :wink:

Thanks man...
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

I'll let you know. Just getting started, but my plan is for a very simple single plate (to start) with a simpler, straight through dephleg (something more akin to the original flute design) to 90 over to a 1/2" liebig (that I already have). I'm assuming that I need to use the J-trap version of the downcomer for the single plate?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by squidd »

violentblue wrote:
squidd wrote: That was why I suggested earlier to add one valve in the lower part of the drain tube, before the boiler. Would do everything the 3-way valves do, if partially filling the drain tube is acceptable. Can't quite see returning hard earned reflux back into the boiler for reprocessing.

Just sayin',
squidd
you gave me the same piece of advice and its been incorporated into the latest revision of my design, makes complete sense to return reflux to the next lower plate, as well allows one to disable any plate rather than having to do it in order.
its only slightly more fluid retention than a 3 way valve. Simplicity is King

VB,

Advice is a strong word. It implies that I know much more than I really do. :)

Also, the reflux could be channeled to any plate below the disabled one.
Might be interesting to find out the resultant flavor/ABV if the top plate was disabled and the reflux sent to the bottom one.
Minimum fluid retention in this mode.

squidd
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Prairiepiss »

W.S.C.beachman wrote:Question?
If you open the drain valve to the first plate then wouldn't the vapor go back to the boiler since it would be the path of least resistance. For the vapor to go up the column it has to go through liquid which has resistance.
I don't understand exactly how the three way valve works though...I know I know its been explained...LOL
The vapor will not go back to the boiler. The vapor may rise up the drain but it won't come back down. Condensed liquid will fall back to the boiler. Think of it in pressure. If you have a high pressure at the boiler and your low pressure point is your condenser output. High pressure will always move to the low pressure not back to it self. That's the simplest way I can explain it. But there are other factors you're dealing with to. Heat that always rises. Vapors condensing back to liquid this relieves some of the pressure and heat when it happens. And the fact that vapors will compress and liquids will not.

I hope I explained that correctly. Please corect me if I am wrong.

And for the 3 way valve read over this section of Flute talk. It explains the 3 way valve.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 4#p6884884
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Prairiepiss »

I'm sory I should have said a higher pressure. Not high pressure. We are dealing with a very small amount of pressure but it is still a higher pressure than ambient air pressure even if it is only a small amount.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Usge wrote:I'm assuming that I need to use the J-trap version of the downcomer for the single plate?
You assume right Usge... The vapour has to pass through your bubble-cap, so the first plate in the sequence must be the J-Type vapour trap. All subsequent plates in its path will have the wier/dam flooded to act as the trap... Guess you knew that already...lol

That said, those plates will have to be a really tight fit inside your 2" tube...
You gonna have a sight glass, 1 ½" perhaps, so you can have a look inside.?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

Sam, unfortunately...no (siteglass). I'll be strictly going by results (what comes out the other end) for monitoring. I'm going to solder the plate in....so it will be plenty tight :). The top portion of tube will be connected via unsoldered (but teflon taped) 2" copper union with middle stop for now. If I add another plate..I'll just add new section of tube with plate (sized to leave 4" between plate and just so it's downcomer touches the plate below) and push it into the other side of the copper union. That's the plan anyway.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

Samohon wrote:Just priced an SS 3 way valve here in the UK (£97.00 + 20% VAT (Sales Tax)... Guess I ain't going that route OD.
I might have to de-lead some brass ones, I can get those from Ebay for $19.95 each



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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by RayDean »

OD, you talking about 3-ways with an "L" or a "T" configured ball?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Prairiepiss »

A T 3 way valve would be what I would use. That way you could use it for multiple things. One position would alow that tray and the ones above it to drain. Another would direct the drain from above to that plate. And the 3rd position would direct the drain only down to the next lower tray or boiler.

