Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

[der wo]

Then after a few years when my vodka is untouhable go to the flute.

Why? What's wrong with your 2" LM? Too slow? So why not a 3" LM with not too small valve?

[bluefish_dist]

If someone would like to design an experiment comparing the two I am willing to run it. I have a 4" 3 plate column and a 4" packed with ~18" of marbles that I can run on a keg still with the same lm/vm head. The only thing I can't do is run a super tall plated column as I don't own that many plated sections. I do 85 gallon ferments, so I can do a single ferment and run several still runs that are the same.

[LWTCS]

As far as my experiences have gone, I can't get the same flavour from a packed column as I do with a plated column. I'm talking straight off the still, no blending, which is why I prefer them. And the versatility. It's hard to explain the taste from plates, it's kind of more complex, reminded kind of taste, only way to appreciate it is to experience it. That's just my view, everyone has different reasons.

But why? Perhaps you rectified too much with your packed column? Perhaps you like the inefficiency of your plates? But why you can't have the same good tasting inefficiency with packing by rectifying less?

You see no arguments? Opinions?

Are you saying that you don't understand that plated columns do indeed have a wider operating range and need to see a citation ?

I see no arguments. Only opinions. I don't know, how the the operating range of plated columns can be wider. I don't want a citation of an opinion, but a proof or at least solid arguments.

So then are you also saying that you don't understand why some structured packing materials also have different turndown ratios just as different "actual" plate systems have different turndown ratios?

[der wo]

"Turndown ratio- the flexibility to adjust the output purity by using the reflux ratio.

So turndown ratio and reflux ratio are the same?
Of course you can control the reflux ratio with packing exactly the same like with plates.

So then are you also saying that you don't understand why some structured packing materials also have different turndown ratios just as different "actual" plate systems have different turndown ratios?

So turndown ratio and reflux ratio are not the same?
Of course you can influence the behaviour of a still with parameters for example like what size the holes in the plates have or what size the SPP has. Or column diameter and length, number of plates, wattage... What do you want to say?

[Swedish Pride]

stop trying to pick a fight der wo, you might not mean it but thats the way its coming across

[DAD300]

Hmmm...bit late.

I have some observations, that I think I've stated elsewhere and some new.

I have SPP in three sizes and have ran it in three sizes of columns (2", 3", 4") as CCVM take-off. As the column gets larger diameter, the SPP (or an other packing) must get larger also in order to maintain a relative performance. Also, I find another advantage to the larger diameters than just throughput.

Appropriately sized SPP or Helical packing will not crush under it's own weight. As the size increases the wire dia or wall thickness has to increase in proportion. I think you could d the same with mesh. SS Scrub pads are o.k. in 2-3" columns, but in any larger and the wire dian would have to be heavier or the SS Scrubbies would have to be made into cartridges that supported the one above.

As the column dia increases I get better performance from shorter columns. i.e. a 2" column, filled with appropriately sized SPP, will need to be 30" tall to optimize 10% abv to azeo throughput. A 3" about 28" and a 4" about 24" will do the same. Seems the larger diameter supports more packing surface area and the SSP does a great job of spreading the vapor rather than channeling. Larger diameters require more power and more potential vapor from the pot. Of course with even more power, taller can be faster.

A 4" SPP packed column over a beer keg is almost not realistic, as a 10% abv charge in the boiler doesn't have enough alcohol in it to charge the column properly. Probably fine with appropriately sized SS mesh.

Pro for the Bubble Cap Brigade...I now have an large column with four bubble cap plates. 10% abv to 86% at crazy fast speeds and seems more repeatable. It's almost as easy as a stripping run.

[LWTCS]

No sorry.
Turn Down Ratio and Reflux Ratio are not at all the same.

From Wiki:
Turndown ratio refers to the width of the operational range of a device, and is defined as the ratio of the maximum capacity to minimum capacity. For example, a device with a maximum output of 10 units and a minimum output of 2 units has a turndown ratio of 5.

Also:
The ratio between minimum vapor load to maximum vapor load, thus it indirectly defines both the operating range (low or high vapor flow rates) and also the minimum capacity before (theoretical or actual) trays start to leak.

