I don't manage to help a member in the German speaking forum and his English is not good enough (he says that). So I ask here for him.
Just a normal 2" boka with scrubbies on a 30l KEG and a propane burner. An added reflux return, which perhaps cause some problems but not all problems.
I never distilled with propane, perhaps that's why I can't help him.
The main question:
Why does he get with this heavy burner only such little steam?
Here a picture:
Here a video. Water run with maximum setting on the burner, without column and packing and without the reflux return construction, only the normal slanted plates:
When you look at the flame, is this maximum? The burner has "8.8kW".
With open valve he gets 240ml per 5min water distillate. No reflux is visible through the sight glass. No leaks. Is that normal? Here you can see, for 239ml per 5min 1.7kW would suffice:
Of course 8.8kW propane is not 8.8kW in the boiler and he looses much without any insulation. But so much?
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
Ya, a high pressure regulator will help, so would a better burner. That is a very low btu burner.
If he puts a metal barrel around his boiler and burner, he will be able to make the system way more efficient. He would be making use of more of the energy.
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
yakattack wrote:If he puts a metal barrel around his boiler and burner, he will be able to make the system way more efficient. He would be making use of more of the energy.
Since I use propane, too, I have always been interested in heat shrouds, but I couldn't find any examples. Do you have any picture or schematics?
So this flame and this low distillate output match up?
"low btu burner": We don't have btu here, we have kW. 8.8kW is 30000 btu (please correct me if I am wrong). 30000 btu would be ok?
I don't know, which pressure reducer he has. How much mbar and kg/h does he need for such a burner or for this still? (Edit: I think 50mbar and 1.5kg/h is normal here)
I think his burner is this one: http://shop.selzam.ch/de/artikel/F03085 ... Nqc66JBrIU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
8800W
640g/h
30mbar
What do you think? Is it usable? Is it possible and safe to use more than 640g/h or 30mbar by connecting a different pressure reducer?
Do you have a link to "a better burner" you would consider good for his still? A link with some technical data please.
Please correct me and be gentle, if I am writing nonsense. I never had a burner.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
yakattack wrote:If he puts a metal barrel around his boiler and burner, he will be able to make the system way more efficient. He would be making use of more of the energy.
Since I use propane, too, I have always been interested in heat shrouds, but I couldn't find any examples. Do you have any picture or schematics?
I have one in my brothers garage. Hasn't been used since I went electric. I am going over there tonight to get my scaffold for a job so if I remember I will take pics.
Der wo - it ok for the job and size of still. If he makes a shroud he will get a gain of about 1 /3rd properly insulated. A hp regulator will give the burner a boost, but will burn a lot more fuel.
It looks like what I started with to be honest. And yes I found it slow too. It was better when I made he shroud.
Also by the video it almost looks like his propane bottle is running low, but I could be wrong there. Also he should have an air gate that he can adjust, that flame can go a bit hotter then that.
I don't have any links but here is a really nice one floating around. Looks bad ass and has one of the highest outputs I've seen. If I can find it later I will.
Yak
HDNB wrote: The trick here is to learn what leads to a stalled mash....and quit doing that.
I think a HP regulator will sort out most isuues, best reviews I have read and on the Italian spiral burners. I have a friend that swears by his. As for heat shrouds most guys just use a 220 liter steel drum cut down, back when pot stilling in my old toolshed I simply had a brick hearth and fibreglass isultation wrapped around the keg. I would reflux like this simply with and ultra pure (similar to a bokka) modified with a column extension on the same keg. Very slow but worked fine. I now use a HP reg on a three ring burner with a dry stacked brick hearth and heat shield. I' m not really happy with my cheap crappy burner as I feel it uses to much gas for the energy it produces but othwise it works fine.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.Benjamin Franklin
A heat shroud is fine tuning he can think about after everything is rolling. I am aware that a shroud has to end under liquid level.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
thecroweater wrote:.... I simply had a brick hearth and fibreglass isultation wrapped around the keg. .
Thats what I got Crow and it works well .
+1 on the HP reg , that first one you linked looks good der wo.
TBQH , as far as running that reflux still , the power available looks pretty close to the upper limit anyway . What I'm saying is if you got an HP reg you probably would have to dial it back down to where it is now otherwise you'd be pretty close to flooding .
