How important are removable plates
Moderator: Site Moderator
How important are removable plates
if I have sight glasses just above all of the plates?
I'm considering about picking up a 12" or 18" long stainless sanitary spool/tube that is 3" or 4" diameter and putting about 3-4 perforated plates with 1/2" downcomers in it just to make whiskeys and spirits with flavor. I already have a tall packed column for neutrals. Since sanitary flanges and clamps get expensive quick, I was thinking the copper plates could be soldered directly into the spool tube very easily. Then I could install small sight glasses like this and they could also be used for access to clean when needed.
Those little sight glasses have a 1.625" inside open diameter and use a 1.75" piece of glass... so you can easily spray water or get brushes in there. Provided that I don't foam or puke a wash, cleaning should only involve a good soaking and rinse anyways.
Edited to add:
After that decision, the other big variable is using a 3" or 4" diameter. Build difficulty would be the same for either but a 4" is a more area than 3" and will require a lot more power. I'm only running a 15 gallon boiler with a 5500W element and I read somewhere here that 30w per hole is about the required power and most 3" plates already have 100-120 holes (3000w-3500w). So I'm not sure if I even have enough power for a 4" column and if I do would I just end up smearing my cuts because of all the power in that small 15gal boiler?
I'm considering about picking up a 12" or 18" long stainless sanitary spool/tube that is 3" or 4" diameter and putting about 3-4 perforated plates with 1/2" downcomers in it just to make whiskeys and spirits with flavor. I already have a tall packed column for neutrals. Since sanitary flanges and clamps get expensive quick, I was thinking the copper plates could be soldered directly into the spool tube very easily. Then I could install small sight glasses like this and they could also be used for access to clean when needed.
Those little sight glasses have a 1.625" inside open diameter and use a 1.75" piece of glass... so you can easily spray water or get brushes in there. Provided that I don't foam or puke a wash, cleaning should only involve a good soaking and rinse anyways.
Edited to add:
After that decision, the other big variable is using a 3" or 4" diameter. Build difficulty would be the same for either but a 4" is a more area than 3" and will require a lot more power. I'm only running a 15 gallon boiler with a 5500W element and I read somewhere here that 30w per hole is about the required power and most 3" plates already have 100-120 holes (3000w-3500w). So I'm not sure if I even have enough power for a 4" column and if I do would I just end up smearing my cuts because of all the power in that small 15gal boiler?
Last edited by joeymac on Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
- Swedish Pride
- Site Donor
- Posts: 2644
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:16 am
- Location: Emerald Isle
Re: How important are removable plates
it's only important if you want to be able to experiment with different plate count.
don't think to many people break it down to clean it.
don't think to many people break it down to clean it.
Don't be a dick
Re: How important are removable plates
True, but I would think erring on the smaller side of 3 plates would probably be better. I could always keep flavor while increasing my final ABV by doing a 1.5X distillation in the boiler or even a 2X distillation of low wines. Even adding another plate and sight glass to the top or bottom wouldn't be hard as long as the column had some extra length. But if I start off with too many plates, removing one would be difficult. Most here seem to like 3-4 plates for whiskeys and rums so installing 3 plates with room for a 4th sounds like a safe plan. I have a 40" marble column for neutrals so I'm not worried about getting too crazy with many plates.
My bigger fear is fixing an issue if I get the initial build wrong with holes and sizing. Removing plates to fix something would be difficult.
My bigger fear is fixing an issue if I get the initial build wrong with holes and sizing. Removing plates to fix something would be difficult.
- Attachments
-
- Untitled8.png (9.49 KiB) Viewed 1512 times
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
- Swedish Pride
- Site Donor
- Posts: 2644
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:16 am
- Location: Emerald Isle
Re: How important are removable plates
if you made an ezflange at the bottom you could in theory have a removable plate where you indicated, just need to be a really tight fit to keep the bath from collapsing.
if you use an internal ferrule that's not an option unless you wedge it between the ferrules.
if you use an internal ferrule that's not an option unless you wedge it between the ferrules.
Don't be a dick
- bluefish_dist
- Distiller
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:13 am
- Location: Eastern Ia
Re: How important are removable plates
I run 200 hole plates on 4000w in a 4". I also have run 6000w on the same plates. You should be fine with your setup.
Personally I like the ability to clean plates between runs. Some washes get really funky and really react with the plates. They need a good soak in citric acid and a scrub afterwards.
