Column insulation

[astronomical]

I read in another thread on HD that the lack of column insulation when aiming for neutral won't hurt ABV... Is this true? It was said that the parasitic reflux within the column will only help the ABV and that an insulated column is more important for potstilling. I cant get over 93% on my cleaning run and I'm not sure why. I'm thinking the lack of insulation is the problem.

Running a 2"/50" packed 6' LM Nixon Mccaw
~900 watts
10ml/m take off
brewhaus mesh packing rolled into a bunch of 5" plugs
insulated boiler. no column insulation
open to atmosphere (no cap)
cooling water running at about 500ml/m and coming off warm but not hot

Any suggestions?

I intend to insulate it, but, I needed to be able to look for leaks and what not. Could it really me knocking me down 1.5-2 points?

[rad14701]

Throwing more heat which will in turn create more reflux should boost the purity of your spirits... If a 10ml per minute take off rate is the best you can do without the thermometer climbing you aren't using enough heat... That rig should be able to run faster... I don't think insulation is the problem unless you are running out in the breezy cold...

[mash rookie]

I read in another thread on HD that the lack of column insulation when aiming for neutral won't hurt ABV... Is this true? It was said that the parasitic reflux within the column will only help the ABV and that an insulated column is more important for potstilling. I cant get over 93% on my cleaning run and I'm not sure why. I'm thinking the lack of insulation is the problem.

Running a 2"/50" packed 6' LM Nixon Mccaw
~900 watts

That is not much power for that tall of column. How big is your boiler? Yes, insulate your column. You may get a little more vapor up there. It is pretty tough to get above 93% on any rig. Your meter may not be accurate, you may not be reading at the correct temp. You are getting the job done if you are over 90%

MR

[astronomical]

15.5G keg boiler.. 5500w element on MK5500.. I tried it at several different wattages (between 4 and 10 amps) and it was always around 92-93.5. I hit the higher numbers at the lower wattage. I think my packing may be a bit too loose (3' plugs.. I new see that 3.5-4' is recommended by Brewhaus). Ive since jammed them in tight and added more. I was rather impatient with equilibrium as well (about 20 minutes after every change). My temps were solid at 78.1. My brewhaus rig does 92 so I'm looking to improve. 95 is the goal here.

Should it be a lot easier to achieve 95 when using low wines (as opposed to wash)? or is it just a matter of proper input and RRs?
Im sort of lost as to where that last percentage points are hiding. I'll keep at it til I figure out the perfect storm. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Ill try a higher wattage again as Rad had suggested and I'll let it equalize a while longer.

One thing i was tinking about was that I was running about 1/3 liter of cooling a minute when at the lower heat input. Perhaps there is a certain amount of cooling water I should aim for and I could match my heat to fit that?

I have faith in this rig and I'm pretty confident it'll get there. This is my first time ever running LM (CM PSII) so it'll take some adjusting.

[myles]

This is just my opinion - but I never put fermented wash into my reflux column boiler.

My column is mostly used for re-cycling feints from the pot still, to produce a base spirit for infused drinks. However, I do sometimes make a simple sugar fermentation to feed it. I always strip the sugar wash in the pot still and dilute the low wines to 27-30% to charge the boiler for the column. A lot of folks recomend a 40% or higher charge for the column, but I don't do it that way myself.

EDIT: Sorry forgot to add, I would insulate all the way to the bottom of the reflux condenser chamber. It might not be needed but it certainly won't hurt, and it does increase the thermal stability of the rig. On a large diameter column the naturally induced reflux condensate from the column wall probably is not significant. On our smaller diameter columns if you are trying to run in an area where you are exposed to strong drafts your temperatures can bounce like mad. Insulation just makes life a bit easier.

[rad14701]

I think you'll see the greatest amount of improvement by getting your column filled with structured packing of the proper density... If it is filled from the bottom to within a column diameter of the working section, whether VM take off branch, dual slant plates, CM reflux tubes, or LM reducer throat, you should end up with a more HETP's which will optimize performance... That would be my first suggestion... From there you can try any of the other possible tweaks...

[astronomical]

Thank you very much for the helpful responses. I bulked up the packing a bit and, since my column is split (31 and 19 inches), I am making a collar from some 2" scrap. I'm inside so I doubt it is drafty, but, I will insulate after I get some copper porn of it shined up. I did notice that the "downcomer" below the neck was rather short and I'm thinking it may have been "swinging" reflux towards the wall of the reducer. I have since fixed that by adding a portion of a coupler to the protusion. It was previously only extending 1/8" (Tee configuration restricted LM with VM arm). I hope to bring some good news and pretty pics in the new year. Have a merry christmas and be safe.

Thanks
Astro

[Prairiepiss]

Ok you have me cornfused? First post you said.

Running a 2"/50" packed 6' LM Nixon Mccaw

Then later you said this.

My brewhaus rig does 92 so I'm looking to improve. 95 is the goal here.
This is my first time ever running LM (CM PSII) so it'll take some adjusting.

And your last post.