The plated column simply has a wider operating range.

Just trying to communicate why the plated column is often the tool of choice.
Not sure how many more trusted members that have run both systems need to come on and testify that there are clear benefits to running the plated column over the packed column. And bear in mind that I am not at all saying the packed column does not offer a benefit.

[cranky]

As a main proponent of the packed column for neutral I feel I must chime in yet again I'm really trying to leave this thread alone because pretty much I've said my peace but I still see people still claiming packed columns go drip drip drip all day and that just isn't true of mine. I have a 3.5" I.D. borosilicate tube packed with lava rock and my takeoff rate is a pint of 94% every 7.5 minutes. I can easily keep the same purity and increase that speed to a pint every 5 minutes. That means I can take off as fast as 1.5 gallons per hour. This is every bit as fast as anything I've ever seen a flute person claim from a 4 inch flute and I'm running 3.5" rather than 4". I choose a pint every 7.5 minutes because that is the speed I like to run at because it gives me time to do something besides sit and stare at my collection jars, like come on here and chat. Yes I collect everything in pint jars and always have, I don't like making neutral decisions on the fly just like I don't make any other decisions on the fly. I also collect from my pot still at a pint every 7.5 minutes even though I could go as fast as a quart every 4.5 minutes on that and yep I collect from my flute at roughly the same speed. My 3.3" ID flute can't go any faster though.

Having run everything the past year in the flute I have returned to the pot still for my apple brandy. I feel it gave better results and made cuts much easier. My flute likes to draw out the tails, that's just the way it runs, it will sit there and run just fine until the tails then drop down to 45% and sit there and chug away at that for quite some time unless I restabilize to compress them. Personally I think it makes a fine product for grain based things and rum, it even worked well for pear brandy where the flavor was right at the hearts tails transition. I don't see any point in trying to force it to do anything else and don't feel it is worth the trouble to get a single bottle or maybe two of neutral from a single run. I only have a 15.5 gallon boiler and like getting a years worth of neutral from my neutral runs. Now if I had a much larger boiler I might think differently about that.

I'm sure packing makes a difference and rock and marbles don't compress. Like I said, I use lava rock which isn't going to compress. I like lava rock and unless someone decides to give me some other form of packing to try I don't see me changing it out anytime in the foreseeable future. I certainly understand that the big guys might want do it differently because a big packed column isn't practical above a certain size but we aren't dealing with above hobby size so mostly 4" is the biggest thing we deal with.

Now as always seems to happen in threads that ask if there as an advantage to using a flute to make neutral over a packed column people love to talk about how versatile the flute is for this or that and how great it is for making flavored products but quite frankly that wasn't really answering the OPs question. I still haven't seen any valid reasons put forth for using a flute for neutral instead of an equally sized packed column except maybe weight. As I said, the statements about drip drip drip are simply wrong in my case but I will say my big packed column is quite heavy and can be difficult to place on top of my boiler by myself.

Now

As the column dia increases I get better performance from shorter columns. i.e. a 2" column, filled with appropriately sized SPP, will need to be 30" tall to optimize 10% abv to azeo throughput. A 3" about 28" and a 4" about 24" will do the same. Seems the larger diameter supports more packing surface area and the SSP does a great job of spreading the vapor rather than channeling. Larger diameters require more power and more potential vapor from the pot. Of course with even more power, taller can be faster.

if I read that bit posted by DAD correctly he is saying you can achieve neutral from just that packed section you guys are putting on top of your flutes alone.

[der wo]

No sorry.
Turn Down Ratio and Reflux Ratio are not at all the same.

From Wiki:
Turndown ratio refers to the width of the operational range of a device, and is defined as the ratio of the maximum capacity to minimum capacity. For example, a device with a maximum output of 10 units and a minimum output of 2 units has a turndown ratio of 5.

Also:
The ratio between minimum vapor load to maximum vapor load, thus it indirectly defines both the operating range (low or high vapor flow rates) and also the minimum capacity before (theoretical or actual) trays start to leak.

The plated column simply has a wider operating range.

