Jbabb's 3" flute build

[jbabb]

Well, here it goes. I have tried to convince myself that I don't need a flute and that my 1.5" boka was just fine. Thanks to NChooch, I came across a steal on some 3" pipe so now I guess I do need a flute. I am going to build pretty much the same thing that NChooch built and I am using his build as a guide for mine. The 3" pipe has not arrived yet so I can't do too much on the build but, I do have the 3" and 1.5" disks and some left over 1.5" pipe from the boka build. I decided to go ahead and build my shotgun condenser while I wait. I just have it mocked up right now and not soldered yet. I am toying with the idea of silver soldering (hard solder) the tubes and plates on the condenser. This way when I later solder on the elbow at the top of the condenser I won't break my previous joints loose. Now, I have never used silver solder before so I don't know much about it but from what I have found on here, Stay Silv 15 is a popular choice. What do you guys think? Anyway, here are a few pictures to get the build started of the condenser mocked up ready for some form of solder, hard or soft. Building this thing is 75% of the fun for me.

[Sungy]

From my experience

45 % silver is used with oxy acetylene torch and paste flux. Used for joining different metals. Very strong material.
15% silver is for copper to copper joints. oxy acetylene torch flux optional . Very strong material. Small amount of slag on joint from rod.
5% silver is for copper to copper joints. oxy acetylene torch flux optional . Very strong material. Larger amount of slag on joint from rod. Harder to work with.

Mapp gas will work up to 3/4" pipe size

[jbabb]

Well I finally got some more time to work on my build. I got the shotgun condenser all soldered up and think it turned out pretty good. Haven't cleaned it up yet since I will be polishing everything at once when I am done. Also FINALLY got my 3" DWV pipe the other day. I went to put the disks that I have received from metaliferous.com in the pipe I was kind of let down. Apparently there is a good bit of difference in wall thickness between type L and DWV pipe. I have read of people having to file their disks down to fit the pipe and assumed I would do the same. Not the case. Mine have a pretty good gap between the wall and the side of the disk (see picture). I have read of someone, can't remember who, saying to solder a piece of 14ga. copper wire to the plate then the plate to the column. I was planning on soldering the plates in anyway. I don't think that soft solder is going to fill the gap that I have very easily though. Has anyone come up with any ideas that work better?

[MadsF]

Spread the plate with a hammer

[jbabb]

Wow. I am 2 for 2 on stupid questions tonight. Don't know as much as I thought I did I guess. Thanks for the quick reply.

[emptyglass]

Hard for me to see the exact gap, but if you centre the disc with appropriatly sized copper wire, you should pull it off.

Your not sealing against high pressure, vibration or other demanding applications.

Failing that, you could roll up some rings and add them to the outside diameter, not because you need them for sealing, but to take up space.
Or make some new discs.

[NcHooch]

That sure is a purdy shotgun you made there jbabb! ...keep up the good work!

[rad14701]

Several pieces of various gauges of wire might help determine the best course of action... Then you'd know whether soldering a specific gauge of wire around each plate would be the better than using a strip of copper sheeting to form each plate into a cup...

[Sungy]

If you are going to join wire around the edge of a plate use a big hose clamp ss to hold it while you solder it with soft solder( wont stick to ss). If you are soldering the plates into the column you will have to use 15% silver solder or higher to solder wire to plate. You cant use the gear clamp to hold work, as it will sick to the work as well. Then use soft solder to attach plates to column.

[jbabb]

Ok, I have thought about this all day at work, (working real hard) and this is what I have come up with. Let me see if I can't put it into words. I don't have alot of money to put into this so I don't want to have to buy anything more than necessary. I have some 12ga wire laying around so I stripped some of it and cut a piece long enough to make a circle inside the column and trimmed the ends so it fits tight, kind of like a C-clip. My thought is to solder (spot weld) these to the bottom of the plates in about 4 spots around the plate. Then when I got to insert the plate tree, place the ring of solder around the plates as normal. The wire will help create a trough so to speak for the solder to stick too. My gap between the plate and the wall is about 1/16th of a inch when the plate is slid all the way up against one side so when the plate is centered it is about 1/32". This is what I have come up with. I am also thinking of "spreading" the edges of the plates with a hammer and filing them to fit. I ordered 8 plates just so I would have two "just in case." I am glad that I do have extra now, looks like I might need them. Let me know what you guys think. Am I just over thinking this and the soft solder will more than likely seam it up? I am just afraid it will run out of the gap.

