Short fat packed columns

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Short fat packed columns

Post by shadylane »

Here's a quote from a post by mash rookie that got me to thinking. Can a short, fat packed CM column do the same job of the 3 or 4 plate column ?

[quote="mash rookie"]. Although certainly not as efficient as a very tall column. I think we have long established that there is fractioning happening in shorter columns as shown by our ability to not just remove them in order, but by imperial evidence of the superiority of packing over the same size plated column when it come to flavor separation. While I agree with your escalator analogy, and agree they are coming off in order but argue that the fractions are too mixed and close to only have one in a column at a time. In fact it is more difficult to stabilize a shorter column and keep it stabilized as fractions are removed.
I argue, (and think you agree) that the difficulty is caused by excessive vapor speed. The vapor is not allowed to linger and enjoy multiple evaporation cycles. (partial pressure orgasms)
Keeping a column equilibrium stabile is key for steady consistent removal of fractions as they occur.
I personally believe that a shorter, larger diameter packed column will be as or more affective at fraction separation because of the ability to slow vapor speed.[quote]

Edited: well that quoted didn't work as planned, but you get the idea.
User avatar
jedneck
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3769
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: drive to the sticks, hang a right past the sticks amd go a couple more miles.

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by jedneck »

I have been thinking about trying a short fat cm on my steam stripper. I'm thinking 16-28 inches of packing in a four inch colomn. I wanna try to get single pass steam strip whiskeys. I know it is done with a 4 plate on a steamer. But I'm not sure I wanna build a plater. So I'll be following.
welcome aboard some of us are ornery old coots but if you do a lot of
reading and don't ask stupid questions you'll be alright most are
big help
Dunder
User avatar
jedneck
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3769
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: drive to the sticks, hang a right past the sticks amd go a couple more miles.

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by jedneck »

Shady do you remember which thread that quote come from? I wanna read it.
welcome aboard some of us are ornery old coots but if you do a lot of
reading and don't ask stupid questions you'll be alright most are
big help
Dunder
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by shadylane »

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... &start=150
Scroll half way down. July 19 11:27 pm
When you have the time Mash rookie's post's are worth serious researching
pulsetech
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:26 pm
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by pulsetech »

I have a 500mm tall 4 inch packed section I run over my plates to strip flavor. Is the quoted post implying that I could run it without the plates and get a similar result to running plates only ? That's an easy one to try on my setup . Might give it a go one day
User avatar
jedneck
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3769
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: drive to the sticks, hang a right past the sticks amd go a couple more miles.

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by jedneck »

shadylane wrote:http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... &start=150
Scroll half way down. July 19 11:27 pm
When you have the time Mash rookie's post's are worth serious researching
Thank you sir.
I agree mash rookie's posts are very insightful. I'm gonna have to read that one when the brain isn't fried.
welcome aboard some of us are ornery old coots but if you do a lot of
reading and don't ask stupid questions you'll be alright most are
big help
Dunder
User avatar
DAD300
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2839
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Southern U.S.

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by DAD300 »

I have run a 4" x 24" column packed with SPP.

It easily got to 92+% but there were other issues. Lack of vapor speed! Reflux was making it all the way back to the boiler. A single perf plate under it would probably fix it!

It was a keg over gas and didn't have enough power/vapor speed to exploit the 4" dia's capabilities.
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
DSP-AR-20005
googe
retired
Posts: 3848
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:53 pm
Location: awwstralian in new zealund

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by googe »

What do you want it for shady, flavours or neut?. I've tried a few different sizes, 4"x 400mm, 4"x 500mm, 4"x 600mm, packed with lava. i did rum, the shorter one had more flavour, but the taste was not similar to running through my three plates, i tried all sorts of blending to try replicate it, but the plates just give a distinct flavor, I'm not the best at blending but couldn't replicate the plates. It was only a minor difference IMO but big enough difference to not warrant changing from.plates. Is that what you mean?. Plus, it's easier to clean plates after rum than packing, it stunk the lava up quite bad!.
Here's to alcohol, the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems.
"Homer J Simpson"
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by shadylane »

I was thinking 4" x 300mm for making whiskey. The still will be charged with low-wines.
And heated with two controlled 4500w elements
User avatar
pfshine
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3106
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Vegas

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by pfshine »

With the lower vapor speed do you think channeling might become an issue?
Life is a journey you take alone. Make sure you do what you what makes you happy
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by shadylane »

I'm not sure how much power a short 4" column wants for the proper vapor speed.
The boiler is 16 gallons with two heaters. It will be charged with low-wines from steamed stripped all grain mash.
I don't want to make neutral spirits but I do want to clean up the whiskey.
I'm looking for the equivalent of a 3 or 4 plate column and I'll be using lava rock for packing.
jb-texshine
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3036
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:03 am
Location: Texan living in Missouri

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by jb-texshine »

I like em short and chubby....my kinda column!!!! Don't tell the wife,wait,nevermind she knows what I like....
Jb
Remember not to blow yourself up,you only get to forget once!


Deo Vendice

Never eat Mexican food north or east of Dallas tx!
User avatar
DAD300
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2839
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Southern U.S.