Just trying to communicate why the plated column is often the tool of choice.
Not sure how many more trusted members that have run both systems need to come on and testify that there are clear benefits to running the plated column over the packed column. And bear in mind that I am not at all saying the packed column does not offer a benefit.

Turndown ratio is a new term here. I don't find it with hd google search. Even in the long flute threads noone wrote about turndown ratio. So if it is the reason that a plated column is better for flavored spirits than a packed column, it is total new information here. Or it's only a new name.

Ok, turndown ratio is the ratio of minimum and maximum vapor load.
Of course in any column (plated or packed) where is no liquid there is vapor. If the column is insulated and the rc off, there will be almost 100% vapor and 0% liquid, regardless of plates or packing. This point is identical in both systems. Both have a maximum vapor load of 100%.
So the difference you are writing about has to be the minimum vapor load (the maximum liquid load), the point where destructive flooding starts. Do you mean, that you can have proportional more liquid in a plated column than in a packed column without getting problems? But when we never reach this flooding point at 100% reflux, for example by choosing an appropriate wattage for my packed column, where is the problem? Why is there an advantage with more liquid in the column? Because it causes more entrainment? But I can have much entrainment with a packed column too. Perhaps more entrainment. Because I need less column heigth for the same purity and I have a narrower column. Entrainment depends mainly on the column height and the vapor speed (wattage and column diameter). With a short column filled with very heigth efficient packing like SPP I can get a high purity AND much entrainment, when I run it at a wattage just below flooding. I use for my whisky spirit runs a 2" column only 50cm long. But honestly I am not sure if the taste is much different from the runs with my 1m column. From my practical experience entrainment is overrated (but never did a side by side experiment). The only point I see clearly is, that I can switch faster from high abv to low abv after slow collecting the foreshots with a short column.
So, only regarding entrainment, a packed column should be better for whisky and worse for brandy and neutral.

[thecroweater]

worst for neutral without a packed section yeah that's not a crazy statement, not for normal hobby 6 plates or less columns anyway. Worse for brandy , I've ran brandy through a pot through a packed column and through a plated column with various numbers of plates. The column wins hands down and when I say wins I mean its much much much better. Its cleaner fuller favoured and can be ran reasonably quick , that is way way way faster that a reflux detuned or not and and still be quicker than double distilling with a pot. These stills are known as futes, plated columns trayed still and also German brandy stills, im really thinking if you build one your perseption of so many things will damatically change.Of cause all this is way off topic

[Refluxed]

Thank you everyone for your contributions. I would like to thank Odin in particular, for his lengthy post about his experiences, taking the time to articulate things in a way that I found easy to digest. Much appreciated - I understand it can be time consuming to do.

@Croweater - my mind wasn't made up, that was the problem. My heart was pulling me in the direction of a flute, which was causing my mind to only think about ways to construct flutes, even though what I was reading didn't seem to indicate any significant advantage for me to use a flute. If there is a compelling practical reason for me to use a flute over a packed column, my heart would get it's wish. As it stands, my mind now has enough information to overrule my heart entirely.

So, last Friday I visited a scrap metal yard. If I had of done this a couple of months ago, that would have been a much easier proposal. We got new legislation come into effect in March that prevents cash being paid by yards for scrap metal. It all has to be done electronically, with the yard keeping details of the sellers, in an effort to prevent trade in stolen metals. As a result, many of the yards have closed already, or have no stock. Which pretty much indicates it was out of control and something needed to be done. But it doesn't help me. Of the yards that remained, none of the big ones did sales to the public (OH&S), and I only found one that specialised in non-ferrous metals, and copper bigger than 20mm.

Anyway, when I got there, the yard was full of stainless and aluminium - nothing else. All their copper and other metals were kept in an area where "we don't let the public in". They didn't mention that when I asked them about copper over the phone. When I asked if he had any 50-100mm copper pipe hidden out there, I was told they don't carry that sort of thing. Except their website has pictures of it. I eventually got him to take me in there (for some unrelated brass), where lo and behold, they did have large diameter copper pipe. But it had all been chopped up into small pieces for recycling the day before. They were really doing everything to try and dissuade small buyers. OH&S, insurance, thieves, and swindlers have mitigated their appetite for such business.