For stripping that's a different story ...you need more power ....but then the limiting factor may be the bore in the needle valve .....which may not allow much more than what you are getting now anyway .
Yummyrum wrote:TBQH , as far as running that reflux still , the power available looks pretty close to the upper limit anyway . What I'm saying is if you got an HP reg you probably would have to dial it back down to where it is now otherwise you'd be pretty close to flooding .
For stripping that's a different story ...you need more power ....but then the limiting factor may be the bore in the needle valve .....which may not allow much more than what you are getting now anyway .
Yes yummyrum. This is the second problem.
Here a video of my still. A test run with a small glass column, water or vinegar, I don't remember and I don't have numbers. 2", hotplate 2kW, 100% reflux (now I use 2.6kW normally, without flooding):
It looks like I get much more than him. It's SPP packing, so perhaps I can use more wattage than him with scrubbies.
Here a video from his still, wine distillation, 100% reflux:
Not much distilate, but generally it looks normal. But a bit more steam and the column floods.
Here at first only small flame, then turn the power up.
He says, the scrubbies are very loose packed. That's all I know. What do you think? Is this already the maximum at 2" with scrubbies?
The third problem is, that the needle valve is open in this video! But you see, how little distillate he gets. Normally he should get really much distillate until the the column is unflooded again. Or of course don't get any flooding because of the open valve. I think the problem is his reflux return construction with the curl at the end (I mentioned it in another thread. Sorry for the repeat. But it belongs here better han in the other thread):
(Just for info: He doesn't use this brass piece you see on the pic in any of the videos. It was an experiment.)
I try to convince him to cut the curl off. And if there is still a problem, to drill a small hole in the liebig near the valve. Sergiolis and bearriver were successful with such constructions.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
And here you can see the flooding, wine distilation, with closed needle valve. And you can see the flame:
Not much power for flooding a 2" in my opinion.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
At first I thought the "pig tail" liquid return was limiting the rate of return. But looking at the 100% reflux video, it is obvious that it is working adequately. What is the ID of the liquid takeoff from the slant plates (I assume the same as the liquid return to the column)? It looks like there is a good flow area, with minimal restriction, for the liquid to flow out of the plates.
The issue of the low production rate points to a constriction in the LM valve. When fully open, what is the bore of the opening? I suspect it is less than 25% of the liquid line from the plates. As a result, the liquid will seek to flow in the path of least resistance back to the column (through the liquid return).
As for the "flooding sensitivity", the suspect there is the packing. Although you've stated that the scrubbies are loosely packed, that can be subjective. Have you (personally) inspected his packing density? What if it was completely removed....does the product flow rate increase as it very well should?
What I've learned when troubleshooting, is to isolate the condition from the other problems. Then work to correct it one thing at a time. That way, the feedback will (hopefully) point you in the best direction.
ss
edited to add - Looking again at the RC top, there is a cap. Does that cap have a vent as it should? This wouldn't cause the conditions in question, but it would still cause concern for safe operation.
I think I'd run a measured quantity of water, run off say 2 litres, then measure the remaining water in the cylinder to make sure you are not losing steam.
If that was ok, then try an electric boiler with the same column, see whether a couple of Kw of electric got a proper discharge rate.
If both of those were ok, then the heat transfer from the flame must be suspect.
At first I thought the "pig tail" liquid return was limiting the rate of return. But looking at the 100% reflux video, it is obvious that it is working adequately. What is the ID of the liquid takeoff from the slant plates (I assume the same as the liquid return to the column)? It looks like there is a good flow area, with minimal restriction, for the liquid to flow out of the plates. It's ID 6mm everywhere (Edit: The curl is OD 6mm). Because he has with little flame and open valve a flooding column, I think it doesn't work properly. The return causes, that the distillate doesn't flow to and through the valve at least at this extreme situation
The issue of the low production rate points to a constriction in the LM valve. When fully open, what is the bore of the opening? I suspect it is less than 25% of the liquid line from the plates. As a result, the liquid will seek to flow in the path of least resistance back to the column (through the liquid return). The bore is 4.3mm. The same like with my LM. It's way enough. The first video of the thread is with full power and the valve full open. No reflux is visible. So at least at this low flame this bore is ok.
