Building a modular 4 inch playground.

Post by **yakattack** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:39 pm

As I type this I have a 9 foot piece of 4 inch copper, sitting, taunting me to build with it and I don't think I can resist much longer.

Anyways, this is going to be a truly modular setup. With a flute being part of the main focus.

Here are my thoughts/ concerns.

1 speed. As I've just finally upgraded to electric, I want to be able to get the most out of my stilling sessions, between work and the kids time in the shed has to be limited so I have to make the most of it.

Modular - while I know this isn't the last thing I will build (not by a long shot). I want this to be a work horse.
I will have multiple individual plate sections (each connected by a triclamp.

I want to be able to run as a flute, a pot still, (with no vapor restrictions, a packed column, (prob a boka head).

All of these I know are possible. Now here's my holdups.

1 money - 4 inch fittings are expensive. So its going to take me a while to save for them all. I'll be doing a few at a time so you will see some sections be finished before others.

2 time. Again. Have to pull double duty and build while I am stripping mash.

3 building it right the first time. The pipe alone was 140 and took me over a year to find. So hacking into it and screwing up is not an option. And with the cost of fittings I have to do this as cheaply as possible.

Now on to a few questions.

In most of the builds I have seen, specifically for flutes. After the deflag (rc) the pipe diameter changes down to two inch or 3 inch.

Is this done as a cost savings or is there a reason that I am no seeing? My though is keep it 4 inch all the way from keg to pc. Thus keeping the speed. My pc (shotgun) will pull double duty and be for stripping as well as product runs so I want it to be able to handle 5500 watts or more at full throttle.

I am willing to spend the money upfront on 4 inch fittings as its pretty much a one time cost, that I will be doing over the next 6 months.

And this is for those who have and run a flute. What would you do differently if you could start your build over again. What are must haves or shit that would have been nice.

My boiler (keg) will be getting a 4 inch furral and a 2 inch drain at the bottom. Im thinking even a sightglass so I can visually check that the element stays covered at all times. (Thats a want not a need)

I want to have some fun with this build as I have gear that I am running right now. So thoughts suggestions?

Let's have fun with this one guys.

Yak

Post by **pfshine** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:57 pm

The biggest thing you are gonna want is a 3-4" fill port. That is a must. For the reducing down, if you build a traditional dephlag (rc) then you would have eight or nine 1/2" tubes restricting the flow there. You could go even smaller and be just fine. Look at commercial stills they go down to 1". The only 4" fitting you would need is a 4" × whatever, and you can make that. If you want to go full on modular think about making it in 1, 2 and 3 plate sections to save work time and money.

Post by **shadylane** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:47 pm

I'm in the process of building something similar. I decided to make a CM still head instead of a Boka.
That way I could put plates or a packed column under the RC, or run it as a potstill.
Maybe a Boka still head could be used above plates but I don't remember seeing it done.
One bad side of a boka is the cost of a 4" tee

Post by **pfshine** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:56 pm

What would the tee be for?

Post by **shadylane** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:06 pm

I had a brain fart. The boka is a good simple still, the Nixon-stone needs the expensive tee.

Post by **pfshine** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:19 pm

I would say just nix the boka altogether. And use a packed section over plates with the normal setup. A boka would just slow everything down.

Post by **raketemensch** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:59 pm

It seems like the flute does everything the boka does, but better.

Post by **bearriver** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:17 pm

pfshine wrote:A boka would just slow everything down.

How so?

Post by **pfshine** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:31 pm

They are slow. I used one when I first started and quickly ripped it apart and used the pieces for a better faster still. The ostrich is just slow.

Post by **shadylane** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:38 pm

Just a thought, there's a couple different, what I call still heads. VM, LM, CM, hybrids etc
Most of them can be mounted above a packed or plated column.
Speed is all about the heat source, reflux and take off rate.
A small under powered anything will be a trial of patients, if you want high proof.
But it might be some really good neutral, one friggin drop at a time

Post by **googe** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:52 pm

Is there any reason you want it to run pot mode?, the joy of plates is one run done. Cm is proven to work with plates great, i don't see the need to do a boka?, if you want cool distillate you'll have to add a condenser on the valve, outing slant plates and a valve and piping just seems like unnecessary extra work

Post by **shadylane** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:06 pm

+1 on the CM. If you want modular, it's the only logical choice. Or at least the most logical beginning.

