Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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Maritimer
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Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by Maritimer »

In a previous post http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=32148 I outlined my conjecture that the Reflus Ratio could be meaured in a VM still in which the coolant flows first through the product condenser and then through the reflux condenser by measuring the temperature difference across each and then using this formula:

RefluxRatio = coolantTemperatureDifferenceAcrossRefluxCondenser/coolantDifferenceAcrossBothCondensers

Here is a copy of the calculations from the first post:
Maritimer wrote: Suppose we run the boiler at 1000 watts = 238.8 cal/sec.

This will be converted to vapour which will be condensed, heating the coolant with this 1000 watts.

If the coolant is flowing at 50 ml/sec = 50 gm/sec for water, it will be heated at the rate of (238.8 cal/sec)/(50 gm/sec) = 4.776 cal/gm.

1 calorie is the heat required to raise 1 gram of water 1*C, so the coolant will rise 4.776*C.

Does the volume of the condenser matter? Suppose we have two condensers, one of 100 ml volume, and the other at 400 ml volume. At 50 ml/sec coolant flow, the 100 ml condenser is flushed in 2 seconds, and the 400 ml is flushed in 8 seconds.

The 100 ml condenser is heating up at 238.8 cal/sec, but it takes 2 seconds to flush the condenser, so the temperature rise is (238.8 cal/sec)/(100 gm/2 sec) = 4.776 cal/gm = 4.776*C for water.

The 400 ml condenser is the same: (238.8 cal/sec)/(400 gm/8 sec) = 4.776 cal/gm = 4.776*C.

So, the temperature rise is proportional to the vapour power, and inversely proportional to the coolant flow rate:

tempDiff = vapourPower/coolantFlowRate [(cal/sec)/(gm/sec) = cal/gm = *C]
And this is proportional to the mass of condensate because the mass vapourized is the boilerPower/LHV: (238.8 cal/sec) / (220.8 cal/gm) = 1.082 gm/sec for pure ethanol, for example.

So,
tempDiff = Constant X rateOfCondensateProduction [the Constant will depend on the vapour composition] With the same flow rate in the two condensers, the ratio of the temperture rises is then proportional to the rate of masses produced by the condensates:

tempDiffOfRefluxCondenser / tempDiffOfProductCondenser = massOfReflux/massOfProduct [the Constants cancel, and the rate i.e., 1/sec cancel]

And ultimately,

RR = (mass of reflux condensate)/(total mass of vapour from boiler)

RR = tempDiffOfRefluxCondenser / (tempDiffOfRefluxCondenser + tempDiffOfProductCondenser )

M
I've instrumented my still with four thermometers:three on the coolant lines, and one on the boiler. Everything has been insulated excessively. I've input all data into an Excell spreadsheet, which I don't seem to be able to include in this post. If you would like a copy, please PM me.

During the experiment, I varied boiler power and coolant flow rate. The calulated values of RR were all over the place, but were centered around 0.822. When I realized that what I was seeing was noise, I took readings for 22 minutes, every minute. The average was 0.835 with maximum of 0.900 and minimum of 0.765.

Now the question arises: What is the source of the noise?

There are two possibilities:
1) The boiler power controller uses random cycle powering to generate powers less than maximum.
50% duty cycle.jpg
.
To check if the power pulsing is the cause, the four 1000 W elements of the boiler can be arranged in a series-parallel circuit to provide 1000 W, or a single element can be used. If the noise disappears, the noise source will have been identified.
2) The condensation process is inherantly noisey. I suspect this more than the power supply. As the vapour condenses, it will create a vacuum, pulling air and more vapour into the void. The condensation causes a sudden heating of the condenser which is transferred to the coolant. The noise is a reflection of the turbulance in the condenser.

In the next experiment, temperature sensors will be glued onto copper tubing which will be inserted into the coolant lines. This way, the real-time temperature can be seen on an oscilloscope. The solution might be to build analogue filters (or to use digital averaging) to find the constant component of the temperture.

M
Maritimer
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Re: Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by Maritimer »

I did a stripping run today and had a chance to try out my new temperature sensors. they are part number LM35 from Texas Instruments http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm35.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow.
they cost $5.94 each and are accurate to +/-0.2*C. I mounted them on 3/8" OD copper tubing:
P1080643.jpg
then I put them in a piece of styrofoam and taped them together:
Temp sensor in package.jpg
I put one sensor at the the condenser coolant inlet and another at the outlet. I took the two signals and sent them into the inputs of a Linear Technology instrumentation amplifier LT1920 http://cds.linear.com/docs/Datasheet/1920f.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow. This gave me a real-time signal of the temperature difference of the coolant flow temperature difference.

I used a digital oscilloscope set to 5 seconds per division to look at the temperature difference variations.

The source of the noise is the power supply. It uses an algorithm that randomly turns on a full cycle of 60 Hz power at the probability set by a pot on a microcontroller. I used the rand() function supplied with the development system. It turns out that, although the short-term randomness seems pretty random, the long-term randomness follows another random path. It is the long-tem randomness that appears as noise:
1000 watts original.jpg
In the photo, the dashed line is 1000 watts. Zero is down at the bottom, shown by a vertical cross. This algorithm switches the power between zero, 2000, and 4000 watts. the smallest on-time is one whole cycle, or 1/60th second.