As for the "flooding sensitivity", the suspect there is the packing. Although you've stated that the scrubbies are loosely packed, that can be subjective. Have you (personally) inspected his packing density? What if it was completely removed....does the product flow rate increase as it very well should? Not inspected. But yes, the behaviour of the still points clearly in that direction. It's not possible for me to inspect it unfortunately. When complete removed, of course it doesn't flood. And then he is able to control between 0 and 100% reflux. But the flow rate is low, probably because of the low flame.
What I've learned when troubleshooting, is to isolate the condition from the other problems. Then work to correct it one thing at a time. That way, the feedback will (hopefully) point you in the best direction. Yes. I told him to run it next time without the return but with packing. The only trial without the return (first video) was without packing, what means without flooding. I want to see, if he can suck off the flooding with an open valve.
ss
edited to add - Looking again at the RC top, there is a cap. Does that cap have a vent as it should? This wouldn't cause the conditions in question, but it would still cause concern for safe operation. It has a ID 6mm vent tube.
Thanks still_stirrin.
Last edited by der wo on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
I think I'd run a measured quantity of water, run off say 2 litres, then measure the remaining water in the cylinder to make sure you are not losing steam.
If that was ok, then try an electric boiler with the same column, see whether a couple of Kw of electric got a proper discharge rate.
If both of those were ok, then the heat transfer from the flame must be suspect.
At least during the wine run he would smell a leak. I asked him. No smell. And generally the still looks solid I think. And I think he checked everything with a mirror or spoon.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
When faults are difficult to diagnose, it is often advisable to split the apparatus up so that the parts can be tested separately. The boiler is shown in the open air and any smell may or may not be readily apparent. However, leakage is the easiest thing to rule out and doing so would appear logical.
Testing the boiler / heat source and the column separately was the secaond stage of my suggested testing method.
However, if we're just having a guess, I'll put my money on the bottom of the keg being too far away from the flame. The Ring seems to be designed for a flat bottomed pan of some sort but the rim on the keg is holding the bottom of the boiler away from the "Hot point" of the flames by some 62 mm ?
Pikey wrote:However, if we're just having a guess, I'll put my money on the bottom of the keg being too far away from the flame. The Ring seems to be designed for a flat bottomed pan of some sort but the rim on the keg is holding the bottom of the boiler away from the "Hot point" of the flames by some 62 mm ?
Yes. The builder thought about this too. But isn't it just a normal KEG on a normal burner? I don't know KEGs and burners, sorry.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
I don't run propane either, but I do have some knowledge of cooking on propane on the boat. Always the bottoms of the pans are flat and the flat part sits flat on the top of the burner. The spacings are designed for maximum heat at the point where the bottom of the pan is (ie the top of the cast iron construction).
Propane gives a flame of around 700 C I believe, but the position of the flame on the workpiece (Think soldering) is critical for maximum heat. 62 mm away from the hot point the temperature will have dropped a lot.
As I said - Just my guess, but that's where my money is !
He can test it with a saucepan of water - see how long it takes to boil 2 litres of water. Then Make a stand to hold the pan 62 mm (or whatever the distance is) above the flame and time it again !
Edit - PS a uk brick is 62 mm on the shortest dimension. 3 of thos laid in a triangle on top of teh burner, should give the distance and also mimic the cowl effect of the keg rim within reason.
Regarding flooding in a 2" scrubbies , I have a 2400 w electric element and mine is just on the brink at this power .Most of the time its OK but occasionally it will start to flood and I have to turn it down a bit . So 2200W is really good for mine .
Looking at all those videos , the output and reflux is erratic , it spits and spurts .It is not a smooth flow like I get and I saw in your Video .
This is making me suspicious of the collection cup/plate ....what is it he has in there ?
I wonder if the gap around the collection cup might be too small that the vapour is having a hard time getting around it
That pigtail is a vapour/fluid lock but I wonder if vapour is blowing up that reflux tube because its easier than getting past the collection cup.With vapour blowing up the reflux tube it might explain why the output is low and the reflux is so spurty .I suspect that the bulk of the reflux is overflowing the collection cup and running down the walls
With this external reflux tube design the vapour/fluid lock ( I never know which one to call it ) needs to be large ( hold a lot of fluid ) so there is no tendency for vapour to push up it
Pikey wrote:I don't run propane either, but I do have some knowledge of cooking on propane on the boat. Always the bottoms of the pans are flat and the flat part sits flat on the top of the burner. The spacings are designed for maximum heat at the point where the bottom of the pan is (ie the top of the cast iron construction).