All I could find in the yard to use for a still was a 1.8m length of 50mm stainless steel pipe, with a triclover flange on one end, and a 90 degree bend on the other. It has a sticker on it that says "dust extraction", and it looks pretty clean inside. I figure remove the bend, then make a column and boko head out of the remainder. I've got a stainless steel specialist down the road, that do triclover fittings every day, who will take a CAD file from me, then laser cut it, clean it, weld it, clean it, and passivate it. Haven't got a quote yet, as I haven't determined the final dimensions.

As for copper, I've thought about adding it in the following ways:
* Copper shim sheet - make a roll, and place it inside the column between the stainless steel and the packing. A similar thing can be done in the boiler, and the head, with the slant plates (at least the collection plate) also covered.
* Wrapping copper wire around the corrugated stainless steel tube of the condenser
* copper wool in the space around the condenser
* long coil made of thin tube copper running from the output valve to the collection vessel.
* I have a lathe, so I could knock out some prismatic packing material from copper wire. First I need to figure out a way to automatically cut it up once formed. Even if only using it as a portion of the packing, that is still a lot of individual pieces to cut. I want to use rocks though, they seem like a great material. I really like the way the liquid moves in cranky's glass column. I haven't seen many good videos of glass columns, but that is the nicest looking reflux I have seen. With the rocks, I might be able to get away with dispersing simple copper rings through it (wind a coil on lathe, then cut all the way down the length of the coil), either in thin layers, or evenly mixed through.
* adding copper pieces to the wash in the boiler

And some answers to questions:

What are you doing for your boiler?
What are you doing for temperature control?
What is your budget?
How much experience do you have?
What access do you have to tools for frabricating a still?
What are you fermenting in?
How long do you stick with hobbies?
Do you already make wine or beer?
Most importantly what is your goal!

Boiler - probably just going to buy a premade 30 litre one. The cost vs. hassle factor cuts in there. I'd have to work too hard to save money, which is pointless. Unless I find something I really don't like about their construction.
Temp control - I will likely build my own variable power supply for the boiler element. Likewise, I can construct my own process-safe temperature probes, and the associated circuitry to read/respond to them, controlling heater power and pumps for cooling. Unless the off-the-shelf options are reasonably priced and fit how I want them.
Budget - the less the better. Less money spent on still = more money to spend on other projects
Experience - With distilling? None! This is my first distillation conversation
Tools - Machine-wise, I own a lathe, mill, and hydraulic press. Respectable collection of hand and power tools. No welding stuff, I'll leave that to the professionals for the foreseeable future, but I plan to get a bigger torch for brazing things. I've become interested in inductive brazing, and electropolishing (applied locally via carbon brush, rather than total acid immersion).
Fermenting - no idea whatsoever yet. But I figure I need all this stuff figured out before I start fermenting anything
Commitment to hobbies - um, let's just say I'm easily distracted. More wishes than time and money. But I do want a source of EtOH that doesn't cost me $180/litre (yes, that is the best I can get rectified spirit for now). I think I'll be committed enough to finish this one.
Making wine or beer - never have, don't really enjoy them, I don't drink them if vodka is available, and I hardly drink that anyway.
My goal - The unachievable pinnacle would be chemically pure azeotropic ethanol. The closer I can get to that, the better.

[cranky]

Refluxed, sounds like a good well thought out plan I believe a 2" (50mm) boka is a very good place to start learning, you can always upgrade as time and budget allows. I will say don't expect super speed out of a 2" anything. my Boka was a bit smaller than that at 1.5" (38mm) and took something like 16 hours switch on to switch off to go through a keg full of low wines. However if you want as pure as you can get and don't mind it being a bit slow it will certainly get the job done. Mine, packed with those same lava rock that later went into my big packed column would sit there all day producing 96+% except in the middle of the run the temperature would drop half a degree and I would get a quart of actual 100% pure alcohol. If the lid was left off the jar the % of those jars would drop back down but it would actually make 100%.

As far as ferments I would recommend starting with Birdwatchers or All-bran, they make very good neutral and are simple to master.

