Adult's Meccano Set

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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kimbodious
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Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

I never forgave my elder brother for taking his Meccano toy construction set with him when he left home to get married. Anyway now I have my own construction set to play around with!
All components, unassembled
All components, unassembled
Pot still with pieces left over
Pot still with pieces left over
VM still partially assembled
VM still partially assembled
blurry pic sorry, had to stand on a stool to get this photo.

I love the convenience of modular configurations for ease of cleaning and packing up.

cheers!
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

The gate valve is 3/4". The long sections are 600mm long. The copper disc is a centering ring for between the two 600mm packed sections. The tee below the takeoff is where a sight glass is planned to go(?). The RC is a SD Big Baby condenser. Sing out if you want to know anything else.
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Danespirit
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Danespirit »

Well,well,well...I think your brother gets seriously jealous when he sees your new toy.. 8)
It's a 2" column, I assume..?
Have you thought about using a pump and reservoir for the cooling..?
If so, a "bypass" valve to the RC will be a good idea.
It will enable you to run full flow through your Liebig and control the amount of cooling water to the RC..
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by still_stirrin »

Is your reflux condenser a 10"-12" shotgun (dephlag)? Are you mounting that above the vapor takeoff Tee? Try putting it below the Tee and make it a CM.

Good looking equipment...a lot of potential there.

Be safe, responsible, and discrete.
ss

edit-corrected spelling.
Last edited by still_stirrin on Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

Thanks for your comments. Yes it is 2" and quite adaptable for suiting the suggestion you have made. That is the beauty of a modular set up and worth the extra expense. I am considering involving an inground swimming pool as my supply for the coolant, only problem is that is is 19 metres away from where I set up my still.

Yes it is the Still Dragon Big Baby 2" shotgun condenser, I would think it is more like 6-8" long.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Danespirit »

You could solve the cooling problem with an efficient pump.
Another way would be a pump and an elevated reservoir.
The pump feeds the reservoir which again feeds the still by gravity..
Edited to add:
The important things that come into play with such a setup are:
The internal diameter of the feed lines must be adequate dimensioned and the pump must be capable of delivering sufficient water pressure.
It's not so much a matter of how many liter/gallon per hour it delivers, it would be the lift height that determines if it's powerful enough.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

Cooling problem? No such issue.

Water via the domestic supply cost $0.80 AUD per 1,000 litres. I use the water from the RC to top up the inground pool for all the evapouration it experiences here in the tropics.

Lift height would be 2.4 metres. Yes in time I would rather recirculate water from the pool rather than the set up I have now but economically wrt the cost of the water it doesn't stack up - environmentally is a different consideration...

I am not sure why I should go CM instead of the VM set up? Yes I could do that easily enough, but what would be the advantage?
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by thecroweater »

You use that as pot still with that valve and you want to be damn careful, you ever accidently have that valve turned and you got a very dangerous bomb there
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Danespirit »

kimbodious wrote: I am not sure why I should go CM instead of the VM set up? Yes I could do that easily enough, but what would be the advantage?
Well, the short story is...a VM can only collect down to around 40% ABV, then it would kind of "auto shut down".
A CM, can collect all the way down.
However, a VM would be easier to run compared to a CM...cause it won't require constant adjustments to the cooling water (some would say they don't mind doing that).

The longer explanation about this is as follows:
The CM (Cooling Management), controls the reflux via the amount of cooling water supplied to the condenser.
If the amount of water is reduced, a larger portion of vapor will pass by the reflux condenser.
If it's totally shut off, it will just act as a sort of pot still (sort of, cause a pot still has no packing).

The VM (Vapor Management) utilizes the laws of nature in a different way.
It relies on the principle that alcohol laden vapor will be heavier than air and sink downwards (to the takeoff).
Hence, the shut off at around 40% ABV.... as there is not enough alcohol in the vapor stream and the takeoff will be "starved".
Some other long dwindled explanations come into play here too, but that would take it too far.
Furthermore, there are a lot of other threads in here regarding this subject.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

My first still was an off the shelf Kegomax CM with the jacketed RC. It was very fiddly to operate requiring a needle valve for that really fine control required for cooling to the RC. It was also a big hunk of stuff to clean and store away. I did however manage to make some nice neutral with it.

The new modular gear packs away in to two 10 litre pails and it is so much easier to clean.

I use a 30cm section plus 90 and 45 degree elbows for my pot still, it doesn't involve the valve.

