Structured distillation column

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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markx
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Post by markx »

All bells and whistles included amounts to about 2.5m of height. The column itself accounts for 1.8m. The rest is boiler and reflux head.
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pothead
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Post by pothead »

WOW....that is way too tall for my house....
I was really looking forward to hearing more about this..I was under the impression you were scaling it down a notch ...like something someone could fit in their home :D .
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markx
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Post by markx »

Fits into my kitchen just about fine :lol:

OK....first attempt to run the setup was made yesterday. What a mess, every seal in the system leaked. I've gotta refab the seal surfaces and maybe find a softer material for the purpose (cork would be a good option but I don't know if I can find cork sheet). Teflon is way too hard to create a tight seal between the sections (unless I use unhumane force to tighten the sections).
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markx
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Post by markx »

Fixed the seal problem and I'm conducting a run as I type. On the first impression the separation seems to be better than with an ordinary random mesh packing. I loaded about 20L of water and 5,5L of 90% stripping run product into the boiler. Running on 2,2kW right now (full power of 3.2kW flooded the column because the bottom section was too tightly packed). After 0.5L the heads are beginning to fade and I can detect no hint of heavier stuff. With mesh packing the heavier goods always tended to carry over right after the heads. The takeoff rate is around 1L per hour. Seems to work beautiful so far. :D
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rezaxis
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Post by rezaxis »

How did you solve your sealing problems?
Shine on!
markx
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Post by markx »

Teflon tape did a tight job on the leaks.


But I was too optimistic about the tail notes not carrying over after the heads. It happened after about 300ml of the hearts had been taken off.....a distinct subnote of tails came over, exactly like with a mesh packed column. My only hope is to loosen the packing on the bottom section so I can run the tower on full power and maybe enhance the separation by the increased centrifugal force the vapours experience.
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pothead
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Post by pothead »

:cry:

I hope it works out.
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markx
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Post by markx »

I've gotta change the angle of the turbine blades since it turned out that i'ts not the bottom section that floods the column, but the turbine sections are responsible for that. Found out after gradually removing the packing from bottom section. Quite unexpected really.....I thought that the turbines restrict the flow of vapours much less than the copper mesh.
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pothead
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Post by pothead »

markx wrote:I've gotta change the angle of the turbine blades since it turned out that i'ts not the bottom section that floods the column, but the turbine sections are responsible for that. Found out after gradually removing the packing from bottom section. Quite unexpected really.....I thought that the turbines restrict the flow of vapours much less than the copper mesh.
Besides the fact that it creates more work for ya...isn't it a good thing that they restrict the flow nicely? It may be tricky to find the perfect angles for the turbines.
It would be nice to make them out of copper :D
"Be nice to America, or we'll bring democracy to your country."
"The best things in life aren't things."


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markx
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Post by markx »

Changing the angles isn't that much of a work compared to actually making the turbines out of a SS sheet one by one. I already changed the angles to more vertical (took about 1.5 hours of bending metal with pliers) and I'll test them tonight.
Besides the fact that it creates more work for ya...isn't it a good thing that they restrict the flow nicely?
Of course it's nice that the impellers restrict the vapour flow, but surprisingly they impart too much resistance for their apparent configuration.
It would be nice to make them out of copper
I like SS better than copper.... it's a rather eternal setup once completed. Copper on the other hand tends to corrode rather nicely under the conditions inside a still. Since I went through all the trouble of fabricating the impeller packs I'd like them to last as long as possible. And my eyes definately won't see the end of these packs. :lol:
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markx
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Post by markx »

Ok........I got it up and running at full steam. The change in impeller fin angles did the trick. No more flooding. The results of the first rectification run are as follows.


Input: 5.5L of stripping run product (not sure about ABV, near 90% )

Results: 0.6L heads, 4L hearts (1L/hour), 0.2L tails at rather low ABV



Separation dynamics is rather different compared to a mesh packed column. Rapidly achieves equilibrium (10min max after boiling begins). Very effectively knocks down the tail odours, although a slight note still persists (well, it's quite unaivoidable anyways). I've gotta carbon filter or run once more to get the hearts perfectly clean. With mesh packing I produced around 1L of tails with a comparable input volume of stripping run spirits on the rectification. So there's a remarkable improvement in the tail area :lol:

The downside is that the ABV drops a little compared to mesh packing (a few % below azeotrope) especially near the end of the run. Which is understandable since the packing is much less dense compared to mesh.