If you used an L valve it wouldn't let the above trays drain at the same time.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by W.S.C.beachman »

Cool thanks Prairie,
I want to start a build right now....$ wont let me though. I got another question though about the fit of the plates to the tube. Lets say the ID is 3.99" and your plates OD would be 3.985, 3.988". That's just an ex. but how tight you keep it? I would think the tighter the better, but unless you hone out the ID of the tube you would have variations in the ID by a good .005-.01". You go and make those plates to tight then they would be bind up or even freeze possibly to the ID of the tube after a run. On the other hand if you give to much play the fluid would just run off the sides of the plates? Sorry I'm a machinist and when it comes to building things I go anal...LOL..lol Don't know how else to say that..LOL
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

olddog wrote:
Samohon wrote:Just priced an SS 3 way valve here in the UK (£97.00 + 20% VAT (Sales Tax)... Guess I ain't going that route OD.
I might have to de-lead some brass ones, I can get those from Ebay for $19.95 each
OD
I got a line on some lead free brass units, just standard valves though, I can ask if they sell 3 ways as well.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Guess I'm gonna pickle a few brass ones too OD... What price do you have for the de-leaded brass valves VB.?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by apollopimp »

would any of these work?

http://www.arrowheadbrass.com/op_champa ... /12/1/71/0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

After working the 1" caps for my 2" DWV project today, I updated the cap template with something that makes it a little easier to see while working on it. The dremel with thin metal cut off wheels works fine — just don't get in a rush with it. The hardest part (for me) was getting the stop points for each cut the same. So, I reworked the template with black color band at the edge you stop the cut....it shows up much better cutting through copper that way.

Anyway, I used a new dremel with flex cable extension and the pictured cut-off wheel. One wheel lasted for the entire cap. (a good sign).
Cap_1.jpg
Took my time and made each cut carefully letting the dremel do the work, but just trying to center each cut and watch (carefully) for the stop point on each cut.
Cap_2.jpg
Cap_bottom.jpg
Cap_closeup_2.jpg
It ain't perfect, but hopefully it's close enough to work properly. One thing to look for...my 1" cap wasn't quite square on the bottom, so I had to file it some before starting. I practiced a bit on a scrap one before starting on this one. I definitely felt like I got into a groove about the 4th cut or so. But, still...hit snags here and there.
Lastly...here's the revised template just for the cap...to make it easier to see/line up. You could also use a piece of electrical tape over the dark part..to give you a little more edge on the stop point. Anyway...it seemed to work for me. Again...this is for my 2" DWV bubble cap project, using standard 1" cap.
v2_cap_template.pdf
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

Samohon wrote:Guess I'm gonna pickle a few brass ones too OD... What price do you have for the de-leaded brass valves VB.?
I don't know yet, I'm waiting for them to get back to me. probably cause its a weekend.
I'll let you know.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Thanks VB and thanks for the link apollopimp, makes the thread a little more comprehensive...

Usge, that cap looks great man...
I have the same Dremel with Flex-cable, I just know its gonna come in handy for making slots and especially for cutting those surface mounting profiles for the sight glasses... I'll hopefully be be starting my build on Monday... Shotgun Dephlag is first, been practising my silver (hard) soldering, with some success I might add, the secret lies in those 5 fire bricks I got, really helps... I'll be posting a blow by blow for hard soldering. After that the the 2" bubble caps and plate tree...

Thanks for uploading the piccies, I think they'll gonna be OK man...
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Uisge_a_Ghlinne »

Gardening vermiculite works great as a heat shield too. It also has the advantage of filling columns. Up until recently I have been using a bog standard gas torch and had to plan things through. Having just got a Rotherberger torch using Mapp its a piece of cake, even on the larger pieces.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Uisge_a_Ghlinne wrote:Gardening vermiculite works great as a heat shield too. It also has the advantage of filling columns. Up until recently I have been using a bog standard gas torch and had to plan things through. Having just got a Rotherberger torch using Mapp its a piece of cake, even on the larger pieces.
Yeah, I use a Rotherberger Mapp torch, that and the fire bricks arranged to keep the heat focused on the work makes things damn easy...

With a handle like Uisge_a_Ghlinne, you gotta be around here somewhere... Glad to have ya man... :wink:

Should have more drawings up tomorrow guy's.... :wink:
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