I have a bit to learn fur running the VM. Although I achieved 93% ABV for the first 5 litres of product (at ~3 litres an hour) it was a smeared mess. I need to resist the urge to run it hard and fast aye!
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Danespirit »

I have a bit to learn fur running the VM. Although I achieved 93% ABV for the first 5 litres of product (at ~3 litres an hour) it was a smeared mess. I need to resist the urge to run it hard and fast aye!
Yep..! :wink:
Also ,a stripping run before the spirit run in a reflux still will vastly improve you end result.
My VM runs at about 1,5-2 L an hour of finest neutral (2" VM).
If I push it much more , I get a larger amount to the takeoff, but quality and ABV will suffer.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

yes, I have only put low wines through my VM. A big test of my patience building up enough low wunes for my first VM run... and then I make a mess of the product. Oh well that I can dilute and run through the VM, practise makes perfect
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Danespirit »

kimbodious wrote: A big test of my patience building up enough low wunes for my first VM run... and then I make a mess of the product. Oh well that I can dilute and run through the VM, practise makes perfect
We have all been there and f@%¤ up the whole run.
The beauty of a reflux still is...nothing is wasted... not even your time. You would learn an important lesson, enabling you to produce a better product and get to know your equipment as if it were your right arm.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Yummyrum »

thecroweater wrote:You use that as pot still with that valve and you want to be damn careful, you ever accidently have that valve turned and you got a very dangerous bomb there
+1 Crow ......You have to have your wits about you when setting this sort of gear up . ...Definitely not for the novice .
Kim in his parts layout for the Pot set up left the Valve to the side ...thank fuck ....you would be a dick if you included it .


Nice setup though Kimbodious. I love the VM too :thumbup:
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

I was being all artsy with the pics of bits and the stills. It distracts from what I really wanted to show. I'll see what pics I have on this device that I can post here.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

Polly pot still on a stripping run being watched over by my fave still-sitter. The thermometer isn't necessary but it was kind of interesting. Shotgun was a prop from a High School play 'Ma Baker's Tonic'. Very exotic tropical garden in the background, we love where we live!
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

business end of Vickie VM still. I need a more secure mount for the thermometer, it seals okay but I would prefer a more substantial mount for it.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

When I decided to build a modular VM still I believed plenty of people had gone before me. Turns out not all that many at all?! Based on the interest and comments, Sal and I made a Youtube animation of the construction process, it has a beautiful song for the soundtrack! https://youtu.be/r4KYCtNJmow" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Danespirit »

kimbodious wrote:business end of Vickie VM still. I need a more secure mount for the thermometer, it seals okay but I would prefer a more substantial mount for it.
Nice video and song..
I got a similar takeoff tee as you have got, here is how I solved the little problem with the thermometer.
Drilled a Ø8 mm hole into the side branch of the tee.
Then TIG welded a 1/4" female threaded fitting to it and screwed a 1/4" by 6 mm compression fitting into it. The 6 mm are slightly larger than a standard probe, so it will fit very loose.
A few wraps of PTFE tape around my thermo probe and it seals perfectly. Of course, one has to tighten it carefully, so the probe ain't damaged.
Instead of TIG welding it, you can also solder the fitting in place...no problem at all.
The fittings are dirt cheap on E-bay, the tee is also sourced from there. Everything is 304 SS
How does your dephlegmator handle the power input...I suppose it handles it well when stuffed with scrubbies..?
Tee with compression fitting installed
Tee with compression fitting installed
Exploded view compression fitting
Exploded view compression fitting
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

thanks, it was fun working out how to make the animation. Yes it is a lovely song. I wanted to use it to showcase a great Australian artist and musician!

Great tip for the thermometer port. I just drilled a small hole topside of the takeoff arm and just wrap the stem with a few laps of thread tape.

Scrubbies loosely packed in only the top half of the dephlegmator. The Big Baby RC appears to be able all I'll need to throw at it with this current set up. On the first proper spirit run I was pulling 2.5 litres+ an hour - much too quickly I know now.

thanks again!
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

Spirit run this week - so slow - achieved azetrope no worries! I learned heaps but still I have questions....?

Firstly, I learned that I can use a much lower flow of cooling water. The tail on the water outlet on the RC is copper so I was able to monitor outflow temps by feeling how warm the copper tail was.

Now I have the sight glass I observed that I can maintain a good few inches of condensate on top of the packing for the vapour to bubble through - it is quite a spectacle! I did not get to the point at any time where product overflowed out the top of the column. So I am running my column in a semi-flooded state even when I had it in full reflux for the hour before taking off foreshots.

My understanding is that with a Boka condensate pools on the slant plate and drawn off via a needle valve?

Then my question is, with my column running in a semi-flooded state, is it a bad thing once I am at the stage of taking off hearts if it is condensate as well as vapour that is being drawn off at the takeoff? All other things were good, temperature was rock steady and product was at or just below azetrope.

