Flute tryout

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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Pelson
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Flute tryout

Post by Pelson »

Hi guys,

I've been studying abroad and finally have my degree (you can call me 'master' now) so I have sh*t loads of time, so I finally decided to have a go at a flute build.
I made a 42mm reflux column (vapor control) before, and it works pretty neat, but usually, using a 40L batch, I have to put it on for more than 24h... so a flute would be awesome.

Now, I've tried to read as much as I can already (and am still reading) but still I have some questions. I thought it would be cool to start a new topic since then I could make a follow-up of the build for those who are interested.

But first questions:

1) I understand perforated plates have the best performance/reliability/ease of construction relation... As far as I've looked, I've never found a calculation for the surface of plate vs surface of holes. Can this be calculated or is it more arbitrarily? How about the diameter of the holes - I assume that the bigger the wholes, the more pressure you need in your boiler to prevent 'leaking of liquid'. So... the smaller the better? (small holes can cover more surface as well).

2) Is there a calculation possibility for the height of the liquid on every plate (and thus also the distance between plates), or is this also arbitrarily? I assume there must be a minimum level, since otherwise you would not get enough heat transfer from your gas to your liquid...

3) Is there actually a pressure gradient - difference between the plates? I had a discussion about this with a friend. He claimed that the pressure dropped after each plate because you 'loose' gas. I thought the pressure would be the same since you essentially have the same amount (height) of liquid on each plate.

4) Can you calculate the pressure needed in the boiler for a perfect plate fill. (so no empty plates, and no drowning plates) or is it more a matter of getting to know your rig. (And is that the only function of the viewing glasses - apart from the artistic point - to see if your plates aren't overflowing?) I assume it can be controled by defleg and burner control.

5) I have two possibilities... Or I make a 54mm (2.12inch) diameter column that has easily available couplings, or I use a 100mm (4inch) drainage tube (also in copper) but that will make it harder to build couplings as they don't really make them. Is there a benefit on the bigger one? Things I thought of: larger capacity, quicker, more badass...

If you rather have me post this somewhere else, let me know. If you know a thread where I may find answers, just link me... I didn't have time to read all of the 160pages of the 'Flute talk' yet :egeek:

Thanks a lot for info! Can't wait to start building.
Last edited by Pelson on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Prairiepiss »

I didn't have time to read all of the 160pages of the 'Flute talk' yet
Then you don't have time to build one. You should take the time and read it. Along with the numerous other threads about it. You will learn a lot more by reading that thread. Then you would if someone was to spoon feed you the answers.
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Re: Flute tryout

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True true... I'm working on it I tell ya!

Will I - eventually - find an answer to all my questions? Cause I don't think a lot about calculations has been said before. After using the search engine on "Flute Calculation" not much popped up, therefor my question.

But I'll keep up the reading. (kinda sad, now there's finally good weather :think: )
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Prairiepiss »

That thread is all about developing a perforated plate still for home use. Do yourself the favor and just bite the bullet. I've read it at least 4 times. And every time I read it I learn something new. You should also look for emptyglass's build thread. Along with OD's other threads. The answers you need are all there. along with other info that is needed.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by googe »

+1, all the questions you asked can be found easily, just takes time and patients mate. All of us that have built them have been through what you are. It's frustrating at first but like pp said you need to find the answers yourself, you will be very greatfull at the end because you will know how every parts works because you've studied.it and built it. When we get told how to do something without research it's like trying to operate a piece of machinery we have no idea about. They are easy to make once you get some practice. The hardest parts are the fiddly little bit you didn't think of. Take your time and think.twice before proceeding with any process of it. Bigger is better, windows are good but not necessary. Good luck mate.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Odin »

Sound advice from both Googe and Mr. P, I would say.

Gent, Belgium? Now that is a nice city! And some interesting distilleries like Filliers not too far off ...

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Pelson »

Odin wrote:Gent, Belgium? Now that is a nice city! And some interesting distilleries like Filliers not too far off ...
Yup, and just graduated as a chemist, so maybe I should pay them a visit sooner or later :wink:

I'm sorry to appear a bit 'lazy' (which I am totally absolutely not) and to ask these questions. I do know the whole working principle behind the column, I just thought there weren't real calculations etc. yet. But I'm on the job! When I built my fractionating column I also did a lot of research first and indeed, it proofs to be worth it.
Thanks for the thumbs up tho! I'll report back when I'm done reading and started drawing / building!

We will meet again 8)
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Odin »

I don't want to consume too much of your time, since you have a flute to build ...

;)

... but you should visit Filliers. Great place! And please say hi to Pedro from me, if you meet him.

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Andy Capp »

The Filliers distillery tour looks very inviting. :ewink:
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by googe »

No wonder Odin thinks it's a great place! :lol: wonder which or is Pedro? :wtf:
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Odin »

Yeah, well, unfortunately, Pedro did not share these angels with me!

Man, I am pissed!

:lolno:

I didn't know this picture, Andy, where did you find it?

I hope it is just the first one of the performance they call "Stripping Run".