[WIski]

Cranky Wrote'

Mine, packed with those same lava rock that later went into my big packed column would sit there all day producing 96+% except in the middle of the run the temperature would drop half a degree and I would get a quart of actual 100% pure alcohol. If the lid was left off the jar the % of those jars would drop back down but it would actually make 100%.

You need to buy a new alcohol meter or start adjusting your readings for temperature.

Ethanol cannot be concentrated by ordinary distillation to greater than approximately 96% by weight because at that concentration, the vapor has the same ratio of water to alcohol as the liquid, a phenomenon known as azeotropy. The highest concentration of ethanol generally available for human consumption is 190 proof (95% alcohol by volume). Which is about 92.4% ethanol by weight.

Statements like these can discredit all comments made by normally respected members.

[googe]

Well said Wlski. Wish this thread had started with what you just said refluxed, the demon is in the detail. Been good conversation on pros and cons of different stills, need more convos like this, based on FACT, not hear say bullshit. If Anyone is keen to start a thread about it would be great.

[cranky]

Cranky Wrote'

Mine, packed with those same lava rock that later went into my big packed column would sit there all day producing 96+% except in the middle of the run the temperature would drop half a degree and I would get a quart of actual 100% pure alcohol. If the lid was left off the jar the % of those jars would drop back down but it would actually make 100%.

You need to buy a new alcohol meter or start adjusting your readings for temperature.

Ethanol cannot be concentrated by ordinary distillation to greater than approximately 96% by weight because at that concentration, the vapor has the same ratio of water to alcohol as the liquid, a phenomenon known as azeotropy. The highest concentration of ethanol generally available for human consumption is 190 proof (95% alcohol by volume). Which is about 92.4% ethanol by weight.

Statements like these can discredit all comments made by normally respected members.

No offense Wiski but your wrong on that one, yes it can happen, does happen and did happen measured at the proper temp for my alcometer and I am not the only one to encounter this. If you read through the thread Mash Rookie started about lava rock you will find other people who experienced it. When those jars were left open to air overnight they dropped back down to that 95.6% just like it is supposed to. Just like Thecroweater mentions on page 2 of this very thread.

If you put say 600 mm 100mm packed section on those five plates you are really only going to get about 3.5% more abv, somewhere around 95.63% ( I've seen higher but exposed to the atmosphere it will soon return to that) .

Or how about Odin in this thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=53720

ABW-wise the highest you can get is 95.6%. ABV 96.5%. It's the difference between alcohol by weight vs. alcohol by volume.

If you run a column packed with SPP and run it near column flooding, so at maximum energy input and efficiency, you can cheat a bit. Pressure differences can get you to 97%.

Regards, Odin.

That's why it only happened mid run for a short time and the temperature of the vapor would drop that half degree (F) while it was happening then would go back up to the original temp for the rest of the run and % would drop back to 95.6. Now I don't care if you believe me or TCE or Odin or anybody else on the matter or if you feel it discredits me for telling the truth but the truth is the truth it can happen.

[WIski]

No offense Cranky. I don't wish to argue about what you believe may have happened and I respect your right to believe whatever you want.

I believe the really smart guys that have proven the laws of physics and chemistry. If I'm wrong in what I stated, then all of the chemists and physicists and their fancy lab grade testing equipment are all wrong as well. I also believe that anyone reading your beliefs deserve to hear another side that comes from hard science that has proven what is actually possible and impossible. I think a key point to remember is most of us operate with crude measuring devices in garages and work shops and measuring to the type of accuracy needed to make bold statements as you've presented here is really not possible even if you have somehow crossed the thresholds of the proven sciences.

I don't think your packed column is ever going to produce 100% Ethanol. Never Ever....... But I also believe it surely does produce a mighty fine drop!

[cranky]

Again wiski you are completely wrong and it is possible. I don't pretend to know much about the science behind any of this but I believe the prevailing theory at the moment is that somehow a vacuum is created in the column which results in the phenomenon. Claiming it is scientifically impossible just because you don't understand it is just incorrect and the attitude that it discredits people to admit it happens rather than trying to understand why it happens results in people being reluctant to admit it does happen which only harms us. There is no reason we can not achieve higher ABV in the right circumstances however as it is exposed to moisture in the air it drops back to that 95.6% just like it did.