Thanks
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Danespirit »

kimbodious wrote:Spirit run this week - so slow - achieved azetrope no worries! I learned heaps but still I have questions....?
So I am running my column in a semi-flooded state even when I had it in full reflux for the hour before taking off foreshots.

My understanding is that with a Boka condensate pools on the slant plate and drawn off via a needle valve?

Then my question is, with my column running in a semi-flooded state, is it a bad thing once I am at the stage of taking off hearts if it is condensate as well as vapour that is being drawn off at the takeoff? All other things were good, temperature was rock steady and product was at or just below azetrope.
An hour of refluxing is a long time...not that it hurts it's just long time to wait for the run to start.
My setup is somewhat comparable to yours, I set my rig to reflux for 20 min. to half an hour.
Yes, a Boka works exactly as you described it, but your setup is a VM..or are you planning on a modification? You could very easy convert it into a combo VM/LM.
Let's see if I understand you correct. Would you draw off liquid as well as vapors?
It's not necessarily a bad thing...but the problem comes if you draw off too much, thus setting the column out of equilibrium.
The purity of the product will suffer if you draw it at excessive rates.
However, as you describe it (with a steady temperature), it seems your setup runs fine.
What's your take off rate?
You will discover too much take off very quickly as the temperatures would fluctuate, you can also hear and feel it.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

Thanks Danespirit. I just wish I had experimented with cooling water and vapour flow rate earlier in the run. I was running the takeoff at two drips a second but that was with the gate valve wide open. So I backed off the rate of water flow to the condensers and could get my two drips a second with the valve closed somewhat. Then I increased the power to the boiler to get a a greater rate of vapour flow and could close the valve a bit further again and still get my two drips a second. I could see a heap of condensate through the sight glass but I was able to keep the vapour flow just below the level where the column could completely flood. At that stage if I opened the gate valve more I could get a steady stream (I am assuming some was pooled condensate) but I kept the valve to the point that the output was a broken stream with the occasional dribble (at that point I'd say output rate would have been 1.2 litres per hour. At two drips a second the output was around 600 ml per hour. The thermometer sat for a long time at 78.5C, nearly as long at 78.6 and tails became evident by the time it read 78.7.
I'd read somewhere that I should reflux for an hour though I got amazing compression of heads even without adding soda ash or bicarb of soda.

From 30 litres of Low Wines (roughly 35% ABV) I discarded 200 mls of foreshots, collected 1.2 litres of heads plus 5 litres of hearts. I collected 400 mls of tails before I called it quits
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Hound Dog »

I am not a VM guy but I run my LM in the semi flooded state you refer too. It works very well like this. I imagine it would work the same for a VM but I would keep the flood low enough to stay out of the takeoff. Only vapor should exit this so the nasty stuff will stay boiling in the column.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

Thanks. I think I'll work on how tightly the column is packed so that I can kepp the higher rates of vapour flow and reduce the risk of flooding. I had the smallest degree of control. I would like a wider range of control and I think by reducing how tightly the column is packed I will have a wider range of cintrol at the power controller. I am pretty sure I could identify when condensate was spilling over in to the takeoff so hopefully with even greater control I avoid that happening at all.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Danespirit »

Your packing should only be stuffed so much, that you can still breathe through it when it's in the column.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by rickos »

kimbodious wrote:Cooling problem? No such issue.

Yes in time I would rather recirculate water from the pool rather than the set up I have now but economically wrt the cost of the water it doesn't stack up - environmentally is a different consideration..

+1 on the draining into the pool, I have a large pond that need topped off regularly and i drain into it. eventually i will recirculate the pond water for cooling, water is cheap for me.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

Ditto, water here is charged at $0.80 AUD per 1000 litres.

I can breathe down my column but not without effort, (it would be tiring if it were a snorkel).
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by kimbodious »

image.jpeg
Pot still run. Not a fast strip this time. Today's run is a double-distillation for slowly collection final spirit from the All Bran Low Wines. There are no components left from my original pot still (except for boiler and controller). The chunky piece of stainless steel on the diagonal with the two clear hoses is a StillDragon Big Baby shotgun condenser that I also use on the tall still. In fact all but one component you see here is used in the tall still. The idea has been for a completely modular system with the minimal number of components to configure to the type of still required for the job.
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Re: Adult's Meccano Set

Post by Danespirit »

It's looking great...! :thumbup:
I like the way you managed to get a weight balance with that dephlegmator as a product condenser.
For my first pot setup, I also used a piece of copper pipe as an extension.
It's a good way to get some copper in your product path and also add some extra cooling.
Your stills are a perfect example of how versatile a modular setup is.
What's the collection rate on your setup...?
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