4" or 3" preference?

[goinbroke2]

Well, i've been going crosseyed with all the reading on here. I'm going to build a reflux column to make vodka for the wife and keep my potstill top for whisky. I have a 57l keg with a 4500 watt element and SD controller. Couple different cooling systems, liebeg and flake stand etc. So, I picked up about 50" of 3" today and some half and three quarters copper as well from the scrap yard, cost 34 bucks. Now on Thursday I stopped at a industrial plumbing place and he had L grade 4". (it must be 3-16s thick!) and he said he'd give me the 63" long piece for 50 bucks. Told him to hold it so i'm kinda obligated to get it, but if you guys had a preference, would you go 4" or stick with 3"? One more thing, until the garage is built i'm in the laundry room so it can only be about 36" long...so 4" or 3", what say you? EDIT: forgot to add, no sure what i'm building but leaning towards perforated plates, but might go coolant management.

[still_stirrin]

If you're building plates, or bubble caps, I'd think the 4" is a better option. But with 4.5kW of power, you may be on the lower side of the necessary power to load it up. The 4" will have a much greater throughput capability than the 3", and that takes more power in the boiler.

But if you were building a VM, the 3" would work great. And those with 3" LMs say they get good production rates (compared to the 2").

But both material costs are spectacular. So invest wisely.
ss

[FreeMountainHermit]

You will have to use copper or brass ferrules as they fit on the outside of the pipe. The stainless ferrules fit on the inside and have a OD of 4 inches whereas the ID of the 4 inch Type L is 3.897 inches.

Save yourself a chit load of annealing as well as beatin' and banging to get the stainless ferrules inside.

[goinbroke2]

Well actually, I was going to not use site glasses and cut an taper the end of the 4" (or 3") to fit the 2" ferrule to match the 2" ferrule on the keg. My biggest concern is my limited height which gives me about 30" or so o actual column length. Half debating about thinking outsid the box and making twin columns side by side. 2" ferrule from the keg and splitting into two columns a then going back together at the top with one deflag or coldfinger or whatever.

[HDNB]

have a good look at deepsouth's 8" monster in craft distillers. he has it valved so it runs a pipe for striping like a pot, or engages the columns. all into one condensor. sweet and space efficient.

perforated plates have been working good for me.

EDIT: oh yeah...4 inch for sure.

[bitter]

I have the pipe for 3" and holding off for a 4".. But might use the 3" to make another boka for the meantime. Had some unforeseen wife spending a shitload of $$$$$ wasting money that put my 4" 4 plate on hold

B

[goinbroke2]

Thanks for the replies guys, I guess i will go 4". Maybe i'll use the 3" for a potstill head. That aught to increase the flow over a 2". I'm still not sure if scrubbies or plates are the way to go, I like the set it up and go and rinse and your done of a plated system though.

[Hound Dog]

Thanks for the replies guys, I guess i will go 4". Maybe i'll use the 3" for a potstill head. That aught to increase the flow over a 2". I'm still not sure if scrubbies or plates are the way to go, I like the set it up and go and rinse and your done of a plated system though.

For a pot still you are not going to see a difference. Packing or plates are two different liquors though. If you want simple quick and neutral go with packing. Do yourself a favor and use marbles, raschig rings or lava rocks and skip the scrubbies. If you want flavor run the plates but it will be a much more involved build and take more knowledge to run. I don't know your distilling level or mechanical aptitude. You can always take packing out of a column and put plates in it later, you can't do the opposite. There again, the section of 3 inch will run pretty nice with packing too if you decide to make the 4 inch plated. Up to your skills.

[rgreen2002]

At that price, take the 4".... you can always find a use for it!

[goinbroke2]

Well, well....here's a pic of the copper I'm starting with. I never would of thought the difference in size from 2" to 4", the 2" is in the middle between the 3 and 4 and it looks TINY!

Hound dog, I run a Maintenance shop, this is the welding bay and I have lots of fabrication skills as well as distilling experience. I just have none with reflux, lol.
On another note, one of my welders from my old shop said he's trying to either finish my SS shotgun or send it to me next week and I'll finish it myself here at my new shop. I started a thread forever ago on it, 2" SS X 6ft long with four 1/2" SS tubes running through it. If you're gonna do it......