[emptyglass]

With some care and patience, you could get solder to bridge 1/32".

Thats why I suggested rings, they are easier to handle than wire. They only need be 3/16" or 1/4" wide (as you dont need them for a dam), by 1/32" thick. They will be self holding, either on the plates, or in the column, if made well. This take the pain out of the job.
I'd put them on the plates, that way you can fit them to the column and get each one right before soldering in place.

[jbabb]

Thanks emptyglass, I understand what you are talking about now. I do think rings would be easier to handle and ultimately easier to solder. I will have to give that a whirl.

Made a little more progress tonight and got my dephlag mocked up. Man trying to get those tubes into those plates is rough. Exactly like someone else said, It's like trying to herd cats, or, pushing a rope. But I finally got it done. Looks pretty good now, just hope it solders up ok. The rest of my parts should be here tomorrow and it is supposed to rain all weekend so it should be a good weekend to work in the "shed." I see why people go into business making these things now, this is fun stuff!

[olddog]

Solder your top and bottom plates into the casing tube, using hard solder. Then solder your vapor tubes into the endcaps using soft solder which has a lower melting point, and you will not unsolder the endcaps while you are soldering the tubes. It just makes the job easier.


OD

[jbabb]

Got alot of goodies in the mail today. All the fittings came from pexsupply. I also ordered some stay silv 15 and harris stay clean flux. I am going to give this silver soldering thing a try with a MAPP gas torch first. I hope that is gonna get the job done since it is a little bit harder for me to get ahold of an oxy/acet torch. In the mean time I have plenty to do making the four plates and drilling all those holes. Plan to stack drill them. I'll post up later how many bits it takes.....

[jbabb]

Just thought I would post up a quick picture of my jig I came up with for drilling plates. It is just a 1/2" piece of plywood with a slightly smaller than 3" hole cut in it. The slot it the side allows you to spread the jig with a flat screwdriver to insert the disks. Once the screwdriver is out, the disks are held tight. Add a small clamp to hold the disks down and you are good to go. I used this tonight to drill two of my four disks for my plates. The holes to the right show where I used it to drill my dephlag holes. Maybe this will help some of us without a full shop.

[Saltbush Bill]

Solder your top and bottom plates into the casing tube, using hard solder. Then solder your vapor tubes into the endcaps using soft solder which has a lower melting point, and you will not unsolder the endcaps while you are soldering the tubes. It just makes the job easier.


OD

Good advise Old Dog.....I wish I had thought of that when building mine
Cheers SBB

[Sungy]

This is how I held every thing together for soldering. I used 2 plates space out 1/2" apart mounted on a 1/4" x 2" bolt. Then wrapped the band around and clamped with SS gear clamp. Solder the bottom of assembly and rotate a bit then solder again. Let it cool and the band will be square to the plate. I tried many methods and this worked very well. You can see that plate has been partially soldered.

[jbabb]

Thats looks to be a great idea Sungy. I might give that a try. I just got all of my plates drilled, only broke 6 bits, and I will be going to Home Depot to get a SS threaded rod today. Then I will see how well all the plates fit in the column as a whole. What thickness of plate did you use to make your rings out of sungy? Was it a piece of 3" or 4" just trimmed to fit inside the column? I am wondering if that thickness of my 3" pipe would work. I could just cut a 1/4" or so ring off of the end, split on side and trim it up a bit. Just an idea.

[Sungy]

The material I used was the thinnest sheet stock I could get. Came from a copper roofing shop. Scrap to them, gold to me. I like the pipe ring idea. Just split it and compress a bit. Sounds simple and should work well. You might want to make them the same height as your overflow tube that goes down to the next lower plate.. just a thought.

