Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

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Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by skow69 »

Some of you will remember that I have been uncomfortable with this notion of the aquatic environment, aka fluidized bed. Well buckle up. Here we go again.

Last time we met I had made a video showing reflux dancing on top of the packing in my column. We talked about things like flash boiling the reflux and how deep it could penetrate into the packing.

Since then I repacked the column, considerably tighter. I took all of the existing packing, 45 inches of it, and compressed it to 38 inches. And I put a 6 inch old-school scrubber on top for a total of 44 inches. I could breathe through it, but I had to play like the big bad wolf to do it. Even though the column was packed tighter overall the top half turned out to be more open, easier to see into.

I fired up and when she started to boil I watched the leading edge of the vapor rise through the column just like usual. I was watching the reflux pour onto the packing and waiting for the dance to start when something different happened. Another boundary interface line rose out of the boiler and started up the column, way slower than the vapor, like 2 or 3, maybe 4 seconds per inch. As it rose I could see waves come up behind it, at vapor speed. They would catch up to the slow line and disappear. The slow line was the liquid level (previously known as flood level) climbing the column. The waves were bubbles of vapor boiling out of the pot.

The liquid level rose to the top of the packing and then slowly grew into the familiar dancing geysers. I had previously described a "boiling action" always and only in the top 1 inch of packing. I now recognize that as the waves of vapor coming from the boiler. It would seem that last time, there was not enough liquid density below the top inch to break the vapor stream into discrete bubbles.

This time, at least, the entire phenomenon has nothing to do with reflux flash boiling or penetration depth. It's all about vapor bubbles bursting through the surface of a flooded column, just like farts in a bathtub. The only difference (that I am aware of) between this setup and the previous is the significantly denser packing. The difference between the top down fluidized bed and the bottom up aquatic environment is the packing density. Which is exactly what Odin said, sort of. That's why it is associated with SPP, because just replacing your scrubbies with SPP instantly increases your packing density by a buttload. But it's not the weight of SPP. You can do the same thing with the right kind of lightweight scrubbies, cut to the right size, and packed in tight. Anyway, that's my theory on this day at this hour. Next run will be real live honest-to-God SPP, so I'll probably have a whole new set of flakey ideas.

More fun facts:
The power required to stablize the flood appeared to be about 75 watts less than previous, but I wouldn't commit to it on the basis of a single trial. Time will tell. Vapor temp at the head normally runs at 173. This time it was 170. Interesting, but same caveat as above.

It turned out that there was too much pressure in the boiler, so I shut down, removed the
6" old school scrubbie, and fluffed up the top foot or so of packing. On restart, the flood grew from the bottom, just the same. Temp ran 171. Here's the video.

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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by firewater69 »

Cool vid skow, it's really awesome to see what's going on in there.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by DAD300 »

Great vid...glass kicks asssssssss....

When you talk about the difference in the mass of scrubbies vs SPP, I had that all weighed once, it is like 8 ounces per liter vs 3.7 pounds per liter, or 1:7

That video def shows the need for the extra area at the top.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Kegg_jam »

Cool.

After your last post I was so close to ordering some borosilicate tubing. But then i thought about it too long and cooler minds prevailed.

So damn. now your making me want to hit the order button again.

What size tubing is that and how is it attached at the boiler? Is this more for experimentation or as your full time rig?
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by DAD300 »

So, skow69, I had to go off and think about the pulsing.

My columns are SS and I've never seen inside of mine, obviously. But I have heard the pulsing, only in the 4" version.

When it was pulsing, I also believe I heard it dropping liquid back to the boiler at the end of each pulse. Like in the cycle, the weight of the liquid is creating pressure? The vapor forces the lifting of the liquid? But then it seems to settle down as the top floods and boils. Maybe because the weight on top reached a point and was enough to stop the pulsing.

So, as the pulsing starts, I tried slowing to stop the pulsing and it did. ABV stayed solid.

