Boka water test questions

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cat herder
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Boka water test questions

Post by cat herder »

I ran my new boka for the first time today. Its a 2 inch column with 15 gal keg boiler. The two elements are 4500w on 110v outlets. It took 4 hours 45 minutes to reach the top of the column. A bit long imo, is that normal? Also, once it started heating up i turned on my 10 inch double coil condenser only to see steam still coming out the top. Atthis point the thermometer was reading 200f. Is that normal or do i need to build a better condenser? It seems to me to work properly there should be no steam.
jb-texshine
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by jb-texshine »

Are the elements wired in series or paralell?

4.75 hrs is a long time just to get steam to the top,or at least seems that way to me but i run a pot still on propane.

Remember that alcohol vapor and water vapor behave differently and water vapor is harder to condense. It is common for steam to exit the top of a boka on a cleaning(steam) run. Bet itll be fine with alcohol though. Alot of people do add a copper scrubby in the condenser to help with knocking vapor down though. Post up a pic of the condenser for others to verify its sufficient though , like i said im a pot and thump kinda guy...
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frunobulax
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by frunobulax »

I have a homebrew boil kettle, which is a 55 gallon SS drum with 2- 5500W elements and I don't think it would take more than an hour and a half to bring 30-40 gallons to a boil.
And I agree with JBT oe this assessment of the condenser. :thumbup:
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by StillerBoy »

How much water was added to the boiler for the water run? 2 - 4500 on 120volt is only 2250 watt total power.. still having said that to heat a full say 12 gal in almost 5 hours, I would have to say that one your element or plug in was not working properly, for even at 2250 watt it should have heated up sooner that the time you stated..

As for the condenser not able to knock down the vapour, it being 10" overall, I would have to say that there are restriction in the coils somewhere.. was it tested for water flow prior to being used.. 10' should have been able to knock down the vapour with so little power..

Pictures of the condenser would help..

Mars
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der wo
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by der wo »

jb-texshine wrote:Remember that alcohol vapor and water vapor behave differently and water vapor is harder to condense.
But it's also harder to vaporize. 1kW will vaporize much less water than ethanol. The steam of 1kW will need 1kW cooling power, regardless if it's water or ethanol. I am not sure, but I think what you write is an often repeated myth. Please correct me, if someone knows it better than me.
Yes, the heating up time sounds very strange. And yes, perhaps it's switched in series. But then, when the condenser is not able to knock down this to 25% reduced power, of course it doesn't get better with full power...
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cat herder
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by cat herder »

Thanks for all the input!

I made a mistake before. I have an 8 inch condenser not 10. I'll try again with a scrubber added to the top.

The elements are wired seperately and on different circuits. I scrapped one from an old water heater so I'll pull that one out and test it. It may be I have a bad one in there.
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jb-texshine
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by jb-texshine »

Not sure if it just the pic or not but are those flat spots on the bottom pic by the top of coil and on the last coil at the bottom?
Hook your water pump or what have you to and see how fast itll fill a quart jar up as a flow test. Time it.
If it does have a flow restriction the good news is csst is super simple to wind and offers better heat transfer properties and wont kink.
You can test your water heater elements with a multimeter.
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StillerBoy
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by StillerBoy »

Still at 8" it of been able to knock down the vapour.. from what I can see, the coils on the outside wrap look quite flat, and not able to see the inside coils..

Have you tested for water flow rate.. should be able on the outlet get at least a 3 -5 liter flow per minutes, without having to open the water valve wide open.. should get a good water flow with just a quarter turn on the valve.. you need to have a very good water flow, and from what I see, I don't think you have a good water flow..

Mars
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CaptMorgan
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by CaptMorgan »

How much water are you flowing? What is your coil made of, 1/4" copper?

I have a single coil of 1/4" that is about 9" long and it does the trick on my 2" Boka without a scrubber inside. My pump is rated at 529 gph and I run a gallon in about 10-12 minutes using a valve on my output cooling water to keep it coming out at 100 to 110F. Running wide open, I get about a gallon of flow per minute.

I run on a propane burner and usually heat 8 gallons up to 172f in a little over an hour. Never tried electric. You might want to check your elements unless you are patient.

I can tell you from my cleaning runs that alcohol is easier to condense than water. Steaming out, i hit over 200F for a while before starting my pump.
Lord, give me patience, but give it to me NOW!

2" x 38" Bokakob column head, 15 gallon keg boiler
joeymac
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by joeymac »

Just as a point of comparison, I'm running 5500W and it takes about 30min to bring 12 gallons in an uninsulated keg from 70F up to a boil.

If you're actually running 2250W (2X 4500w on 120V) it should take you about 75 minutes to reach boiling. I can't imagine your column taking 3.5 hours to heat up. How long is the column and what is it packed with?? Perhaps try insulating the column. Home Depot sells 2" round fiberglass pipe insulation with paper foil backing very cheap... it just slips around the column.