If so, please direct me to the other picture!

;)

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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Andy Capp »

Got the pic from this website http://partyyourpicture.be/pictures/filliers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Some chic won a photo shoot with friends. Reckon all distilleries should do the same. :D
The original pic BTW makes a great wallpaper. :ebiggrin:
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by googe »

If you really get stuck on something after you've researched don't hesitate to ask though, plenty of knowledgeable people here that would love to see another bubbler built :thumbup: . I know there was a few things I had to ask that I just couldn't get my head around!.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by emptyglass »

Sorry to say Pelson, but as you know, there are no short cuts to knowledge.

Or should that be wisdom?

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Pelson »

Nice one Emptyglass...

I'm reading and reading... I've learned some more, but some of my questions remain unanswered still. I did learn how to piss off other members, but as I do not intend to do that, I won't go over that here.

While reading all the stuff about the bottom plate not bubbling (I'm only at p.40 now, so if the one true answer comes later don't blame me), it got me thinking.

OD wrote he used 1/8" downcomers whereas Spooky used bigger ones. What I've been thinking was that maybe the volume of liquid in the lowest downcomer (the bent one) was too small, and that it evaporated because of heat from the boiler. (Remember, the gasses rising from the boiler should boil just at a slightly higher temperature then the liquid on the plate). So I figured that, if the amount of liquid in the downcomer is too small it might just evaporate, giving rise to a 'free path' for the rising gasses. When then the amount of reflux increases (later in the run, when the abv in your boiler lowers) the downcomer gets filled quicker then the liquid evaporates, thus making the plate work, and bubble.

Would this be a possible explanation? (I do get it right if I think that there was liquid on the plate, but no bubbles?)

(Also: Still haven't found calculations on open space vs. plate surface vs. height of liquid vs. distance between plates. I want math!)
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Pelson »

And also I haven't found a consensus on the amount of plates. I figure that the more plates, the more neutral your spirits will be, but given the flutes already built an average of 4 to 6 plates gives nice abv's with plenty of taste, so I was thinking of going for 5 plates.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Odin »

For maximum taste 4 is the standard.

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Re: Flute tryout

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Okay, I'm done reading... kinda.

I googled some column calculations but they were a bit too complex to comprehend without an engineering background (I should've become a chemical engineer instead of just a chemist :egeek: )

So the plan is to build a 100mm 5 plate perforated column (2,5mm perforations) using 12mm downcomers. With 120 perforations the open Area over Plate area is a bit under 8%. 10cm between plates, plates mounted to column (no tree). 20mm of liquid on the plates (=height of downcomer on plate, would this be too much? it means +- 760mL of liquid in column).

I'm wondering for the deflegmator. I have some 80mm tubing left. I would use it to build a slide-in shotgun defl., but this would mean there's 9mm or so on each side of the defl. I suppose this is no problem since then I would only enlarge the total cooling surface (gasses could, apart from flowing through the defl also flow next to it). I'm just worrying about pressure compared between the passing aside the shotgun and passing through it. But I suppose when using 22mm holes in the shotgun this would be the "preferred" path of the gasses. It will save me money on 100mm tube.

I will send the plates to be laser-cut for ease of working. So a snug fit should be ensured.I have an 80L boiler - gas powered.

I'm also playing with the idea to couple a temp-sensor to an Arduino board and use an electric valve for cooling control, but that's just an idea for now. First get the build going.

whatta ya think?
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by googe »

You must have been busy reading :lol: . I've never done perf plates but think the norm is 1.5 mm although there's a few tyring bigger like yours I've read on other forums, I think empty might have tried bigger?. And Harley?. With the deflag, how will you seal it in there?. I can't see why it wouldn't work, only thing would be not enough coolent on the outer wall could cause vapor to escape, I guess it's one of them things you have to try to see. You'd need to work out the volume of the 22Mm's and compare the volume to the 4' minus the 3', you'll be surprised at the volume of an open area compared to single.multi tubes. I use a 3' deflag with 5, 19mm inner tubes and works we'll, but I've got reducers on each end. My plates are 12cm apart but I.think alot do 10~12cm. With having fixed plates, you need to work.out if you ever want to.do whiskies or rum, you'll need to disable some.plates?. Good luck mate.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by wv_cooker »

Pelson you are on the right track but you still need to complete your reading. You are correct that the answer to the plate emptying comes a few pages later and you are close but you need the real reason. OD was the originator of the flutes and you really need to read his magic flute thread as well. He also designed the MKII and there is a massive amount of info in that thread. As for the plates it was decided that 8 - 10% surface area was correct for the holes but you might want to read the last page of the flute thread just to see the info there. There are also many other good threads about Flute builds with good info. So I would suggest slow down just a little do a little more reading and build the best one you can to start with. The info is all there and the reading will give you a much better education than college did. Not being a smart ass or derogatory, just there is a world of knowledge in those threads. Hope this helps.
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Re: Flute tryout

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wv_cooker wrote:Not being a smart ass or derogatory, just there is a world of knowledge in those threads.
No hard feelings cooker, and i'm still reading! I'm just started drawing and designing. It's not the final thing yet. The stupid-ish thing with the threads is that, next to a lot of usefull info, they also contain a lot of BS... and sometimes it's hard to see the forest through the trees (Okay, that might be an expression only used in Dutch).