Post by **hellbilly007** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:57 pm

My thought process may be outdated, does anybody use a valve (LM) on the top plate any more along with using a dephleg (CM/RC)? That would be the only suggestion I could think of, Yak. That is if you mentioned a Boka for its ability to compress heads. I'd imagine that would prevent smearing in the PC. Just throwing it out there

Post by **Halfbaked** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:15 pm

Let me make this real simple for you, if you want a pot still and a flute and a boka and be able to mix and match you need 5 plates and a 2 ft packed section. You can do what you want for cheap. Yes cheap. You are gonna need several tri clamps. 4 inch ones run I think $11 ea. PFs 24 hour thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=57572 will get you pretty much most of what you need. PF is a nice guy pm him if you don't understand what is going on, I think he would be OK with it. There was a study done by someone here that did a 5 plated still with a 2 ft packed section and reached in the upper 95% , and a flute can run fairly quick doing this. If that is not clean enough water it to 10-15% and run it again, it will be. I am not bashing BOKA but it gonna take you 6 or 8 hours to run that to achieve pretty much the same thing. IF you want a pot? Take the plates out and the RC and you have a 4 inch pot. I got a feeling the pot and the BOKA are gonna be a thought that you might not use. Again, I am not bashing the pot or the BOKA, both produce fine likkkkker.

Post by **pfshine** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:48 pm

I will bash the boka. It's slow. Really slow. If you can go faster than a 12 hour run with the same outcome, why wouldn't you do it

Monkeyman88 · Post by **Monkeyman88** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:57 am

pfshine wrote:I will bash the boka. It's slow. Really slow. If you can go faster than a 12 hour run with the same outcome, why wouldn't you do it

Maybe you're just running it wrong.
I got a 50mm boka. 1.2m tall. Strip run of 40L, switch on to switch off in 2.45hours. Spirit run with 40% low wines. 4 hours switch on to switch off pulling 90%+ until tails.

Post by **raketemensch** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:59 am

But if you're building a flute, you're getting solid heads and tails compression along with a fast run time, no? It seemed to me that this was the whole point of the flute.

Post by **bearriver** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:23 am

I regularly get 1 gal per hour of azeotrope neutral from a 3" LM at 4500-5000 watts heat input. A 4 inch LM theoretically would do %133 of that. Nothing about that is slow... To boot my 3" LM head has enough knockdown power to sit on a 6" column and still keep chooching, which is well beyond the limits of hobby scale.

Both CM and LM can run with a reflux ratio of 1:0 to 0:1. With the same RR, the same packing, the same heat input, you (should) get indistinguishable results between the designs.

Saying all bokas are slow is like saying all cars are slow, because I drive a pinto. Horses for courses. LM and CM both have their merits, but neither is inherently "faster".

Post by **yakattack** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:33 am

Bear- build thread to read? Seeing what your talking about will help me .

Post by **bearriver** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:22 pm

Nothing current. I'll post some info for you when I get home from work.

I'm not advocating that you build a boka. I just want to express what I feel is a misconception about the LM design. If you want to experiment with a LM on plates then I see no reason whatsoever to discourage you. It is unorthodox but sound in theory.

If someone has evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it.

Post by **heartcut** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:59 pm

No fish to fry in this one, but my 4" 2 tray bubble cap (sometimes with a 32" packed upper column) was a reason to give away my 2" potstill and 2 1/2' CM. They both worked well, the bubbler is just better for me at everything I make.

Post by **googe** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:13 pm

I'm not trying to discourage either, didn't mean to sound that way. Only way you'll know.us to try it, don't remember anyone doing a big lm on plates?. I've done a single cap plate as a takeoff point above plates, didn't work very well because it was a plate and had to keep a bath to have any liquid for takeoff, the plate would keep drying up. Only thing I'd worry about with a slant plate head on a big Plater would be getting the plate area the right size to handle the takeoff speed without causing to.much smearing.

