CM Still Output Improvement Mods Mile High / Brewhaus PSII.

[Prairiepiss]

Compression fittings aren't designed to be taken apart over and over. Over time it won't seal any more. But you can buy new ferrules. And just hack off a half inch or so of the copper. So you can start over. How many times it will last? Can't say.

[rad14701]

I only very gently snug my compression fittings and have swapped my needle valve in and out dozens of times... There's no pressure to worry about so it doesn't take much to stop leaks... If it was to wear I'd used some PTFE tape or buy new collets...

[kiernan10000]

I went to Lowes today, and they were out of the needle valve I wanted in 1/2". I have yet to make my first run, what are your opinions about the new flow control kit with 1/2 ball valve Brewhaus is throwing in with every deal? Will a ball valve provide enough control? I have unlimited 72F water so there will be no changes in coolant temp...

[Prairiepiss]

It depends on the ball valve. It's size and how touchy it is. I have a 3/8" ball valve on my product condenser. I fight with it every time to get the flow I want.

[Prairiepiss]

Sory I was on the middle of a run. Didn't get to post all I wanted to.

You can use the ball valve until you get a needle valve. You mite like the ball valve and not need the needle valve. But I really like the fine control I get with the needle valve.

[kiernan10000]

Well, I better get my butt to home depot for a needle valve then, because if you are fighting a 3/8" for control I don't hold much hope for me working the 1/2" ball that comes in the kit...

It depends on the ball valve. It's size and how touchy it is. I have a 3/8" ball valve on my product condenser. I fight with it every time to get the flow I want.

[RevSpaminator]

You could always do what I've done, use a c-clam on the intake hoze to manage coolant flow. It is very ghetto but after a few runs I've gotten the hang of tweaking it just right.

[GhostfaceStillah]

Hi folks. I'm looking for a little help troubleshooting my modified CM still.

We have a Mile Hi still to which we have recently made many of the suggested modifications:
--lengthened column
--insulated column
--packed column with copper mesh
--added manifold
--added ball valve to output (between dephlegmator and product condenser)
--replaced rubber stopper with ferrule/endcap (with pressure gauge, pressure safety release valve, and thermometer mounted to it)
--welded parrot and copper tubing onto output

Picture of setup attached.

We ran it for the first time with the modifications yesterday, doing a spirits run on some vodka we had previously stripped. Worked great, we were pulling 92% pure product out at around 78.5C vapor temperature. But we only got about 1/3 through before running out of time. So we returned this morning and fired it up again.

Today, without any changes to the configuration, it is behaving quite erratically. The temperature at the top of the column never stabilized once it boiled up, fluctuating rapidly from 60 to 78C. Once some liquid collected in the parrot, every few minutes the parrot would "burp" and shoot out a geyser of product (not good around open flames!). This behavior continued, even with coolant flow to the dephlegmator at full, and the burner set as low as possible.

We took the whole thing apart, verifying there was nothing obstructing flow through the column/product condenser/parrot/output tube. Also took apart coolant manifold and verified water flow was unobstructed through both condensers.

Any ideas what might cause these wild temperature and pressure fluctuations? The *only* difference between yesterday and today is the process started with a gallon less liquid, and what was there had a lower ABV.

Thanks in advance for any advice you might have.

[Resasi]

Also be interested to see what gives with that situation.

Have only completed two runs on the rig so far. The first, a little chaotic, was started with 5 galls of about 18% wash but had problems with the water pump which provides cool water to the condensing coil at the top of the column and also to the water jacket round the collection pipe.

This resulted in steam coming out of the collection pipe and it becoming very hot indeed. Finally managed to get water flow after a while and began collection. Turned that into a stripping run with the idea of doing a second run with the results.

Did that the second run having reduced the ABV of the first run collection to around 40% and all went far more smoothly. Began with a discard of about 500mls of what had come over first, I then began collecting for consumption when I saw a rise of about 2 degrees C from the first stabilized temp taken from the head of the column just by the tap off point. Was not keeping a log so would estimate that as having been around 76 C then going up to around 82. We seemed to be getting a steady 92 ABV with output a very thin trickle. The condensation coil running fully open. Finally finished off as ABV began dropping down and the temp began steadily going up.