I changed the algorithm to switch between zero, 1000, 2000, 3000, or 4000 watts with a half-cycle being the smallest on time. This improved things immensely:
1000 watts improved algorithm.jpg
.
But it hardly compares to using a single element at 100% on time;
100 watts single element.jpg
If this RR measurement is going to work--and I think it will work very well--the power is going to have to be controlled with a new algorithm.

Suggestions?

M
HolyBear
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Re: Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by HolyBear »

Da da Da, this looks like a job for the flyingdutchman might try pm...
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
joseph9936
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Re: Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by joseph9936 »

I am in Industrial Automation and I will have my still controlled using an Allen Bradley plc. Wonderware for the HMI and data collection. I'll have 8 thermocouples reading the temps all over. inlet and outlet of my condensors, temp of product, vapor temp, outside temp, and other places if I can think of more!lol I will be collecting the data as I make every run and exporting it to excell to anaylize. I hope to automatically control every step of the process and stand by and watch. just to play and see how it comes out. To control my vapor temp I am either contolling the liquid temperture OR putting a control valve on the flow and keep the water at a constant 32 degrees. not sure until I get into it. I got into this for the science of it, I really do not like to drink so I end up putting it in my sprayer as week killer. lmao...
P.S. I am very interested in understanding how to come up with a Reflux Ratio! So enjoyed your acticle:-)
Maritimer
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Re: Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by Maritimer »

At last, a fellow automation fan! I'm in it for the alcohol and the fun.

I hate to sound like the ol' grumpies on this site, but you should have a working still to automate. Playing around with the condensers has taught me a lot about how the still works.

I guess you must be familiar with the AB PLC. Might I convince you to use my favourite microcontroller, the Zilog eZ8 Encore!? Here is the DigiKey page: http://www.digikey.ca/product-search/en ... &x=25&y=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow. Note the price, $42.36. This includes a beautiful ANSI C compiler. You need to work a little closer to the electronics, though.

As you get to know more about stills, you'll find that you are not interested in controlling the boiler temperature, but the boiler power. The vapour temperature will sort itself out, but it tells you a lot about the composition of the vapour, so you will need to measure it. There is no need to keep the coolant at 32 degrees.

I got the idea for measuring the Reflux Ratio on my first use of the still. It was the operation of the still that inspired the idea of the measurement. I'm a retired research lab technician--my expertise is in machine design and control. So I'm experieinced in electronic circuit design, and just feeling the temperatures of the tubes coming from the water source, going from the product condenser, and exiting the reflux condenser reminded me of a resistor voltage divider. I played around with some very basic heat transfer equations and came up with the method I'm trying to implement.

M
joseph9936
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Re: Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by joseph9936 »

I do have a working still to automate but not going to try to contain the vapor by wash temperture. That will not work. I will be controlling the vapor temp either by controlling the water temp or controlling the flow and the water temp being at the same temperature each time I make a run. I'm using the Allen Bradley because I have the spare parts. I also have GE and Delta V but more AB parts laying around. One of the main reasons I am automating mine is because I am writing code for a micro still going in soon with a 30 foot tower. Im just doing mine because I get started so I can experiment a little and drink at the same time! lol I'm excited for input and will happily share my date in CSV format if anyone would like to see the data.....

Thank you for the plc link. I'm interested in see what cheap options are out there and see if I can compete in the off the shelf beer...Distillers controllers.
Joseph9936
Maritimer
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Re: Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by Maritimer »

Hey joseph,

What kind of still do you have? Do you have some pictures?

M
joseph9936
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Re: Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by joseph9936 »

typical mile high 2" two piece. stuffed with copper. Two 1500 watt electrical heaters. both to heat up quicker and I run one during the process. I keep my condensor <130 degrees to condensate and working on my tower vapors now. I hope to have my Therocouple card in soon so I can start playing around...
Maritimer
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Re: Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by Maritimer »

Hey joseph,

I checked out the Mile High stills. Seems they use cooling management to control reflux. Now I see why you want to replicate your runs and control the coolant temperature.

Have you used the still? How is it performing?

M
joseph9936
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Re: Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by joseph9936 »

I am using what I have to figure out how to get the same results. I am learning from all of you and asking lots of questions!lol I appreaciate the the input for sure....

joseph9936
Maritimer
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Re: Instantaneous RR Measurement Experiment 1

Post by Maritimer »

Hey joseph,

I think I understand cooling management now. You have two condensers: one above the column that condenses most of the vapour, allowing some to pass; and a second condenser that condenses what passes and becomes the product. Operation is quite finicky because the coolant temperature and flow rate determine how much vapour gets past the reflux condenser, and this determines the reflux ratio.

My proposed method of measuring the reflux ratio would work in this case, too. In fact, measuing the reflux ratio on a VM still is more for fun that necessity, but on a CM still, it could be the feature that makes operation as easy as a VM still.

In the case of a CM still, a desired RR would be the command signal for a closed loop servo. The controlled parameter would be the coolant flow rate, which can be controlled easily with a proportional valve.

It would be fun to work with you in implementing this.

M
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