Well......to sum it all up........a rather nice improvement and an intresting experiment. 8)
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markx
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Post by markx »

Today I got a closer look at the first (the bottom one) turbine section of the commercial setup:

The inner diameter of the tube was 5.5cm.....mine is 5.7cm

Impellers had 16 blades per one plate (twice as many as mine) and the blades were perforated on the outer rim. A single 1.5mm hole on every one of the 16 blades.

The angles of the blades were considerably smaller compared to mine. Judging by eye at least 1/3 less horisontal compared to my blade angles. And the blades were shorter..... roughly cut 1.5cm in length from outer rim, the rest of the middle section was intact.

The plates were situated 4cm apart from each other and as far as I could see the lenght between the turbines was constant throughout the lenght of the section at hand.....mine are 1.5cm apart from each other. So in theory I can dump half of the turbines.

I'll try to get a closer look at the rest of the sections too....to make sure wheter there is any change in the placement and configuration of the turbines in the upper sections of the column. There's gotta be a reason for them sections to be numbered the way they are.


The power input is 3kW and takeoff rate is 2L/h when performing a rectifying run.
The 6kW that I mentioned in my first post applies to stripping runs. And 3L/h is the maximum takeoff rate when all 4 sections are assembled, but my friend only has 3 of them assembled due to height limitations.


Image

Image

Image
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rkr
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Post by rkr »

You should also note the large area in the middle of the turbine. In practice it will hold liquid and the whole thing will act a bit like a perforated plate.

2 liters/hour at 3kW and a long column is much closer to results you get with normal columns. Heck I can get almost 1 liter/hour @ 95.6% with my E-ARC running only at 700W.

Cheers, Riku
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Post by decoy »

Grats MarkX i take my hat of to you, and its not because:

your column looks bloody horny!
the fact that you have put shit loads of time into it.
there is some excellent craftsmanship in it!
or the fact that it works..

i have been reading the same posts on here about thermostats, condensors the size of peoples elements, and have been sick of it.

my grats go to you because you have had an idea outside the box and you have commited your self to testing/prooving it to no one else but you..

cheers..

and cheers on some fine work you have display'd..
at the end of the day i hope you have enjoyed just making it..
markx
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Post by markx »

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement Decoy :)
But I really can't take credit for the turbine packing idea.....it's not my invention but I'm trying to replicate and hopefully develop it further.

About enjoying the process of creation and sharing it.....definately.... fun and exciting. Counting the sands of time spent on creating it has no room nor meaning here :D
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Sinker
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Post by Sinker »

Very nice work. Thanks for sharing it with us.
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allen42
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by allen42 »

Here Here , Very nice work indeed !! ( I really have no idea what here here means but ya gotta admit it sounded darn good ) I was amazed at the design & the amout of work that has gone into it . Please tell me you did not do all of that work at home on your time alone !!! Teaseing ya , it Looks GREAT !!

Allen
manu de hanoi
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by manu de hanoi »

this is very interesting, in order to properly compare the 2 packings youchould "
-compare the bottom temp of the column using the 2 differents packings with the same reflux & power. The lower the temp, the best packing.
-pour some water on top the the 2 columns and compare the time it takes to reach the bottom, with one meter of nazi scrubbers it takes 4 seconds here.
-pour some water on top of the helix and try to see if there is no chanelling on the center

other comments :
1)The space between the turbines could be shortened it seems. A big space like yours means there is less ethanol held in the column which means your column is less stable.
2) There is more liquid on top of the column than in the bottom, what about having the scrubbers on top and the helix in the bottom ? I'm loosing sleep about that. Less liquid in the bottom means you can have tighter packing there, but that's on top of the column that you need to hold the ethanol .....
Last edited by manu de hanoi on Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
HookLine
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by HookLine »

nazi scrubbers
:?: :?: :?:
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.
Old_Blue
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by Old_Blue »

HookLine wrote:
nazi scrubbers
:?: :?: :?:
Hook wrote:
:?: :?: :?:

I write:
WTF :?: :?: :?: :?:

Never too old to learn I guess.
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manu de hanoi
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by manu de hanoi »

Old_Blue wrote:
HookLine wrote:
nazi scrubbers
:?: :?: :?:
Hook wrote:
:?: :?: :?:

I write:
WTF :?: :?: :?: :?:

Never too old to learn I guess.
oups sorry, I meant SS scrubber !!!
Just checking if anyone would read the post :D
HookLine
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by HookLine »

manu de hanoi wrote:oups sorry, I meant SS scrubber !!!
Just checking if anyone would read the post :D
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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CoopsOz
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by CoopsOz »

How the hell did a 18month old thread get resurrected? I was reading it thinking "I've seen this somewhere before".
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agent86
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by agent86 »

hey Im new to this but that thing looks like it is efficient
how would I determine the length and diameter of the condenser if I am going to fit it to a larger system
is there some simple formula for determining the correct size or cfm requirements

oh
nice job on the "turbines"
you can by sheet metal circles about two or three inches in diameter at the hardware store cheep
they seem like they would work for what you did with them
even have a hole in the middle already
markx
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by markx »

you can by sheet metal circles about two or three inches in diameter at the hardware store cheep
Ya.....they probably do sell such metal rings, but I highly doubt they fit into my column without any corrections. And in that case I have to do about the same amount of work :P
Anyways, through extensive testing, I have come to the conclusion that I need to build me a power adjuster and couple it to the boiler. This kind of packing only works at it's best when the column is in a semi-flooded state. Otherwise it does not justify itself over regular metal mesh. But reaching and keeping that semi-flooded state stable requires an adjustable power source. Well......keep ya posted :)
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firetech
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by firetech »

markx,

i am thinking of trying out your column design. I just found a 1-1/2 inch hydraulic circular puncher tool in our workshop. in the nearby scrapyard, i can get some gauge #20 stainless steel scraps. I am quite sure they are medical grade, since they were left overs from repairing autoclave hoods. Do you think this set-up will be efficient for a 1-1/2 inch column?
My existing column is 1m long with 95 cm packing, driven by a 1000 - watt hot plate.
This kind of packing only works at it's best when the column is in a semi-flooded state. Otherwise it does not justify itself over regular metal mesh.
So overdriving the column is the key to it's efficiency, any idea how much? I have a 2,500 - watt hot plate I use for stripping :wink: , I think this will do the job of flooding a 38 mm pipe. By the way, do you still use a scrubber/mesh packing at both ends of the column? Another thing, how long should the stator assembly should be, and their relative spacing? Thanks man!
markx
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by markx »

Do you think this set-up will be efficient for a 1-1/2 inch column?
I would go a bit lager than 1.5inches.......it's a b***h to build and the gain from a small column aint worth the trouble, but if you wish to experiment then go ahead :)
So overdriving the column is the key to it's efficiency, any idea how much?
The column has to be on the verge of flooding itself. When in the right mode it sounds as if sand is poured down the column, if it starts to gurgle and surge then too much power is applied and the column floods itself......determining the correct power setting requires a an adjustable power source and experimentation and it varies with different setups.
I have a 2,500 - watt hot plate I use for stripping , I think this will do the job of flooding a 38 mm pipe.
A 2500W hotplate will certainly flood your 38mm column, but complete flooding is not what we are after.
By the way, do you still use a scrubber/mesh packing at both ends of the column? Another thing, how long should the stator assembly should be, and their relative spacing? Thanks man!
I use scrubber packing in the bottom sections of the column......upper section is structured. The lenght of the assembly is of no critical significance. Just use dimensions that are convenient to deal with and fit your setup. The spacers between the turbines of my column are 1.5cm in lenght.......meaning that I can adjust the spacing in 1.5cm steps
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firetech
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by firetech »

Thanks for the added info. I might start this project on a 50 mm SS pipe, as soon as my work load clears up a bit. Any ways, happy experimenting to all.
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Re: Structured distillation column

Post by snuffy »

markx wrote:
The column has to be on the verge of flooding itself. When in the right mode it sounds as if sand is poured down the column, if it starts to gurgle and surge then too much power is applied and the column floods itself......determining the correct power setting requires a an adjustable power source and experimentation and it varies with different setups.
I've been looking at this thread for a year and it finally clicked. Riku nailed it in his earlier comment: this thing runs like a sieve plate still. They have a narrow band of vapor flow that they operate in. And they all use some form of power management (and usually cooling management as well).

There was an early cooling management still that used curved plates called the Pistorius Machine. The idea was to spread the liquid out thin so it had lots of surface area. The same sort of thing is happening with this design. Requires tuning, but so do pianos.
Time's a wasting!!!
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