This second run seemed more controlled however the hearts of this did not seem quite as good as the hearts of the first run. I suppose that every run will produce a change and different product when the methods I am using are not uniform in this learning stage.

[Prairiepiss]

GhostfaceStillah welcome aboard.
Please step over to the welcome center and give us an intro.

Sory I didn't catch this post sooner.

When you fired it back up. Did you run it in 100% reflux again to get the column to equilibrium? How long did you let it equalize?

What are you using for heat?

Starting a run back up the second time after shutting down in the middle of a run. Isn't as easy as firing it up with the same settings you left off with. You will basically need to start fresh like its a new run. Including a smallish foreshots cut.

[Prairiepiss]

Also be interested to see what gives with that situation.

Have only completed two runs on the rig so far. The first, a little chaotic, was started with 5 galls of about 18% wash but had problems with the water pump which provides cool water to the condensing coil at the top of the column and also to the water jacket round the collection pipe.

This resulted in steam coming out of the collection pipe and it becoming very hot indeed. Finally managed to get water flow after a while and began collection. Turned that into a stripping run with the idea of doing a second run with the results.
That could have turned ugly very quick. That steam was hot alcohol vapors. Very flammable. And it should have been shut down as soon as you figured out the pump wasn't working. Using a pump I would suggest running it the whole time you are heating up. That way you know its working before its to late. Please be careful.

Did that the second run having reduced the ABV of the first run collection to around 40% and all went far more smoothly. Began with a discard of about 500mls of what had come over first, I then began collecting for consumption when I saw a rise of about 2 degrees C from the first stabilized temp taken from the head of the column just by the tap off point. Was not keeping a log so would estimate that as having been around 76 C then going up to around 82. We seemed to be getting a steady 92 ABV with output a very thin trickle. The condensation coil running fully open. Finally finished off as ABV began dropping down and the temp began steadily going up.
Condensation coil? Is this the product condenser or the reflux condenser? I'm assuming you ment product condenser? And it should have full flow all the time. Frombthe sounds of it you were taking product off to fast. And this disrupted the equilibrium of the column. Collection speed at that point should have been around 2 to 3 drips a second. But the temp will rise as the run progresses. Just not fast.

This second run seemed more controlled however the hearts of this did not seem quite as good as the hearts of the first run. I suppose that every run will produce a change and different product when the methods I am using are not uniform in this learning stage.

Yes every run will be a little different. Especially while your learning to drive it. What may of happened is the fact that you were taking it off a little fast. You got a little smearing. Not to mention you used a 18% wash. Extremely high for good spirits. I'm assuming it was made from the tubo junk that came with the still?

This was also your fist run on a new still correct? I would like to point you to the cleaning a new still thread in the must read new distiller reading lounge. A vinegar and water run and a sacrificial alcohol run is suggested for all new stills.

[GhostfaceStillah]

Thanks for the response!

>>When you fired it back up. Did you run it in 100% reflux again to get the column to equilibrium? How long did you let it equalize?

Well, this still has never truly seen 100% reflux even with coolant going 100%. The shotgun condenser inside just doesn't have the surface area to really do it, in my experience. Replacing it with a coiled copper condenser is something we have talked about.
At any rate, we had the coolant water running at full the 30 min or so it took to boil, at which point this immediately started happening.

>>What are you using for heat?
200k BTU propane burner. We have a good regulator, so we can turn it *way* down when not boiling up. A 25 gallon charge usually takes us about an hour to boil.

My current operating theory is that since we started at a warmer than usual temp (it never cools to room temp overnight) and the boil up took half the time, the proper temperature gradients and equilibria never established along the length of the column. Probably causing a pocket of liquid at the bottom of the column, leading to bursts of pressurized vapor coming up the column.

I should and will intro myself over there. Been absorbing from the forum for a while, never posted.

[Prairiepiss]

Even if you turn the heat down you can't get it to go into 100% reflux?

The pic is so small I can't tell. Is it a 2" or a 3". You said shotgun condenser. I never knew milehigh to make a shotgun condenser? They have the old ones with the tubes through them and the newer ones with the jacketed condenser. And I think a forth one with like a cold finger in the center?