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by DAD300 »

I think your 9,000watts will be good if you're packed right! Now have you got a reflux condenser that can handle 9,000watts? Shroter the column the more of that power will reach the RC.
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
DSP-AR-20005
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by shadylane »

I'm hoping to use the reflux and product condenser from my 2-1/2" packed CM column. Either one of them will easily knock down 4000w.
If their not big enough, I'll run within their limits until I get around to building a bigger RC. For now I'll build on the cheap until I find out if the experiment is going to work.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by shadylane »

Any opinions, links or information that might be of use on substituting a short, fat packed column for plated column ?
In a day or two I'll start torturing copper, any info or opinions would be appreciated. I've searched to almost no avail.
toetag
Novice
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:08 pm

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by toetag »

I'm building a 4in stainless boka column 3ft tall for my 15 gal boiler. The stainless was in 12in sections and I needed some practice with the tig. I'll have it finished in a couple weeks. I got to make a RC for it and get a needle valve. I'll post my results.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by shadylane »

Let me know what you find out, so we can compare notes.
User avatar
Skipper1953
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:08 am
Location: USA

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by Skipper1953 »

I recently acquired a 36" long piece of 6" stainless tubing. I'm really tempted to try a short, fat, packed column. At the moment, all I have to put on top of the SFC is a 2" Boka head. I have an 11 gallon boiler with a 5500 watt element to put under the Short, Fat, Packed column. The column would likely be packed with lava rock. I'll need to do a few hours of overtime at work to finance the necessary parts to put it all together.

Mash Rookie, where ever you are, thanks for the inspiration.
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by still_stirrin »

Skipper1953 wrote:...Mash Rookie, where ever you are, thanks for the inspiration...
Gone but never forgotten.

Skipper, an 11 gallon boiler may be too small for a 6" diameter column. You may end up with most of your alcohol held up in reflux in the column. For an 11 gallon boiler, 2" is the right size (diameter). Even a 3" column is better suited for a larger boiler (think, 1/2 barrel keg here).

RIP MR.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
User avatar
wiifm
Admin
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 2:29 am
Location: Cairns QLD Australia

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by wiifm »

shadylane wrote:I was thinking 4" x 300mm for making whiskey. The still will be charged with low-wines.
And heated with two controlled 4500w elements
Are your low wines going to be coming from stripping runs through the packed section also?

I recently ran uj low wines through 18" long 4" packed with first 6" copper mesh and the remainder ss scrubbers. At 4400 watts, was able to maintain low 90s abv. Later in the run, pushed it to 4800 watts with abv initially dropping to high 80s but flooded the column.

I share googe's concerns about getting a flavour profile you will be happy with.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by shadylane »

The all grain low-wines will be stripped with direct steam injection on a different rig, the ABV will be lower than normal.
toetag
Novice
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:08 pm

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by toetag »

I'm running my new 4in boka for the 3rd time now it seems to work well for me I got 24in of copper mesh packing and running almost as fast as my 2in cm. Proof started at 184 and has dropped about 2 each pint since. All said and done I'm happy with it.
User avatar
DAD300
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2839
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Southern U.S.

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by DAD300 »

That's a painful statement there toetag. Your new rig is almost as fast as your old rig.

Is there some other advantage?
CCVM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... d#p7104768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ethyl Carbamate Docs viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55219&p=7309262&hil ... e#p7309262
DSP-AR-20005
User avatar
pfshine
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3106
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Vegas

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by pfshine »

I'm with dad on that. Ouch. With four times the active area you should be blazing past what you were doing. The problem might be the mesh. Switch to lava rock or spp or marbles or something else.
Life is a journey you take alone. Make sure you do what you what makes you happy
toetag
Novice
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:08 pm

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by toetag »

Well I'm still finding how far I can push it. It's bunches easier to run and the higher proof was a lot easier to get. I think I could reach 190 pretty easy if I wanted to.
toetag
Novice
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:08 pm

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by toetag »

I have been running my 4in for about twice a month for the last 4 months and I have been pulling consistant 180 off a single run. I been running about a 10min pint give or take. I can run it faster but I like the process I got.
User avatar
pfshine
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3106
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:59 pm
Location: Vegas

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by pfshine »

There is no way that a 4" rig should be that slow. Perhaps you aren't giving enough heat for the packing to work effectively.
Life is a journey you take alone. Make sure you do what you what makes you happy
User avatar
skow69
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3230
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Cascadia

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by skow69 »

I don't understand. Why did you fork out the dough for 4" pipe?
Distilling at 110f and 75 torr.
I'm not an absinthe snob, I'm The Absinthe Nazi. "NO ABSINTHE FOR YOU!"
toetag
Novice
Posts: 76
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:08 pm

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by toetag »

I didn't buy it. My place of employment was throwing it away so I got it. Do you not thing 10min pint is fast enough?
rad14701
retired
Posts: 20865
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: Short fat packed columns

Post by rad14701 »

toetag wrote:I didn't buy it. My place of employment was throwing it away so I got it. Do you not thing 10min pint is fast enough?
Considering how I can pull 1oz per minute at 95% using a 1.25" packed column, it's not all that fast... But it's not just about speed, it's about quality...
Post Reply