EDIT: forgot to mention, the 2" in the middle was an old copper shotgun I made a while back (that's why there are water taps on it)

[still_stirrin]

Well, well...I never would of thought the difference in size from 2" to 4"...

doh...like, maybe twice as big in diameter??? But that's 6x as much pipe circumferentially...and a thicker wall. Heavy too, isn't it?

And wait until you price fittings for it....the pipe will seem quite inexpensive then.
ss

[Hound Dog]

Then you have the materials and ability to do a 4 inch plated and a three inch packed column. Heck, you can even put a short 3 inch packed section on top of your plated column for neutrals. I made a straight 3 plate section ans a single section to go with it. I can use the single as a bubbler for my tall column or add it to the 3 plate. I have not found the need for more than 3 plates yet though if I am going for flavor, this cleans it up without stripping it. Like I said earlier, a 3 inch works well with the right packing. Skip the scrubbies.

[goinbroke2]

Well, well...I never would of thought the difference in size from 2" to 4"...

doh...like, maybe twice as big in diameter??? ss

No shit Sherlock! lol! But yeah, circumfrentially it's huge.

Height is my concern, like I said I only have about 36" of room on top of my keg to the ceiling in my new place. So, until I get the garage built I need something that will make neutrals in 36". Perhaps put a 45* in the column, bring it up 6-8" then lay it over on a 45* angle so I can get more length out of it. When I get home tonight I'll measure again and see how much length I can get if I lay it over. Maybe get it to 48"? I looked at the calculator for figuring the required height and am a little confused. I'm using 4500W and (was thinking scrubbies) might go to Wal-Mart or somewhere tonight and pick up some lava rocks. If I put these calculations in;
4500W
1.2M height (stupid metric, that's 4ft)
.075 dia (3")
SS wool I get 94%

If I go with 6mm rashing rings I get 90%
If I go with marbles (lava rocks) I get 87%
I'm thinking that I'm doing all this for a neutral for the wife, but I'm only getting 87%??

The second issue, I just called the local shop and they said the SS rings are $39.00 for 500G and $15.99 for 100G of copper rings.....is it me or is that insanely expensive?? 3" dia pipe is going to need a poop load of rings and I got to pay $16 per 100g????
I'm thinking of seeing if walmart has copper scrubbies because that's crazy.
Are my calculations out to lunch? Would I not get a good neutral out of a 3" X 48" column with 4500W???

Ooh, another question..how much of the column do you have to fill with packing? The whole thing or just so many inches?

[bluefish_dist]

I would use Walmart scrubbies. I use them in a 60" 4" packed column. They work fine. You have to fill the column for it to work.

If you can do 4" I would. It will be faster and with a short column you will have to run a higher reflux ratio to get a good neutral which is slow. By going larger diameter the take off rate will still be good. 2" has approximately 1/4 the area of 4" so you can get 4 times the output. 3" is slightly more than double.

[goinbroke2]

Thanks for the reply Blue fish, how many watts are you running?

[bluefish_dist]

On my big still the 4" plates x3 flood at about 5000 watts. On my small keg still the plates which are under the packed column flood at 3100. I think I could push it harder and plan on swapping out the plain bubble caps for still dragon pro caps to see if I can up the power a little.

[Hound Dog]

I get way better efficiency out of lava rocks than I ever did from mesh. You do have to break them up to the right size though. You should get to a neutral no problem with 48 inches but does that include the room over it you need for a reflux coil? Blue Fish is right, go 4 inch.

[goinbroke2]

I hate typing on my blackberry lol,
The length of 48" is total, 11" deflag included. I'm ooking a the 4" and thinking what a shame it would be to butcher it by making it short or adding a 45 to it. So, I think i'll go 3" on this built with lava rocks or scrubbies an then later built the 4".
How small do you crush up the lava rocks? Never thought about their size.

[goinbroke2]

Bluefish, what happens when th plates flood? I've heard it mentioned but what actually happens and how do you recognise it? I realise visually through the sight glass, but does the abv drop or output is effected? Just wondering in case I eventually build the 4" but don't have sight glasses.

