NattyBoh's Flute

[NattyBoh]

Its finally finished! Pictures coming soon. Now I just need to learn how to drive it.

My rig is a 4" 3 plate (1/16th inch holes) flute modeled after KS's Hillbilly Flute, Old Dogs, and pretty much every other flute provided inspiration. Ive got 3/4" downcomers with 1' caps as the cups. The deflag is 4" tall with 6 1/2' tubes and the PC is made from 3" pipe with 5 3/4' tubes inside. My 1/2 barrel is powered by 5500 ULWD element and a 10,000SCR.

The good news... the power and the deplag are extremely responsive as is the 3-way valve that directs the cooling. During my 2 cleaning runs (vinegar/water) and 2 sacrificial/practice runs (10 g of feints diluted to 10%), ive been able to gets all 3 plates bubbling nicely and have been able to stack the column at 100% reflux while holding 78 degrees. This was done while running at 11.7 amps. and a coolant rate of 1gal every 2minutes and 15 secs. ABV came off intitally at 90.

The not so good news (if im being picky)... I know each flute has its own "sweet spot" but at the above settings, my takeoff rate was about 1 quart every 25+ minutes. From my research I know others are getting 1 quart every 15-20 mins. Once i increased the amps to 12.7, then 13, I could not get consistency or get it equalized (ABV dropped, plated flooded, then emptied when I tweaked water rate, etc).

For those of you out there with similar rigs, any advice to shorten the learning curve finding the sweet spot? Is there a coolant rate (g/min) that would be a good start? Anyone using an ampmeter and mind sharing their sweet spot amp level (In the Hillbilly Stills YouTube video, Mike mentions 20 amps). I read someone else was running at 13 so thats the ballpark where i started.

Back to the good news...I already love this thing and cant wait to learn what it can do to make some nice bourbons and whiskeys. Like I said, pictures (and maybe a video) to follow soon. Thanks in advance!

[Wooday]

PICTURES!

Pretty please.

[NattyBoh]

image.jpeg (22.37 KiB) Viewed 3485 times

[googe]

Nice compact unit mate, good job

[raketemensch]

It took me a while to find the sweet spot on mine, largely because I don't use a thermo and my cooling reservoir was too variable.

I'm not getting the speeds you're talking about, but I'm OK with that. I may get there eventually, but for now I'm running slowly to be more stable.

[shadylane]

Sounds like the pressure drop across the plates is too high for the downcomer and the trap is blowing dry.
Maybe a deeper cup on the downcomer?
Or more holes in the plate. But that will make plate run poorly when turned down.

[NattyBoh]

So to date, I am 0 for 3. Two cleaning runs and a neutral wash run today and I'm still struggling to find the sweet spot. I promised myself I would stick with one power setting (amps) and only adjust coolant flow rate and 3way valve positioning. That didn't work. I fiddled w the amps, coolant and valve the whole run. Ran 12g of 10% neutral. Refluxed for 30 mins while holding 78. Collected 600ml of fores, restacked, then another 600 of heads (I think). Started collecting at 78 degrees with a steady unbroken stream but the ABV climbed pretty quickly, jar 1 started at 88 ABV (200 ml), jar 2 86, jar 3 81 and jar 4 65. Jar 5 I collected 400 ml from 65 down to 35 then shut it off. As I said before the good news is that this thing is very responsive..small adjustments to valve or power respond quickly. I just can't get a handle on how much coolant to run through it and at what power. I have yet to see that point when the stream reduces to a drip when the heads are ending or the tails are starting. Any suggestions from any of the flute runners out there?

[raketemensch]

I'm refraining from giving advice until a few elders with more experience than me hopefully jump in...

[Saltbush Bill]

For those of you out there with similar rigs, any advice to shorten the learning curve finding the sweet spot?

Yes Forget all the Temps , quantities and times you are quoting and run the still using your senses. All that other stuff is just confusing hell out of you. Don't worry about how everyone else's runs, they all run a little different.
Take Fores off at a drip, turn down reflux or increase heat input a tad to increase flow when you get to hearts, use your nose, eyes and mouth, just like you would with a pot still.

[NattyBoh]

Thanks SB. I'll give it another try.

[NattyBoh]

Another frustrating run. Still struggling to find my stills happy place. Ran a sugar wash today, 8 gallons. Set at 13.5 amps. One hour heat up time. 100% reflux for 30 mins. Took fores and early heads (600 ml) then collected the next several jars in 200ml each. Was holding 80 degrees most of the time but had to continue to play with the 3 way valve and the amount of water flow (I was between 1/2 g and a gallon per minute and takeoff rate and plate activity was still all over the place. Most of the time the top plate was bubbling nicely but the middle was 1/3 full and bubbling but also has steam and fogging on glass. Bottom sight glass had half full bath level, very few bubbles, and the steam and foggy glas too. After the first 600 ml, I pulled 2200 ml until temp started to climb and ABV drop. Yield seems pretty low too but I'm not sure what my starting % was.

Lots of info I know and prob not enough to diagnose the problem. Any advise? Should I stick with a certain coolant flow first and adjust power or vice versa? I feel like I'm spinning 3 plates at the circus with the coolant, the valve, and the power.

[acfixer69]

You may want to show an accurate flow diagram of your cooling plumbing. It looks confusing and a 3 way valve is not a good method of controlling the water flow. Also is the 3 way valve a " T" or "L" type ?