Thank you very much for the helpful responses. I bulked up the packing a bit and, since my column is split (31 and 19 inches), I am making a collar from some 2" scrap. I'm inside so I doubt it is drafty, but, I will insulate after I get some copper porn of it shined up. I did notice that the "downcomer" below the neck was rather short and I'm thinking it may have been "swinging" reflux towards the wall of the reducer. I have since fixed that by adding a portion of a coupler to the protusion. It was previously only extending 1/8" (Tee configuration restricted LM with VM arm). I hope to bring some good news and pretty pics in the new year. Have a merry christmas and be safe.

Thanks Astro

So what kind of still are you running? A brewhaus PSII is a CM still. But you called it a Nixon Maccaw LM. Then you said it has a downcomer? And a VM arm? None of this makes any since. Unless you have frankinstined 3 different stills together to make one?

Could you maybe post some pics of it?

[astronomical]

Sorry prairie, that was a vague mess. I just build this nixon Mccaw all in one from the "still drawings" thread. I've been using a PSII for the last two years, but, I'm looking to improve on my results with this new still. I was foolishly calling the drip ring a downcomer because I couldn't think of how to describe it. I didnt mention the VM arm in the original post because I didnt think it would effect my purity. (ignore the CM portion)

[astronomical]

You called it prairie, Frankenstilled. Used part of my brewhaus and made an all in one. I should have noted that the bottom 19" of my column is SS and the top 31" is copper. Im not sure if that has any bearing on anything. Anyhow, I'm proud of it. Thats my resident distillery cat Hibachi. He calls the shots.

[Prairiepiss]

Ok thanks for clearing that up. That makes more since. Good looking still.

Copper conducts heat better then stainless. So if the ambient temps were low. The copper would cool the vapors better then the stainless. Don't know that it would make a big diff in the efficiency of your still?

I would insulate it up to the LM takeoff. And see what happens. And definitely get the packing squared away.

Good luck.

[astronomical]

Copper conducts heat better then stainless. So if the ambient temps were low. The copper would cool the vapors better then the stainless.

Thank you. I had considered the thermal conductivity and thought it may be beneficial. Now that I think about it, it seems like it would just be detrimental to the column stabilization. Insulation should clear up any problem though ( i would think). My original thoughts were that it would keep more of the alcohol from returning to the boiler. That now seems like wishful thinking at best. I will swap out that stainless for copper if things dont improve.

See anything inherently wrong with the still besides that?

[Prairiepiss]

I don't think it would need to be swapped out for copper. It shouldn't make that much difference. And insulating it would solve the problem if there was one. Stainless is used all the time. Without problems.

The only other problem I see with it is. It's not on a boiler making some good drink.

[astronomical]

Well put sir. I'm making some final tweaks and trying not to rush things even though I'd like to. I figure once its all properly configured there will be no headaches.

[Spriit Tisler]

Sorry for digging graves, but how much a good layer of insulation around boiler and column improves the potential of the still? I'm mostly looking for saving gas during heat-up and reflux by minimizing the heat that leaves the system by any other way than water running through the coil.

[der wo]

It helps much. Especially when running slow on the grain an insulation helps much. A small investment for much comfort. And in the summer it is nice, that the room doesn't heat up.
But because you heat with gas, you have to ensure, it is fireproof. Or better build a heat shroud than an boiler insulation and insulate the column and lid only.

[Spriit Tisler]

If I had TIG welder I'd make vacuum mantle around my still. Now I'm gonna get me a bale of rockwool from hw store and wrap it around my still. I once made a raku style heat treatment furnace (good for reactivating carbon too?! ) with rockwool and when the additives smoked off it worked like charm. I know from experience that any plastic, urethane or other than ceramic wools will decompose if gas burner is held close so some sort of pipe insulation could be considered only around reflux column.

Should equilibriation time be reduced if column is well insulated?

[Kareltje]

I do not know if insulating the column helps a lot in enhancing the percentage, but insulation of the boiler saves me about half the gas!

[Spriit Tisler]

To my knowledge it will not improve the abv, but it should allow for much quicker equilibrium (since heat loss would in ideal column become only from the reflux coil), maybe speaking in minutes instead of hours and hence reducing gas once again. Now lots of energy is lost through column walls, causing external condensation and loss of equilibrium. I'm not quite the professional but this is how I've understood it. Some stupid folks in chemistry forum trust natural condensation and reflux through ambient air but this is nonsense bullshit and I don't understand how chem people don't use reflux condensers in their fractional distillations.

[Kareltje]

Today while I was doing a strip run I needed extra cooling on my condenser.
Later, when I was walking the dog, I pondered a bit about making a good system for that and in between I thought about cooling the riser. It seemed logical: when you want a higher ABV you can pack the riser or make it longer. Cooling the top a bit might give the same effect.
In fact that is what a deflegmator does too.
I will try it, and eventually report.

[Kareltje]

Today I did try it.
Had a pipe of 15 cm OD and about 70 cm length and then the arm to the condenser. About 30 %ABV in the boiler.
Started at 81,5 degr. C and 79,5 %. Then I tied a wet cloth around the top of the pipe, and the temperature dropped to 79,5 degr. C and the strength raised to 86 %.
Not surprising maybe, but I think that isolating the column does make it shorter and lowers the %ABV.