[cranky]

I say save the 4" until you have more head room.I also think plates are for flavor, not neutral but with limited head room you can get high ABV in a shorter distance using plates but it won't be neutral. On my big CM I use lava rocks and they work real well, I broke them up about the size of a dime, no bigger than a nickel. When you get more headroom you can move up to the 4" and get amazing speed.

[bluefish_dist]

Bluefish, what happens when th plates flood? I've heard it mentioned but what actually happens and how do you recognise it? I realise visually through the sight glass, but does the abv drop or output is effected? Just wondering in case I eventually build the 4" but don't have sight glasses.

What happens is there is more vapor going up than the still can handle and it holds the liquid up on the plates not letting it return. It will also happen in the packing although by having the plate with sight glass underneath I can see it happening and stop before it fills the column. I am going to use a sight glass on my strip still setup since it tends to puke at start up.
I would not build it without a sight glass as its hard to detect until you either have it coming out the top of the still or out the takeoff at full tilt (VM) depending on where you are in the run. My 2" rig would gurgle slightly before it came shooting out the top, not really much warning. I dont run a parrot, so I only monitor head temp and it does not change. You just see the plates filling up and know its time to turn down the input power.
I am all about column diameter now. I started with 2" with SPP and a 4" plate under it but found it makes a really long day even with low wines. I have just about replaced all my original still with larger diameters. Buying it twice instead of just spending the $$ up front to have the bigger stuff.
While not cheap modular is great. My stills are all triclamps and its easy to configure it any way I want. Pot still for stripping, reflux over plates, reflux over packed column, reflux over column with bubble ball. Maybe 15 min to reconfigure. Also easy to upgrade.

[Hound Dog]

I hate typing on my blackberry lol,
The length of 48" is total, 11" deflag included. I'm ooking a the 4" and thinking what a shame it would be to butcher it by making it short or adding a 45 to it. So, I think i'll go 3" on this built with lava rocks or scrubbies an then later built the 4".
How small do you crush up the lava rocks? Never thought about their size.

Smart move. I use nickel and dime size. Do a search for lava rocks. I did a thread on it a while back but am on my phone now and don't have the patience to find the links.

[goinbroke2]

Picking up lava rock tonight, couldn't work on it today had to tear the chainsaw apart. Canadian tire said $12 for a bag, better than the copper rashing rings at the brew shop.

[goinbroke2]

YAY!! Just like Christmas, my 20ft stick of 2" SS came in and the 20ft piece of 1/2" SS tube with it! My ferrules showed up....really got to get that pos chainsaw finished so I can get to work!

[HDNB]

that shop has to be at work where you got someone to clean up after you...right?

either that, or you been in the army wayyy too long and they done converted you to a disciplined organized indvidual.

[goinbroke2]

No that's my home why? not!

That's my shop at work and while I do have the cpl's do clean up, I clean my own messes.

Funny, I go in civi shops and think "how the he'll do you work in this mess?? Yup army has got me anal...

Had a bad day today, never got anything done. I might go in tomorrow. One step ahead and two back.

[goinbroke2]

spinning the sandpaper, cleaning the tubing

Ok, a bit of an update;

Started making the deflag out of 3" copper,

[goinbroke2]

AAHHH!!! I hate when the pictures get all mixed out of order....

Anyway, just need to clean up the solder and put the elbow/lyne arm on and do another water pressure test

[goinbroke2]

Well, they're all mixed up in order but anyway...made the deflagmater then used a piece of 3/4" steel tubing to make a flapper wheel. Sliced it and slid a piece of 50 grit into it then spun it in the drill. Washed it out with brake clean then put a rag on the flapper and ran it up and down a dozen times. (felt like I was honing a cylinder lol)
Soldered the deflag onto the 3" tube and then reduced one end to fit the output/lyne arm on.

Nothings pretty but I'm not buying 3" triclover clamps and fittings for this when I'm building a 4" later.

Ooh, here's a question...what do you put in the tube to stop the lava rocks from falling out. (down into the keg?)
I'm assuming stick a scrubbie in there but what if I soldered a copper cross or something to block it? That wouldn't reduce flow/build pressure would it?


Yup, chainsaw is still sitting in pieces as this has priority lol...

[goinbroke2]

Oops, missed one...