As for you coils... what are your the flow rates on it? Hook it up to your water and see how long it takes to fill a 1 gallon jug.
What is the diameter of the outer coils?
What is the diameter of the inner coils?
What is the temperature of your cooling water?

Another example comparison, my 2"x10" condenser coil can knock down full power circulating 2.7 LPM water even when input gets as hot as 35C/95F. It knocks down a ton more if I feed it proper cool water. I recirculate my water from a bucket with a pump, so it can get quite warm if I let it.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by cat herder »

I tested the flow rate: 0.6 gal/min. The coil was quite cool, but it sounds like that won't be good enough. I used refrigerator coil on it. It is 1/4 inch OD.

I multimetered both elements and they tested fine. Then I tried heating the boiler running each one singly. The old one took 3x longer than the new one. Time to replace that one.
Last edited by cat herder on Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
StillerBoy
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by StillerBoy »

cat herder wrote:Then I tried heating the boiler running each one singly. The old one took 3x longer than the new one. Time to replace that one.
Good.. resolved one issue.. that element is on it way out :thumbdown:
cat herder wrote:I tested the flow rate: 1.8 gal/min. The coil was quite cool, but it sounds like that won't be good enough. I used refrigerator coil on it. It is 1/4 inch OD.
The test sounds good, but not efficient in my view,but it should have knock down the vapour you were producing, which wasn't much.. when you did the first run, did you run the condenser at the full rate.. if it was efficient, you wouldn't need more than a little more than a liter per minute..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
cat herder
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by cat herder »

StillerBoy wrote:
cat herder wrote:Then I tried heating the boiler running each one singly. The old one took 3x longer than the new one. Time to replace that one.
Good.. resolved one issue.. that element is on it way out :thumbdown:
cat herder wrote:I tested the flow rate: 1.8 gal/min. The coil was quite cool, but it sounds like that won't be good enough. I used refrigerator coil on it. It is 1/4 inch OD.
The test sounds good, but not efficient in my view,but it should have knock down the vapour you were producing, which wasn't much.. when you did the first run, did you run the condenser at the full rate.. if it was efficient, you wouldn't need more than a little more than a liter per minute..

Mars
0.6 gpm I meant :?
StillerBoy
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by StillerBoy »

cat herder wrote:0.6 gpm I meant
Not good.. as I stated before "from what I can see, the coils on the outside wrap look quite flat, and not able to see the inside coils"..

When making a new, you may want to try the frozen route to making a coil.. this thread deal with a bigger size coil, but the principle is the same and there are others.. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p7459210

Mars
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by joeymac »

Are you hooked to the water supply from the house (house plumbing) or are you using a water pump like an aquarium pump?

0.6GPM is not great, but it should still knock down your vapor if the water is cool. Try increasing the efficiency of the coils by adding some copper scrubbers into the gaps of the coils. make the vapor path more turbulent.

Once upon a time, I had a pretty weak 8" long 3/16" soft tubing condenser in the top of a 2" column. It couldn't knock down more than 1800W using an aquarium pump that pushed only 1.5 LPM through the coils. Once I switched to using the house water faucet with it's superior pressure, I was able to knock down a ton more power.
Last edited by joeymac on Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
jb-texshine
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by jb-texshine »

Seems like you might want to buy some csst gas line... I hear its the cats ass for a reflux condenser
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by USACelt »

What kinda breaker you running on that element set up?
My poor math shows those elements at 110 volts would be some where around 21 amps each. With the heat up time you are taking about I suspect only one of those elements is running to its capacity available at 110 volts, if that .
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by cat herder »

UPDATE

I replaced the salvaged element and added scrubbers to the still head/condenser. The latter worked great! Absolutely no steam, except when the condenser had no flow because the tap was off. However the former showed little improvement. It took 3.5 hours for steam to reach the head. Unless someone has a better idea, my next move will be to build a 240v extension cord and run one element off of the clothes dryers outlet.

I don't remember mentioning this before, but I am doing this test run with a packed column. Maybe that's whats causing it to take so long...?
USACelt wrote:What kinda breaker you running on that element set up?
My poor math shows those elements at 110 volts would be some where around 21 amps each. With the heat up time you are taking about I suspect only one of those elements is running to its capacity available at 110 volts, if that .
I am running them off of two seperate 15 amp circuits.
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by joeymac »

No... takes me about 35-45 minutes to boil and maybe another 15-20 minutes to get vapors at the condenser. Although one should fully reflux for 45-60 minutes to get a good equilibrium and fractionation before taking off any output.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
StillerBoy
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by StillerBoy »

cat herder wrote:I replaced the salvaged element
What wattage is the element you replaced for the salvaged one with..
cat herder wrote: I scrapped one from an old water heater so I'll pull that one out and test it.
Hot water tank element are normally only 3000 watts.. so if you are using used water tank element, that may explain why your heat up time is long.. on 120v that equals to 750 watt or on 2, 1400 watts..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

– Albert Einstein
cat herder
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Re: Boka water test questions

Post by cat herder »

I replaced the salvaged element with a new 4500w element. The boiler is running two of them both are brand new.
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