Personally I like the ability to clean plates between runs. Some washes get really funky and really react with the plates. They need a good soak in citric acid and a scrub afterwards.
Formerly
Dsp-CO-20051
Dsp-CO-20051
Re: How important are removable plates
BlueFish,
I know that this has been asked here before, but if I remember correctly you went from bubble plated to sieve plates. What was your reasoning and your results. Better reflux, cleaner product, or ???
Just trying to get handle on it. I'm running a a system that uses a single barrel for mash/fermenter/thumper then clear beer in boiler, slop in thumper. I'm thinking of adding a plate or 2 on the thumper for a 1 and done process. BTW, Bourbon is 70 steam rolled corn, 20 malted rye, 20 2 row malted barley and irishish is 70 steam rolled barley, 35 2 row malted barley. Thoughts?
I know that this has been asked here before, but if I remember correctly you went from bubble plated to sieve plates. What was your reasoning and your results. Better reflux, cleaner product, or ???
Just trying to get handle on it. I'm running a a system that uses a single barrel for mash/fermenter/thumper then clear beer in boiler, slop in thumper. I'm thinking of adding a plate or 2 on the thumper for a 1 and done process. BTW, Bourbon is 70 steam rolled corn, 20 malted rye, 20 2 row malted barley and irishish is 70 steam rolled barley, 35 2 row malted barley. Thoughts?
- bluefish_dist
- Distiller
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:13 am
- Location: Eastern Ia
Re: How important are removable plates
I went from bubble caps to sieve plates for speed. I was able to add about 20% more power with the sieve plates. I noticed no difference in taste. The sieve plates easily handle power that would flood the bubble caps, also the sieve plates were far cheaper than procaps.
I am lucky in that a good friend has a full cnc mill that I was able to use to make the plates. The 4" take about an hour to machine and the 6" take about 3 hrs. I can stack a up to 4 at a time in the fixture. The outsides were plasma cut which is quick and accurate enough for the outside shape. So for 6 hrs of machine time and $130 of copper I made 9 4" plates and 4 6" plates. That did not include programming which was another 2 hrs. Now I could make more quickly since fixture and programming is done.
Mash bills look pretty good. I have a 60 corn, 30 2 row and 10 malted rye in a barrel right now. It's coming along well.
I am lucky in that a good friend has a full cnc mill that I was able to use to make the plates. The 4" take about an hour to machine and the 6" take about 3 hrs. I can stack a up to 4 at a time in the fixture. The outsides were plasma cut which is quick and accurate enough for the outside shape. So for 6 hrs of machine time and $130 of copper I made 9 4" plates and 4 6" plates. That did not include programming which was another 2 hrs. Now I could make more quickly since fixture and programming is done.
Mash bills look pretty good. I have a 60 corn, 30 2 row and 10 malted rye in a barrel right now. It's coming along well.
Formerly
Dsp-CO-20051
Dsp-CO-20051
Re: How important are removable plates
Im still making mine. Sieve plates and soldered in as seperate units. It was a personal choice, i couldnt say was any option better.
I thought i was wrong once,
But then i found out i was mistaken.
Kill the women, and rape the men.
But then i found out i was mistaken.
Kill the women, and rape the men.
Re: How important are removable plates
Good to know that I can drive 200 hole 4" plates with only 4000-5500 watts.bluefish_dist wrote:I run 200 hole plates on 4000w in a 4". I also have run 6000w on the same plates. You should be fine with your setup.
Personally I like the ability to clean plates between runs. Some washes get really funky and really react with the plates. They need a good soak in citric acid and a scrub afterwards.
How big is your boiler on those 200 hole 4" plates?
I'm assuming you're using something like 2mm holes and 3/4" downcomers? (8% open area)
I usually strip down 12 gallons to 3 gallons of 40% using all 5500W with zero reflux and finish out in about an hour and a half. I'd probably have to run a 2:1 or 3:1 reflux ratio to slow my spirit run down to something reasonable like 4-6 hours. I'm not worried about cleaning because I can pop the sight glass windows out and access the section between each plate. I'm just wondering if there's any great reason not to just solder them in place.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
- bluefish_dist
- Distiller
- Posts: 1502
- Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:13 am
- Location: Eastern Ia
Re: How important are removable plates
I used a #50 drill ~1.8mm and 3/4 down comers. I run them currently on a keg over low wines and my big boiler (way over the limit) with wash/worts. I only have 4000w on my keg since a 5500w element on 208 is only 4kw. The big still runs at 6000w. I am building a 6" to replace the 4" on the big still and plan on running 12kw which should be well under the 30w/hole of 15kw on the 6".