But I think you should still be able to with full water flow through the reflex condenser. Turn the heat downbti a point you would have 100% reflux. It almost sounds as if your throwing to much heat into it. The insulation will make a big difference inbthe heat needed to run it. Compared to no insulation.

[GhostfaceStillah]

>>Even if you turn the heat down you can't get it to go into 100% reflux?
No. I suppose I could buy a smaller burner so I have more granular low-temp control. But never had a problem until now, and didn't have a problem with the first run after making the mods (ie the run from the cold start). Could've been just lucky the first time.

>>Is it a 2" or a 3".
3"

>>You said shotgun condenser.
Sorry, typing faster than thinking while reading about other condenser designs sends the wrong input to the output! It is the design with the tube through the middle.

>>It almost sounds as if your throwing to much heat into it
Could be. Strange that it has never been a problem until now...I guess that insulation really does make a difference! A smaller burner is certainly an easy and fairly cheap thing to try. I'm also going to let the liquid fully cool to room temp and fire it again to see if that really matters.

Thanks for the insight.

[Prairiepiss]

The temp the liquid is at start up should not mater. Only difference it will make would be heat up time to boil. The column really won't start heating up until it boils. Once it boils the vapors will now be moving up into the column and heating it up.

I would heat up as normal. When it gets up to temp and you have water flowing through the reflux condenser. Turn it down as low as you can and see if you can achieve as close to 100% reflux as you can. Mine sometimes I will get a drip or two every 5 to 10 seconds. Let it run like that for 45 min to 1 hour. Then take off your foreshots. Then go back to the first setting for another 20 to 30 min. Then start taking off your heads. You can adjust it two different ways. One with the heat input PM (power management) like a pot still. Or with the cooling flow CM. If you get it down to almost 100% reflux. And let it equalize. You can turn the heat up a little to start collecting. And not mess with the cooling side.

Another thing you mite try is removing the insulation from the top part of the column. Leaving the insulation on only up to where the condenser is.

What are the ambient temps where you run the still at?

[GhostfaceStillah]

>>What are the ambient temps where you run the still at?

We're in central TX. Lately, daytime highs have been in the low 80's.

[GhostfaceStillah]

Tried another run on the now-temperamental MileHi still today. Today's goal was to get the heat down as low as possible to see if a full reflux equilibrium could be reached.

At lower heat, the same general behavior is observed--wild temp swings between 60 and 78C, accompanied by the belch/guyser out of the parrot happening at the low end of the temp swing (or on the beginning of the upswing). At lower heat, this cycle takes longer each time to happen, but still happens repeatedly.

I have taken the heat down all the way to the point that the column temperature starts to drop back to ambient temp, so I can't really go any lower. Maybe with a smaller burner, I could tune this in finer, but not sure that will help given I have found this inflection point with current burner.

I can't help but come back to the notion that there is some sort of vapor/liquid flow obstruction causing bursty flow of vapor up the column. Obviously the geyser effect has to come from a slug of hot vapor making it's way through to the product output. The fact that rising vapor temp at the top of column accompanies the geyser would seem confirmation of this. The cyclic nature of this would indicate that there is some over-time buildup of pressure in the vapor above the boiler before the pressure overcomes the obstruction and the blowoff occurs. Just can't imagine what would cause that when heat and cooling are steady

I think next we will start backing out modifications one by one and see if the problem goes away--back to straight through flow instead of the parrot, back to the old type of mesh packing, et al.

Curiouser and Curiouser...

[Prairiepiss]

Try removing the insulation. If your temps are in the 80s. This mite be the problem. That mod helps in cold breezy climates. But may hurt your results in warmer climates.

How do you have the coolant flow routed?

You may also try boil chips in the boiler.

[GhostfaceStillah]

We shall try it without insulation before disassembling the column again. When we ran it over the summer, even at 105F ambient, a breeze would cause the temp at the top of the column to briefly fluctuate a few C. Now I look back on that small fluctuation fondly!

Coolant flow is anti-gravitational (for both condensers, lower is inlet and upper is outlet). We tried a bunch of configs of this in the past, never seemed to matter. But maybe it does now that we have made other mods.

[Prairiepiss]

Do you have the coolant supply going to each condenser or through one to the other?

[GhostfaceStillah]

>>Do you have the coolant supply going to each condenser or through one to the other?