And I've tried adding power and it also stopped the pulsing, but abv suffered slightly. Maybe 2% off azeo. I assume this created some pressure between the takeoff and reflux condenser and blew some vapor through to takeoff.

Does any of that sound like what you witnessed?
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by humbledore »

What a bizarre and extremely cool visual. It's almost like a shockwave flying upward.

Thanks Skow.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Hound Dog »

Seriously cool vid Skow. I had always packed my columns tighter than traditionally described when using mesh. I found that smaller lava rock yielded better results than larger too because of the dense packing. My next step is to see what the two bags of SPP will bring. Being able to see the results is cool. I don't know what to think of the pulsing though.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Jacksonbrown »

That pulse looks to me like the liquid dropping rather that the gas racing up (a bit of chicken and egg maybe?)
Ever had a good look at a good glass of Guinness after its poured? Its actually a very similar scenario to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzmt_X_yPdM

I think the gas is holding up the liquid in the packing to a point where it breaks through then the liquid dumps down.
I would be after something a bit more stable, personally. Do you stuff the packing in with something the same size as the column i.e. not a broom handle?
The reason I ask is, could it be a different density concentrically?
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Kegg_jam »

I made a stainless bubble bowl of sorts to try this out. Here is a pick of some aquatic action in some marbles.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1425561482.586495.jpg
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ImageUploadedByTapatalk1425561428.453658.jpg
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Brutal »

That is cool lookin'! Interesting thread Skow.

I think that racing "shock wave" looking bubble is the result of pressure. In the boiler the vapor has to overcome not only the resistance of the packing in the column, but also that of the liquid bed in the column. Alcohol doesn't have as much surface tension as water but through fine gaps it is probably significant. The weight of the liquid in the column has to be lifted through those fine gaps to allow expansion. Because of this resistance it takes pressure above ambient to push vapor up the column. Maybe it's 0.5-1.0 psi. As that pressure builds the boiling point of the boiler charge rises slightly. At the moment the vapor gets pushed up the column the pressure is reduced and the boiling point comes back down, releasing more vapor from the wash. The vapor that has just entered the column will be significantly hotter, and less dense than any of the liquids there, and will rise through it faster and faster as there is less resistance the higher it goes. If I am right, the effect of it is to give the whole length of the column a quick dose of heat as it moves up, and the vapor that makes it above the packing has effectively bypassed it and brought lower abv content up high in the column.

It is too damn early in the morning to be thinking like this.. It's thoughts like this that make me happy to just run a thumper and have a beer.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by T-Pee »

Brutal wrote:I think that racing "shock wave" looking bubble is the result of pressure. In the boiler the vapor has to overcome not only the resistance of the packing in the column, but also that of the liquid bed in the column.
I agree, fwiw.

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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Hound Dog »

What Brutal is saying makes sense.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Jacksonbrown »

Brutal wrote:It's thoughts like this that make me happy to just run a thumper and have a beer.
:D That's kinda funny. So why does your thumper 'thump'?
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Brutal »

Jacksonbrown wrote:
Brutal wrote:It's thoughts like this that make me happy to just run a thumper and have a beer.
:D That's kinda funny. So why does your thumper 'thump'?
Because it's hot and stuff..
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by T-Pee »

Jacksonbrown wrote:
Brutal wrote:It's thoughts like this that make me happy to just run a thumper and have a beer.
:D That's kinda funny. So why does your thumper 'thump'?
Probably for the same reason.

tp (and JBs leading question)
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by skow69 »

This is great! Lots of response and diverse ideas.

Keg Jam--glass tube is spec'ed by the O.D. and wall thickness. This is 2" x .250 wall, which makes a loose fit inside 2" copper pipe. The 1/4" wall is overkill. I would get 1/8 or maybe 3/16. The MOST IMPORTANT thing I learned is to spend the money for American/European boro. The cheap Chinese stuff sometimes doesn't get annealed. I watched a stick of 2" spontaneously crack and fall apart just laying on a shelf.