With 6kw and 4" I can pull off of wort/wash at a little over 1gal/hr. So you should be able to pretty much do spirit runs at full power with a 4" and sieve plates on a keg with 1 5.5kw element. While a lot more $$ than a 2" it would let you run a keg in 2-3 hours from turn on to turn off for wash/wort. It's still a long day if you run low wines.
With 6kw and 4" I can pull off of wort/wash at a little over 1gal/hr. So you should be able to pretty much do spirit runs at full power with a 4" and sieve plates on a keg with 1 5.5kw element. While a lot more $$ than a 2" it would let you run a keg in 2-3 hours from turn on to turn off for wash/wort. It's still a long day if you run low wines.
Formerly
Dsp-CO-20051
Dsp-CO-20051
- Swedish Pride
- Site Donor
- Posts: 2644
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:16 am
- Location: Emerald Isle
Re: How important are removable plates
hop to it lad, been at it long enough nowLyonsie wrote:Im still making mine. Sieve plates and soldered in as seperate units. It was a personal choice, i couldnt say was any option better.
Don't be a dick
- Saltbush Bill
- Site Mod
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
- Location: Northern NSW Australia
Re: How important are removable plates
Swedish Pride wrote:hop to it lad, been at it long enough nowLyonsie wrote:Im still making mine. Sieve plates and soldered in as seperate units. It was a personal choice, i couldnt say was any option better.
Re: How important are removable plates
Lol i said it would take a while. Iv another few quid to throw at this yet. I'll suprise ya
I thought i was wrong once,
But then i found out i was mistaken.
Kill the women, and rape the men.
But then i found out i was mistaken.
Kill the women, and rape the men.
- Yummyrum
- Global moderator
- Posts: 7653
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
- Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie
Re: How important are removable plates
Joeymac
Straight up I'd say forget 3" and go 4" . Even those that have had a 4" for a while say they'd like to go 6" .
As for Power , Seems a lot of folk are pushing huge powers into 4" columns . In my experience less is better . I kept getting tails pulling through the run . Logic said run more power , reflux more and that should clean it up ...but no , it made it worse.
The harder you run a plated still the more entrainment you get . That's where the vapour that comes up through a plate doesn't get a chance to fully exchange with the liquid and so it continues up through the next plate where the same thing happens . So what you have is a very inefficient still . Now having a lot of tails through the run might be acceptable for whiskeys , its not so nice for rums and hopeless if you want to make a neutral with a packed section above .
For my still I found it happily runs close to 2400 watts ....that's a fraction of what you have available , you'll be fine with 4" on your 15 gal Keg
As far as being removable , I made mine modular and have tried 2,3 and 4 plates but I'm tending to stick with 4 plates . I think it is good to be able to try less but in reality 2 is a waste of time so 3 with an optional 4th is a good choice . I think your sketch is a good idea with the optional bottom plate .
In that 18" section you should be able to space them at 4.5 " which is good , 5" would be better but you should be right . Not sure if its just the sketch but it looks like the top section is a bit short. If there is a 20" section than go that
When it comes to the practicalities of making this , here's my thoughts .
I have had quite a bit of experience soft lead free soldering stainless to copper and it can be done but it is a bitch to get right . I would be hesitant at trying this unless you have had a bit of practice . If it was copper to copper , I'd say jump in .
Ordinarily with copper to copper you would heat the column on the outside and the heat would travel through and heat the plate and the solder will flash , but you will need so much heat through the stainless that before the copper plate has got hot enough , the stainless will be cooked and the solder will probably ball off it and not flash unless you are painting flux on it flat chat . Sticking the flame inside will be difficult also but might be best to get that copper plate hot first before you try to heat the staino .
another thing you should consider is that with all this heating of the plate , if you soft solder the downcomer , it will invariable melt off while soldering in the plate so you should consider brazing the down comer to the plate first with hard solder so that it will stay there when you soft solder in the plate.
Have you considered a slide in plate tree , they are old school but it would be a hell of a lot easier ....just got to get the plate tolerance tight .