[acfixer69]

Then I will see how well all the plates fit in the column as a whole. What thickness of plate did you use to make your rings out of sungy? Was it a piece of 3" or 4" just trimmed to fit inside the column? I am wondering if that thickness of my 3" pipe would work. I could just cut a 1/4" or so ring off of the end, split on side and trim it up a bit. Just an idea.

With the perforated plates a weir is not really needed if the fit is decent. Caps and valves weirs are a must have.

AC

[jbabb]

Got my threaded rod tonight and got the plates in the column as a whole for the first time. This is the kind of gap that I am dealing with. Whatda ya'll think....

[jbabb]

Did a little experiment tonight. I took one of my spare 3in disks and flattened the outside edge with a hammer. I figured for no more than I had to have, I could spread the copper. Got done with the hammer and tried it in the 3in column and presto, no more gap and I could solder it with no problem if I had to. Now I just have to do this for the rest of my plates that are already drilled. I figure the hammering will probably close up a few of my outside holes but I can always redrill them. I think this is going to be a lot easier that trying to make up rings or use copper wire as a trough. What do ya'll think, see any reason this won't work?

[NcHooch]

That would be my plan !
keep the pics comin

[jbabb]

I made a little progress tonight, very little though. I soldered my 1.5" return bend onto the top of my shotgun condenser. What a PITA this turned out to be. I had to do this twice and I still don't think I am done. The first time I just didn't get the joint hot enough and there wasn't a good bond. I was scared of getting too hot and making my joints on the condenser turn loose because they are all soft soldered. We don't do things the easy way here, nothing but the hard way for me. After I finally got all of the solder off of the joint for round two, I made sure not to touch the virgin copper with my fingers. I fluxed up and went for it. The joint turned out great but I think I have a very very small leak in my top plate of my shotgun condenser. I put a tube on the top of the water outlet of the condenser and filled it with water. With the condenser sitting upside down, the water level fell very little if any. Of course I don't want to take the fitting back off and do this again but we'll see. I let the water sit for a hour and saw very little if any water level drop. I will let it sit overnight and see what I get.

[emptyglass]

I think you would be well served by testing it at at least the pressure it's going to run at, be that pump or mains.

Set it up so its under pressure, and you can catch any fluid in a jar. Leave for a while, like your doing under gravity, and see what you get.

[jbabb]

I let the condenser sit overnight. The water level looks to have dropped very little if any but, like emptyglass said, it is under any pressure just the pressure from the head of water over the plate. I might hook up the pump to it tonight and just let it circulate water to see what I can find that way. It is the top plate that could be leaking though, so if my thinking is right, it isn't going to leak water under normal operation because the water outlet is about a inch lower. It could possibly leak vapor in though I guess.

[NcHooch]

Well, after sittin overnight, the big question in my mind would be , Is there any water in the return bend? ....looks pretty good from here tho!

Don't feel too defeated...I forget which one, but I had to take one of my joints apart and redo it as well.
I've been thinking about trying something next time i solder a fitting to a previously soldered assembly ...
What if you poured just enough water down inside the condenser so there was a 1/16th of an inch laying on the solder joints of the condenser ?... then get in there quick and solder the fitting on and hopefully that water wont be completely gone by the time you get the fitting soldered. The vaporizing water should keep all those joints intact until you finish. Hmm?

[jbabb]

Well, jumped over a big hurdle for myself tonight. Got my dephlag soldered up tonight. It went alot better and easier than I thought. I ended up chickening out on the silver solder and just soft soldered everything at one time. I actually soldered the tubes into the plates outside of the case, making sure that they fit in the case before I soldered of course. Then I slid the entire thing inside the case and put the coupling on the outside. I soldered the plates to the case and the coupling to the case in one go round. Worked out great and nothing pulled loose that I had soldered before. Don't know why I was so worried about this. The copper is not all shined up and pretty yet but you get the idea. Now on to the plate tree........

[NcHooch]

dang, that might even be prettier than the one I made!

[jbabb]

Well NChooch, it should look familiar, it is the spittin image of what you made. Thanks again for putting your build on the board. I have followed it to the T and I hope I get your results. Mine is for sure not the prettiest I have seen on here but I think it'll get the job done. I am for sure learning more about soldering as I go.