Hound Dog · Post by **Hound Dog** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:31 am

pfshine wrote:I will bash the boka. It's slow. Really slow. If you can go faster than a 12 hour run with the same outcome, why wouldn't you do it

PF, I have to agree with Bear, my Boka is far from slow. Either you had a broken one, didn't build it right or didn't learn how to run it. If it takes you 12 hours you are really doing something wrong and I run a 20 gallon boiler....

But as others have said, build what suits your needs. I can run vodka at azeo or clean up the dirty whiskey runs from my pot still by compressing the heads then running the hearts fast. Just have to learn how to run what you have.

Post by **MoonBreath** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:16 pm

I would say diameter reduction you're talking about would be primarily dictated by boiler size, dephleg diameter, and lastly price and availability ...4" elbows, pipe, ferrules, and clamps make many men (and SOH's) cringe ...
My main regret is having a ss dephlegmater in between copper riser and elbow ...I will be building a new copper dephleg to give me confidence that I'm getting a better heat transfer, or gradient .
Other than that, all of the bells and whistles Do help and its your baby, so make it a one-of-a-kind and have fun ...I'm very happy with my double bubble rig ..See no need for anything over 80%, so I probably won't add another plate ..I don't think mine will be finished for a while as I have a long list of luxuries I want to add ...Just my $.10 ...

Post by **yakattack** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:31 am

I will have to be either making it buying fittings from the scrap yard. Minus triclamps. I think I may keep it all 4 inch, it may require an upgraded boiler down the line (25 gallon) or maybe just add a thumper, who knows. But by staying 4 inch through it I should be able to get the maximum speed for stripping runs, and very good spirit runs as well.

When I finally pull the trigger on going legit (have to finish my apprenticeship first) I will base my setup in how this 4 inch runs.

Yak

Post by **yakattack** » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:35 am

I'm addicted to power.
I upgraded my 15.5 gallon keg to electric.
One 240v 4500w element and one 120v 1500w element.

12 gallons of wash, time to heat and strip full blast. First drips happen within 30 min.

Total run time 2 hours give or take 15 min depending on how low I run.

This is on my 2 inch setup (potstill) I've decided that now I'll be converting a separate keg to a steam rig with the flute to sit above it. It will be a bit for the build to commence (co inside with the flute build. )

Yak (ogh ogh ogh)

LBHD · Post by **LBHD** » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:55 am

Yak - you keep saying keep 4 inch all the way - I dont understand your reasoning.

Pipe size after the reflux portion is insignificant and will not contribute substantially to faster or slower takeoff. Once you are above the condenser (CM), you could really go to 3/4 or 1/2 inch and be fine, so long as your product condenser can handle the amount of distillate you are letting past. For LM, there is nothing after the condenser, so you dont need any reduction there I guess?

You can have 4-5 plates in a 2 ft section, a packed 3 ft section, and a 1ft condenser section and be all set - north of your condenser, you could go down to 2" for a simple pot still head. Then you could:

azeo from wash (plates + packed + condenser + pot still head for takeoff)
azeo from stripped (packed + condenser + pot still head)
flavored 1 run from wash (# of plates + condenser + pot still head)
flavored from stripping runs (pot still head only)

Sell the other 3ft of copper for enough to buy all your parts, grain for a run, and take the wife to a really nice dinner. JMHO.

Post by **yakattack** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:39 pm

Ok so I have receive most of my parts t get started with my 4 inch playground. I will have to shave some of the outside wall of the purchase furrels (critical junctions will use these. Rest will be hand made. ) was thinking of main the flute sections 5 inches furrel to furrel. Any thoughts or recommendations? Plates will be sandwiched between furrels so sections can be run just as a pot still if needed.

Post by **raketemensch** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:05 pm

Just a thought, from what I ran into -- if you're putting a plate and a PTFE gasket between each module, it works best if your plates fit inside the inner PTFE ring. It makes clamping everything together a lot easier.

I was thinking about making the plates I'd bought smaller, when I realized it would be much easier to just remove some material from the gasket. It made assembly a lot easier.

If you're cutting your own plates, maybe the gasket would make a nice template for sizing?

Post by **yakattack** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:17 pm

I have the plates already. I'll be using just Teflon tape. Its all I use now and haven't had any issues yet. But we will see. Tha k's for the tip tho. Any others I should keep in mind?

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