If you do a slide in you might have to slightly modify that sightglass mounting method . you would need to mount them flush .
Straight up I'd say forget 3" and go 4" . Even those that have had a 4" for a while say they'd like to go 6" .
As for Power , Seems a lot of folk are pushing huge powers into 4" columns . In my experience less is better . I kept getting tails pulling through the run . Logic said run more power , reflux more and that should clean it up ...but no , it made it worse.
The harder you run a plated still the more entrainment you get . That's where the vapour that comes up through a plate doesn't get a chance to fully exchange with the liquid and so it continues up through the next plate where the same thing happens . So what you have is a very inefficient still . Now having a lot of tails through the run might be acceptable for whiskeys , its not so nice for rums and hopeless if you want to make a neutral with a packed section above .
For my still I found it happily runs close to 2400 watts ....that's a fraction of what you have available , you'll be fine with 4" on your 15 gal Keg
As far as being removable , I made mine modular and have tried 2,3 and 4 plates but I'm tending to stick with 4 plates . I think it is good to be able to try less but in reality 2 is a waste of time so 3 with an optional 4th is a good choice . I think your sketch is a good idea with the optional bottom plate .
In that 18" section you should be able to space them at 4.5 " which is good , 5" would be better but you should be right . Not sure if its just the sketch but it looks like the top section is a bit short. If there is a 20" section than go that
When it comes to the practicalities of making this , here's my thoughts .
I have had quite a bit of experience soft lead free soldering stainless to copper and it can be done but it is a bitch to get right . I would be hesitant at trying this unless you have had a bit of practice . If it was copper to copper , I'd say jump in .
Ordinarily with copper to copper you would heat the column on the outside and the heat would travel through and heat the plate and the solder will flash , but you will need so much heat through the stainless that before the copper plate has got hot enough , the stainless will be cooked and the solder will probably ball off it and not flash unless you are painting flux on it flat chat . Sticking the flame inside will be difficult also but might be best to get that copper plate hot first before you try to heat the staino .
another thing you should consider is that with all this heating of the plate , if you soft solder the downcomer , it will invariable melt off while soldering in the plate so you should consider brazing the down comer to the plate first with hard solder so that it will stay there when you soft solder in the plate.
Have you considered a slide in plate tree , they are old school but it would be a hell of a lot easier ....just got to get the plate tolerance tight .
If you do a slide in you might have to slightly modify that sightglass mounting method . you would need to mount them flush .
My recommended goto .
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
- Saltbush Bill
- Site Mod
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
- Location: Northern NSW Australia
Re: How important are removable plates
Yummyrum wrote:Straight up I'd say forget 3" and go 4" . Even those that have had a 4" for a while say they'd like to go 6" .
Yummyrum wrote:For my still I found it happily runs close to 2400 watts ....that's a fraction of what you have available ,
All round good post Yummy....so much bullshit gets thrown around about the amount of power Bubblers work well at.
- Yummyrum
- Global moderator
- Posts: 7653
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
- Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie
Re: How important are removable plates
Thanks Salty , I'll stop drinking now
Incidentally while your around , how often have you needed to remove your slide in plate tree and how often have you needed to clean it despite all the UJ and Rum you have put through it in the last what,...5-6 years
Incidentally while your around , how often have you needed to remove your slide in plate tree and how often have you needed to clean it despite all the UJ and Rum you have put through it in the last what,...5-6 years
My recommended goto .
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.ph ... ion_Theory
- Saltbush Bill
- Site Mod
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
- Location: Northern NSW Australia
Re: How important are removable plates
Have never "needed to "..but have done a couple of times. More so to fine tune things rather than to clean it.
I did clean it once in that time .....tipped it upside down and filled it with hot dunder..left it for an hour and rinsed it out by squirting with a garden hose....looked like a new still inside after that.
Had no real reason for cleaning it at the time ...just did it to see what shiny insides looked like
I did clean it once in that time .....tipped it upside down and filled it with hot dunder..left it for an hour and rinsed it out by squirting with a garden hose....looked like a new still inside after that.
Had no real reason for cleaning it at the time ...just did it to see what shiny insides looked like
Re: How important are removable plates
Thanks for the detailed info yummyrum.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.
Re: How important are removable plates
Just looking at your build, you could service 3 plates for just one extra flange, right? If the middle was a bit longer to accommodate it.