Propane gives a flame of around 700 C I believe, but the position of the flame on the workpiece (Think soldering) is critical for maximum heat. 62 mm away from the hot point the temperature will have dropped a lot.
As I said - Just my guess, but that's where my money is !
Pikey wrote:He can test it with a saucepan of water - see how long it takes to boil 2 litres of water. Then Make a stand to hold the pan 62 mm (or whatever the distance is) above the flame and time it again !
Edit - PS a uk brick is 62 mm on the shortest dimension. 3 of thos laid in a triangle on top of teh burner, should give the distance and also mimic the cowl effect of the keg rim within reason.
Yes. But first he should find out, if he needs a hp regulator. It would produce a larger flame. And then perhaps the distance is ok.
Pikey wrote:
der wo wrote:......... But isn't it just a normal KEG on a normal burner? I don't know KEGs and burners, sorry.
But is it "normal" to put a keg on a gas ring ?
At least here it is normal I think?
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
Regarding flooding in a 2" scrubbies , I have a 2400 w electric element and mine is just on the brink at this power .Most of the time its OK but occasionally it will start to flood and I have to turn it down a bit . So 2200W is really good for mine .2200W with scrubbies?
Looking at all those videos , the output and reflux is erratic , it spits and spurts .It is not a smooth flow like I get and I saw in your Video .Yes
This is making me suspicious of the collection cup/plate ....what is it he has in there ?
I wonder if the gap around the collection cup might be too small that the vapour is having a hard time getting around it Hm. I have to ask him. It's not visible on the pics unfortunately. Currently I think, it's because of the pigtail.
That pigtail is a vapour/fluid lock but I wonder if vapour is blowing up that reflux tube because its easier than getting past the collection cup.With vapour blowing up the reflux tube it might explain why the output is low and the reflux is so spurty .I suspect that the bulk of the reflux is overflowing the collection cup and running down the walls Because he run it once without the return (overflow over the plates), he knows how it looks in the sight glass, when it flows down the plates. But in the videos where the column floods, I don't think he can see what all happens here. But anyway, he doesn't loose something. If there is only little output and no visible reflux, it's simply not enough steam.
With this external reflux tube design the vapour/fluid lock ( I never know which one to call it ) needs to be large ( hold a lot of fluid ) so there is no tendency for vapour to push up it Or it perhaps needs a vent hole at the top of the pigtail. Like described in Hooks Still Drawings pdf.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
Why does he have an external return? An external return offers a smaller pool (less smearing), a better temp measurement (better isolated from the cold reflux) and in theory flooding is less likely (in practice not, because the slanted plates are not the flooding point. The packing is.). http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=47184 http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=64632
and Hooks still drawings pdf.
Reason I ask is a boka works without an external return. The slant plates if done properly should dis tribute the reflux down the packing on its own.
I'm willing to bet that if he caps the return line, and runs the boka like the instructions on this forum that he will have better results. He did this once (first video). Unfortunately without packing. So no flooding was reached of course. I told him, his next trial should be without return and with packing.
I honestly didn't see the return line before yummyrum pointed it out. TsTsTs
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
der wo wrote:
.........Yes. But first he should find out, if he needs a hp regulator. It would produce a larger flame. And then perhaps the distance is ok.
I have a blow torch with a variable regulator and also used to have oxy-acetylene.
My experience is that when the pressure is turned up on these, the flame does not get much bigger. More intense yes, but longer ? - not really.
The pan test is easy to set up, very cheap to try and quick.
I wonder if any of our members with propane apparatus would like to comment ?
Pikey wrote:My experience is that when the pressure is turned up on these, the flame does not get much bigger. More intense yes, but longer ? - not really. I think you are right.
The pan test is easy to set up, very cheap to try and quick. Yes. I am sure he reads here. The German speaking forum is slow. It's like you send an email to the admin and he publishes it when he has time for it. I am currently waiting for answers from him before I will ask new ones. There is a lot of new info for him here since I read the last word from him.
I wonder if any of our members with propane apparatus would like to comment ? Yes. You also don't run propane. So forgive me, that I am not so entusiastic about your idea at the moment. Perhaps a heat shroud would also kill this problem too.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure.- Rosa Luxemburg
Thats what I got Crow and it works well .