[thecroweater]

This is actually correct, I have personally seen it several times but only in plated hybrids. We had photographs of such results checked with three different hydrometers and a temp probe I can't remember if they are posted here or not, If they are they are in one of mashrookie's threads where the phenomenon was touched on. As said it sometimes occurs but not normally and anhydrous ethanol doesn't last long before returning to to azeotropic ethanol 95.63% abv. I have not seen it for a whole run but generally late heads early to a jar or two into hearts. I don't know the cause or science behind it but I have seen it a few times as high as just over 97% and that should not be possible. Its not something I post on much as I don't enjoy inviting ridicule for results I can't explain.
Now most folks that report this likely have hydro issues or haven't temp corrected but not always

[LWTCS]

Pretty sure Minime also documented subazeotropic vapor temps on a thread over on AD.

Thinking that a precisely dialed in RC could to some degree prematurely collapsed rising vapor. The vapor collaps can create a vacuum like condition at that moment?

On the other hand, we have an electronic parrot that takes vapor temps and extrapolates the temp to abv. The device is set up with a component that allows for elevation changes as boiling points do change with elevations........
But my point is that we do recommend installing the probe far enough away from either condenser to insure that any vapor collaps happening close to the condenser will not affect the electronic parrot read out.
Collapsing vapor will skew the temps and since vapor temps are directly related to abv......if you see my meaning?

[cranky]

Thanks for chiming in and backing me up on this guys I know this can be a tough thing because so many people think it can't happen.

Yes Crow it was the Lets Talk Column Packing thread ( http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 7&start=90 )where you discussed it which is why I knew you had encountered it and hoped you would back me up. I just looked at some notes I did while running the little Boka and you are correct about when it happened, late hearts shortly before the beginning of tails and only a few jars.

My little Boka did it every time I ran it, always at about the same point in the run but looking at my notes it appears it was closer to the end than the middle of the run. It was a very reliable little column. I guess I should explain all the details about how I achieved it, now that we have established it is actually possible. I took the time to write out all the details but the post is very long and probably at this point a bit off topic for this thread so I am considering starting a new thread about it or maybe just dropping it until the next guy calls Bullshit on me.

[Bushman]

Thanks for chiming in and backing me up on this guys I know this can be a tough thing because so many people think it can't happen.

Yes Crow it was the Lets Talk Column Packing thread ( http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 7&start=90 )where you discussed it which is why I knew you had encountered it and hoped you would back me up. I just looked at some notes I did while running the little Boka and you are correct about when it happened, late hearts shortly before the beginning of tails and only a few jars.

My little Boka did it every time I ran it, always at about the same point in the run but looking at my notes it appears it was closer to the end than the middle of the run. It was a very reliable little column. I guess I should explain all the details about how I achieved it, now that we have established it is actually possible. I took the time to write out all the details but the post is very long and probably at this point a bit off topic for this thread so I am considering starting a new thread about it or maybe just dropping it until the next guy calls Bullshit on me.

Please start a new one. I would be interested in your results.

[cranky]

Thanks for chiming in and backing me up on this guys I know this can be a tough thing because so many people think it can't happen.

Yes Crow it was the Lets Talk Column Packing thread ( http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 7&start=90 )where you discussed it which is why I knew you had encountered it and hoped you would back me up. I just looked at some notes I did while running the little Boka and you are correct about when it happened, late hearts shortly before the beginning of tails and only a few jars.

My little Boka did it every time I ran it, always at about the same point in the run but looking at my notes it appears it was closer to the end than the middle of the run. It was a very reliable little column. I guess I should explain all the details about how I achieved it, now that we have established it is actually possible. I took the time to write out all the details but the post is very long and probably at this point a bit off topic for this thread so I am considering starting a new thread about it or maybe just dropping it until the next guy calls Bullshit on me.

Please start a new one. I would be interested in your results.

OK done the whole long drawn out process of how it happened.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=66336