After a while it's really tiresome reading through all the congratulations, likes and sadly also insults and looking for the essentials. I know this sounds kinda lazy but believe me.. I've been reading practically non-stop the past days :crazy:

I've already been through the flute builds of KY, Spooky and some parts of OD, and I'm almost halfway the Flute talk thread (in 3 days..... I utterly have no life).
I just thought it wouldn't hurt to start designing... I'll only be able to build after the 22nd (I do have a life) so...
googe wrote:With the deflag, how will you seal it in there?
I'll just keep the whole 100mm tube in one piece and make holes for water inlet in the side. To save on copper (and due to a lack of supply) I'll just hard solder a plate to seal the column on top, and make a sideway 22mm tube as take-off. (I hope this will be big enough, but I think so)

As for plate disabling: that's something I imagined I could do later. I can always make an external plate disabling-tube (with valves). The main problem is that it's kinda hard to get tri-clamps and other stuff that fits the 100mm tube around here. So I would go for a kinda minimal design. (as for now also no sight glasses... --> so cooker, you might be right that I should get the whole thing perfect if I won't be able to see what happens)
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by googe »

Sounds like you've got some good ideas going :thumbup: . Good luck mate.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by emptyglass »

Nice idea on the reflux condenser, it should work, but I wouldn't do it that way just because of money. What you save using some 80mm tube you will spend at the plate punchers.
I've not had much luck finding someone here to laser cut copper. Their lasers are not grunty enough to cope with the heat loss in copper. I have heard of it done, so its possible.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by thecroweater »

If you want to build it treeless why not consider 100mm to 80mm tee pieces and go 100% modular. Just put ferrules on all the tee ends and use tri clamps to join it and hold the sight glass in place, may end up cheaper better and much easier to build :wink:
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Re: Flute tryout

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So guess what... I am digging up the plans again...
Been in and out of the country a lot and got a lot of reaction to my "automate distillation" topic so I figured maybe building a bigger still was a better idea hahah!

Anyway, I've got a design running and ordering parts and stuff.

Just had one little question. Has anybody tried a flute with a gin bucket on top before?
If I build it in (it will just be a small piece of tube to hang the herbs in) I'm assuming it would be best to hang it above the deflegmator, right?

I am wondering if the oils from the herbs will mess with the functionality of the perforated plates (they would change viscosity and surface tension).
Curious how it'll turn out.

I'll post some pictures of the designs and then as soon as I got the parts I'll get building.


As always constructive criticism is welcome.
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by thecroweater »

Yes they will , if you just want a simple botanical basket a more sensible placement would be between the Lynne arm and product condenser. What I'm doing is having one there the same length as my reflux module which is under the reflux condenser and that way my plumbing and take of hight will all be unaffected. Only down sides to this option are that the spirit needs to be ran and cut first so as not to loose all your flavours to faints and the other thing to watch is how much you van run before the botanicals are exhausted and require switching out. This is a simple cheap option, carter heads don't have these issues but are not simple or cheap .
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Pelson »

Thanks for that info!

For my gins I used to do two distillations (one to go from mash to "crude liquor", and then a second one with herbs to go from "crude" to gin) I totally forgot about faints, head ans tails... Interesting!

Do you think I could build in a 3-way valve to tap off heads, then send hearts through a Carter-style bucket and then possibly run tails through the other system again? That would require some well thought through plumbing though!

Or I could not build a gin bucket into the flute and just do a second pot still run with the herbs hanging in the kettle (like I used to do). Thoughts?
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Pelson »

My design so far. I'm making them in Sketch Up as it makes it easier for the copper-guys to see what I'm expecting ;)
(sorry but the forum isn't able to determine the dimensions of the image since they come straight from my google drive, so it'll have to be links)

Column:
column

Plates:
sieve plate

Shotgun defleg (I know the top plate should go to the top, otherwise there'll be a layer of liquid on top of it...):
defleg

Tree:
plate tree

Can't wait to order the parts! (but still got some designing to do.. hahah!)
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Pelson »

What do you think of this:

Gin bucket design:
Gin bucket
Gasses come down, go up through sieved plate (blue one), through and go out on the side

Then the majestic idea:
valve craziness
You could switch the gasflow to either go through the bucket or straight to the condensor...

Looks feasible to build... Don't know if it's too much bling bling for not a lot of merit...

Edit: made a full design as well:
Just a thought

The two places where tubes come together need valves, but those were kinda hard to draw in Sketch Up :shock:
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Re: Flute tryout

Post by Yummyrum »

Bloody hell pelson you started this thread about 4 years ago andyou are still at the planing stage .
Pull finger :D

I don't like the idea of the two 3 way valves . Unless you interlock the handle so there is no possibility of cutting off the output from the main column .

Anyways get cracking
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