Connections are made with 2" wide silicone tape and hose clamps. I build up the glass to match the diameter of the copper, and make 2 separate 360* wraps around the joint, seams staggered, and cinch it down with worm drive screw clamps. A short piece of 2" radiator hose might work as well. They seal great as long as you're careful and maintain them.

This is my only column still. I use it 2 or 3 times a month.


DAD -- I can't say that I have seen quite what you're describing. The flooded column definitely creates pressure. I had to shut down that time because the boiler seal failed. I don't think the vapor lifts the liquid at all, except for something like the thin film membrane of a bubble, thinking of a fart in the bathtub. I don't think it has enough surface tension, the vapor just pushes it aside and goes through. Although it has enough surface tension to force the vapor into discrete bubbles. I've been guessing that pressure from my 44" of packing would be around 22 in. water column (0.8 psi) based on the WAG that it is half full of liquid and half vapor. I'd really like to measure it, but I'm not quite curious enough to drill an extra hole in the boiler.

I'm with you on the pulsing sound, but the time lag for response to changes of heat input is enormous, like 3 - 5, maybe 10 minutes. (Electric water heater elements.) I can't place any sound except boiling at the boiler. I do hear a pulsing gurgling when I run the flood up too high, but that is definitely coming from the top.


I've made one run with my new "Big Swede" SPP. The good news is it's way more porous (I think that's the word I want) so the action is very easy to see. I'll be making another run in a few days and I promise to make a decent video for once that actually shows what I'm trying to describe.

I tapped the column a few times but didn't get the packing as tight as I have been. I got the liquid to clime the column and dance on top, but I couldn't hold it. I kept 3-4" of bubbling fluidized bed in the packing on top and dancing geysers above it. Below that the flood level slowly receded, spent the first half or so of the run with 1-2 feet of aquatic environment directly above the boiler. It gradually sank and disappeared. Then, when the tails showed up, it suddenly appeared again and climbed all the way to the top in about 30 seconds. Damndest thing. Granted, I had the power turned up, but not enough to account for that.

Anyway, I'm thinking that the boiler is the natural place for the aquatic environment to eminate from, and the reflux entering the packing at the top makes for more liquid density there which fosters the fluidized bed. In between is just too dry unless you drive it hard enough to push sufficient mass out of the boiler. Power input is limited to the amount that makes too much liquid above the packing, worst case being liquid shooting out the vent. Leaving more head space above the packing doesn't seem to help. I left a full foot of visible head space and flooded it easily. I will pack it tighter next run. I'll bet that will let me keep a stable full length flood.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by skow69 »

Brutal wrote:I think that racing "shock wave" looking bubble is the result of pressure. In the boiler the vapor has to overcome not only the resistance of the packing in the column, but also that of the liquid bed in the column. Alcohol doesn't have as much surface tension as water but through fine gaps it is probably significant. The weight of the liquid in the column has to be lifted through those fine gaps to allow expansion. Because of this resistance it takes pressure above ambient to push vapor up the column. Maybe it's 0.5-1.0 psi. As that pressure builds the boiling point of the boiler charge rises slightly. At the moment the vapor gets pushed up the column the pressure is reduced and the boiling point comes back down, releasing more vapor from the wash. The vapor that has just entered the column will be significantly hotter, and less dense than any of the liquids there, and will rise through it faster and faster as there is less resistance the higher it goes. If I am right, the effect of it is to give the whole length of the column a quick dose of heat as it moves up, and the vapor that makes it above the packing has effectively bypassed it and brought lower abv content up high in the column.
I'm with you up until that last statement. That would deny the mingling and reboiling that goes on in a packed column that results in stacking the fractions. I think the vapor that pops out the top is actually not the same vapor that came out of the boiler. The low ABV vapor from the pot mingled, condensed, reboiled and got replaced by higher ABV vapor all along the way. It just happened so quickly that we can't see it. I think this whole aquatic environment thing is based on the idea that forcing the vapor to rise through a volume of "total" or "pure" liquid (as opposed to drops clinging to the packing) amounts to the maximum possible mingling. We know that the efficiency of a packed column increases with the amount of reflux because there is more opportunity for mingling. (Love that word.) The aquatic environment is the upper limit, the best case scenario. In fact, the column would probably work even better if we could keep it full of liquid without any packing, but it's looking like the packing, actually the very dense packing, is necessary to fill and maintain the column full of liquid. As evidence I can tell you that running like this I can't get off azeotrope.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by googe »