[NattyBoh]

Thanks for replying. (I have read some of your posts regarding flute runs) It's a T type 3 way and routed the same as ODs. In through bottom of PC, out top, through valve then in bottom of RC then out top. It reacts very quickly. I also didn't mention that the water from the PC was still cold coming out. I think my biggest issue is the amount of total water flow coming in then finding that ratio when keeping the correct amount of reflux while still knocking down all the product. My PC seems to be able to knock down whatever I throw at it.

[NattyBoh]

On a previous run I used your comments in the "Basic Flute design is flawed thread" as a guide but I think I kept tinkering with the controls. Maybe I should mimic your process a hold to it.

[googe]

I've always run my 3 plate between 1.8~2.2lpm, I havnt used a 3 way valve for control but others have said there good and others have said there touchy. When I first started running a bubbler I had similar problems, not knowing what I'm doing and being impatient which leads to frustration and a bad run lol. Emptyglass gave me some great advice and still do it this way now.


Set coolant full flow though dephleg
load plates
Take heat up till PC starts dripping
Back heat down till drops stop
Reflux for 10 mins
close valve to dephleg till drips appear
Takes fores
Close valve more till a stream just past dripping appears
Take heads
Power up a touch to a steady stream
Take hearts pretty fast
Alc meter will pop up like a fishing float meaning tails
Turn dephleg off
Wack the power up.and take tails

[acfixer69]

Wow I havent thought about that thread in along time. I didnt poast the stc stuff there as running info. It was mostly because of the misleading statement of the plated columns. I hate the slang term of flute. . I grew up in the late 60s. Anyway the dephleg controller stc is controling output water temp. Not column vapor output temp. Follow googes instructions they look sound. Once the column is known to work proper you can play with making things change at will because you will know how to bring them back if needed.
I still think your plumbing is making issues. Stright ball valves are finicky but work fine but 3 way is not something I would recommend useing there. Will help you if wish.

AC

[Saltbush Bill]

My opinion is that anything other than a needle valve to control the dephleg water flow is a complete pain in the arse.
Other than that follow Goog"s advise and you should do fine.

[NattyBoh]

Thanks Googe...that is a perfect starting point for me. I'm going to try that. Thanks also acfixer69. I just might take you up on that help you offered. Would you mind a PM or two if more questions come up?

[NattyBoh]

Thanks SBB

[acfixer69]

No problem but need to figure out your plumbing the pic don't show enough.

AC

[NattyBoh]

[NattyBoh]

[NattyBoh]

Googe, does the stream change or does the alc meter bounce when transitioning from heads to hearts?

[googe]

Sometimes my meter moves very very slightly, but usually stays stable, I always struggle with the heads to hearts. Is your output surging off and on a bit?.

[NattyBoh]

I haven't run it yet. My sweetfeed ferment just finished 2 days ago so I'm either running it tonight or tomorrow morning.

[acfixer69]

I haven't run it yet. My sweetfeed ferment just finished 2 days ago so I'm either running it tonight or tomorrow morning.

Did you run the vinegar and the sacrificial alcohol run. Those are most important not only for the cleaning but leak checking and how the rig reacts with the lower boiling temps and cooling control.

AC

[NattyBoh]

I should have been clearer...I have run it a few times including the cleaning and sacrificial runs. I meant I had not run it since getting Googe's recommendation/process.

I did run it last night and while the run wasn't perfect, I'm getting closer to finding its sweet spot. Once I got it up to temp and the plates were all loaded and bubbling, I refluxed for 10 minutes. I collected 400ml of fores with a fast drip then started collecting the rest in 200ml jars. The initial ABV was 70, temp probe at 84, and the plates were very full (top plate was past sight glas). Maybe I was running it too hard? I made a few adjustments to the power and was able to get plates less full but still bubbling and the ABV slowly got up to 78 and my temp probe went down to 80. I kept the coolant rate at 2l/min the entire run. My power settings ranged from 12-14 which I know is a pretty wide range. The good news is I was able to keep it stabilized for about 1600ml before the ABV started to drop and the temp climbed. Still learning and fiddling with the power and the 3 way valve but if I can get this thing to come off at 78-75 ABV (making whiskey/bourbon), I'll be very happy.

[Saltbush Bill]

the plates were very full (top plate was past sight glas). Maybe I was running it too hard?

To much heat, once the plates start to flood to that extent your ABV will go down and smearing can start to occur.

[NattyBoh]

I had my first successful run on the new rig! I ran 10.5 gallons of 9% sweetfeed. I set the coolant flow to 2 liters per minute and slowly warmed it up (one hour). I refluxed for 10 minutes and was able to hold at 80-81 degrees for a majority of the run. ABV started at 89 then settled in to 87. I ran at 12.8 to 13.3 amps for awhile then increased slightly later on to keep desired takeoff rate (15 minute quarts). I was able to witness the stream go to a trickle then the temp rise and the ABV drop (just like I've read that it's supposed to happen) when tails cane over. I made cuts and kept over two quarts, diluted to 62abv and now have 3/4 of a gallon on oak. I hope these results sound ok as I was happy with the way she ran. I'm still learning cuts as my previous experience was on my pot still so the compression of a flute takes some getting used too. Thanks again to all that responded with advice. I've got two 12g batches fermenting now...another sweetfeed and a WPOSW. Im sure more questions will follow so thanks in advance.

[raketemensch]

Good run. I hadn't been taking notes for a while, but I recently started recording which jars came after the slowdown, and am experimenting to see if it's worth cranking up the ABV at that point, or if it's just going into the feints jar anyway.

If it's just destined for the feints jar, then there's no real reason to keep refluxing it at that point. I'll know for sure in a few more runs, but it *does* feel good to see it work as expected, eh? Once the ABV drops, it drops like a rock.