We have separate flows to each condenser. Pic attached.

[Prairiepiss]

Ok went back and checked what mods you did.

Do you have a vent on your parrot?
And how tight did you pack your column? It should be kinda tight but you should be able to breath normal through it. Can you hear liquid bubbling in the column? Flooding? It would sound kinda like its boiling in the column.

[Maddawgs]

Hi All,
My first post on this forum (have been a lurker for a while). This thread has been a great read as I'm planning on buying the BH PS2 HC soon and before I place my order I had a few questions on these mods. Before I contact Rick I want to be sure to ask for the mods I'll need. Are they still needed for the high capacity (HC) 3 inch column? With the 3 inch column would the extra column section be needed (3 sections instead of 2)? If the column is well packed is a centering ring needed? Is the thermometer at the top the only one I'll need or should there be one in the boiler. Thanks in advance for any help.
Maddawgs

[GhostfaceStillah]

>>Do you have a vent on your parrot?
Yes.

>>how tight did you pack your column? It should be kinda tight but you should be able to breath normal through it.
We thought it was loose enough, but are repacking it today with less mesh

>>Can you hear liquid bubbling in the column? Flooding? It would sound kinda like its boiling in the column.
No, we haven't noticed anything along those lines

[GhostfaceStillah]

Success!

Today we repacked the column with 1/2 the amount of Cu mesh as used previously, and dumped a couple of pounds of ceramic rashings into the boiler to break up the bubble pattern.

This significantly stabilized the column. The wild temperature fluctuations and bursts of vapor are not happening now. We are able to get a steady full-reflux equilibrium, and after pulling off some foreshots, we are now getting about 3L/hr of 93% pure product.

Thanks for all your help troubleshooting, @prariepiss! It is very much appreciated.

[Prairiepiss]

Great news. I'm glad its working good. What kind of ABV was you getting out of it?

[Prairiepiss]

Hi All,
My first post on this forum (have been a lurker for a while). This thread has been a great read as I'm planning on buying the BH PS2 HC soon and before I place my order I had a few questions on these mods. Before I contact Rick I want to be sure to ask for the mods I'll need. Are they still needed for the high capacity (HC) 3 inch column?
With the 3 inch column would the extra column section be needed (3 sections instead of 2)?
No if it already comes with an extension. You don't need another one.
If the column is well packed is a centering ring needed?
Try it without see how it does. This is not a mod they will do. This is one you would need to do.
Is the thermometer at the top the only one I'll need or should there be one in the boiler.
Yes that one is the only one you need.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Maddawgs

They will add a triclamp ferrule at the top and supply you with a SS 3" cap to replace the rubber bung on top of the column. For an added fee. I would ask for this.

[GhostfaceStillah]

Great news. I'm glad its working good. What kind of ABV was you getting out of it?

After adjusting for temperature, a little under 93% ABV.

Before making the mods to the column as described in this topic, we never saw more than 88%....so I guess this evolution is a success.

[Prairiepiss]

That's sounds like a good improvement. I bet if you pack just a little more packing in it. And run just a little slower. You would see 95%.

[Maddawgs]

Hi All,
My first post on this forum (have been a lurker for a while). This thread has been a great read as I'm planning on buying the BH PS2 HC soon and before I place my order I had a few questions on these mods. Before I contact Rick I want to be sure to ask for the mods I'll need. Are they still needed for the high capacity (HC) 3 inch column?
With the 3 inch column would the extra column section be needed (3 sections instead of 2)?
No if it already comes with an extension. You don't need another one.
It is very similar to the PS2 2 inch column, botom section is pot still, top section is reflux Bayuo-Ruler had this mod done on his PS2 inch
If the column is well packed is a centering ring needed?
Try it without see how it does. This is not a mod they will do. This is one you would need to do.
Ok Thanks, is there an off the shelf part or is it more a home made item?
Is the thermometer at the top the only one I'll need or should there be one in the boiler.
Yes that one is the only one you need.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Maddawgs

They will add a triclamp ferrule at the top and supply you with a SS 3" cap to replace the rubber bung on top of the column. For an added fee. I would ask for this.

Hi Prariepiss,
Thanks for the reply and the help. I'll be sending an email off to Rick today.
Thanks, Maddawgs