I think your onto it brutal, if the packing was uniform the entire length of the column, it would be hard to see the wave, with the power in managed right. Because its got light packing, heavy packing etc etc, its going from.high speed to low to high etc etc. pressure differences will be visible in a unstable environment, like a high pressure weather system going to a low pressure system with a fast baro drop, you see the stronge wind, if its gradul drop you don't notice it so much. What you need is it packed at a density that gradually allows the vapor to hold back the fluid at a pace that enables slow enough equilibrium, if you could be defined enough I can't see why you couldn't have heat input at one power setting and output at another. Compression. Great vid skow.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Brutal »

You may be right Skow. I was assuming because of the speed and pressure change those fast bubbles were hotter and would make it through. But they are contacting a whole lot of packing and cool(er) liquid. If they had just a bit more time I'm sure they would convert. The way those look it seems they would work against you.

On to what googe is saying, do you have a way to rig that column up with just a sieve plate at the bottom? It could be made into an aquatic environment purely! It would have to be without a drain (in the plate) and I'm not sure how easy that would be to control. Would love to see how well it works though. Also would love to see it run full of marbles!
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Kegg_jam »

Brutal wrote: On to what googe is saying, do you have a way to rig that column up with just a sieve plate at the bottom? It could be made into an aquatic environment purely! It would have to be without a drain (in the plate) and I'm not sure how easy that would be to control. Would love to see how well it works though. Also would love to see it run full of marbles!
I was thinking the same thing. It would be cool to see a comparison of marbles and lava rock as well.

One thing I noticed in my little bowl was that once the flooding state was under way that the power could be dialed back considerably and still be able to maintain the aquatic state.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

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Brutal wrote: On to what googe is saying, do you have a way to rig that column up with just a sieve plate at the bottom? It could be made into an aquatic environment purely! It would have to be without a drain (in the plate) and I'm not sure how easy that would be to control. Would love to see how well it works though. Also would love to see it run full of marbles!
Sieve plate at the bottom to "slow" the serge, even the boiler pressure and hold the liquid from dropping back to boiler. I heard that somewhere....

I have scrubbie at the bottom of the 2" & 3" and an SD Gin screen at the bottom of the 4". The screen may be more open than the compacted scrubbie. This may be why my 2" & 3" don't drain back to the boiler and the 4" does.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

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DAD300 wrote:
Brutal wrote: On to what googe is saying, do you have a way to rig that column up with just a sieve plate at the bottom? It could be made into an aquatic environment purely! It would have to be without a drain (in the plate) and I'm not sure how easy that would be to control. Would love to see how well it works though. Also would love to see it run full of marbles!
Sieve plate at the bottom to "slow" the serge, even the boiler pressure and hold the liquid from dropping back to boiler. I heard that somewhere....

I have scrubbie at the bottom of the 2" & 3" and an SD Gin screen at the bottom of the 4". The screen may be more open than the compacted scrubbie. This may be why my 2" & 3" don't drain back to the boiler and the 4" does.
I was actually thinking of the plate holding up 2+ feet of liquid bed with nothing in it. I wonder if it would perform better or worse than flooded packing.

Y'all are going to get me to actually build a reflux rig. Dammit.

@Dad how long should a 4" packed section be for a keg boiler on feints/low wines?
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by DAD300 »

My SPP is being held up by this 50% screen.
SD Disk.jpg
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I have a 24" section and 22" of SPP and 2" of scrubbie gets ~92%, from 10% wash at 1:1 reflux. It could get azeo with more reflux. Or the second section would assure it. For an experiment, here's the bad part...it takes a gallon of SPP to fill a 4" x 24" spool.

I thought the 48" would stop the surge, but it doesn't. I can't make it suspend all the liquid (Aquatic Environment). It surges and dumps half to boiler, fills and dumps to boiler, ...delivering azeo at a quart every 6 minutes, but filling and dumping all the while.

I expect to stop the surge with more power, or restricting the opening between boiler and column. I also think the surge problem would be fixed with a bigger boiler. Another fix would be to raise the vapor speed/quantity just to the point to suspend the AE.

In the video skow69 provided, I believe that when the surge collapses it is dropping liquid back to the boiler.

If you use the more power route...you have to have enough room between top of packing and takeoff to allow for a violent boil to take place on top. I expect humbledore will get this after seeing the video. He flinched when I said more power.

The other problem is when I use the 48", I have the surge, get nothing but azeo at 1:1 and at 5,000 watts, keg boiler, run is over in 30 minutes. I haven't learned to run it...Odin warned of this...that SPP "hadn't" worked correctly at the hobby scale in a 4" column.

Put a 4" x 48" SPP packed column on a 100 gallon boiler, 20,000watts, lots of vapor and you'd be a vodka making fool! I mean theoretically, someday,...money...DSP...
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by Brutal »

If you weren't running spp would you still suggest a 4"x24" column? I want to use an adapter from the 2" on my keg to go up to the 4" section, then another with a sight glass to go back down to 2" for the PC/vapor take off tee. I figure running like this it will be easy to wedge a copper scrubbie in the bottom reducer and fill above it with whatever.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by DAD300 »

No, any other packing and the 36"-48" is probably min.

Packing is a weird thing for me now...I love my SPP. Don't think there is anything better...but I made a 3" x 36" and really stuffed the scrubbers in and it made azeo at 1:1 reflux.

People prove you can make azeo with six plates and a lot of reflux. But having 20 plates is easy and fast with SPP.
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Post by skow69 »

I think I have fostered some wrong impressions. There is no surging going on in my flooded column, nothing collapses. Once it is loaded, the liquid in the column stays in the column and it doesn't need anything (besides the packing) to hold it up. The only place I see anything like a pulse is when it breaks through the top.

Picture the column full of water to the top of the packing and static, like a big test tube. Now picture 6 or 8 bubbles in it, 1 inch tall, evenly spaced, about 6 inches apart. Now put them in motion, from bottom to top, and a new one enters every 6 inches. That is what it's doing. The motion is fluid, steady, and smooth, like a train on a track, or FARTS in a BATHTUB.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by SassyFrass »

Ok, the glass column is probably one of the coolest things I've seen. It might last 5 minutes at my place. :problem: But I doubt if it would remain unbroken that long. :esad:
I know my limitations...most of 'em. :thumbup:
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by carbohydratesn »

Hey DAD3000, have you tried really packing the SPP tightly in there, like you did with the scrubbers? I was having trouble maintaining a fluidized bed until I tried packing it extremely tightly. Had to push down on the packing while bouncing the column on a rubber mat, dropping it (gently) a few inches each time. Without pushing, the packing itself just bounces. With pushing, it gets packed a little tighter each bounce :)

Just barely squeezed it all in there, but it worked great. Maintaining the partial flooding was very easy with the packing that tight.

It could be a different story with a 3'' or 4'' column, though, mine is only 2''.
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T-Pee
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Re: I Need to Make Better Videos

Post by T-Pee »

skow69 wrote:The motion is fluid, steady, and smooth, like... FARTS in a BATHTUB.
Makes perfect sense now!

tp
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skow69
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Re: Environmentally Aquatic Fluidized Bedding

Post by skow69 »

Or a choo-choo train.

Thanks t pee. 'Bout time somebody picked up on the imagery.
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
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