Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

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Refluxed
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Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Refluxed »

Hi,

I want to build a still for neutral spirit. I've been doing my reading, and decided that a column with structured packing would be a better choice than something with plates. I won't be needing to pull fractions, just the purest spirit I can get out of it.

Pros for packed column:
-shorter HETP
-cheap
-Simple design, construction, and maintenance

So, my question, are there any pros for me choosing a plate still over a packed column for neutral spirit? Apart from how cool they look (why I can't stop thinking about them), I can't see any reason why I would.

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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by yakattack »

It depends on what size you're making. If you have access to 4 inch pipe, 5 plates and a 24 inch packed section will give you neutral quickly and still allow you to make any flavored spirit. It also will facilitate fast strip runs.

If you just have 2 or 3 inch pipe then a packed column is going to be a better option. You will however want a simple pot still head for doing fast stripping runs.

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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Opdog »

So, my question, are there any pros for me choosing a plate still over a packed column for neutral spirit? Apart from how cool they look (why I can't stop thinking about them), I can't see any reason why I would.
Because plates are cool!!! Watching them bubble during a run is fun and gives you a sense of accomplishment. That said, the whole point of a plated column is preserve flavor while increasing ABV. So unless you are interested in making whiskey or rum, a plated column is a lot more work for no real benefit, especially since you will still need some sort of packed column on top of the plates to get a true neutral.

I run a modular column with 5 plates and a neutral section. I love my still and am very proud of it. It is a very flexible machine that does a lot of things reasonably well. That said, if neutral is you thing, a packed column with a simple reflux head and a Liebig condenser is a much easier and faster build. I will leave it up to you to decide what head works best for you.

Edit: posted at the same time as Yak. Also what he said.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by frunobulax »

No pros for a plated column over a packed column. Like YAK said, you will need a pot still head for stripping.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Refluxed wrote:I won't be needing to pull fractions, just the purest spirit I can get out of it.
Refluxed wrote:so, my question, are there any pros for me choosing a plate still over a packed column for neutral spirit?
Maybe I'm a bit slow but this confuses me a little , you cant make neutral without sorting the fractions.
Could you please explain what you mean by , "I won't be needing to pull fractions."
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by yakattack »

Correct me if I'm wrong refluxed, but he is talking about having multiple draw off points ( a true fractioning column ) as opposed to a rectifing column ( packed column).

On a hobby scale we really don't run enough plates to run a true fractioning column, mainly because you would run at 10+ plates. Often continuous stills will run like this, allowing the distiller to take a mash that is consistent and continuously fed and pulled off at specific volumes from specific plate sections. Many of the big companies do this.

I could be way off base on his thinking tho, but that I'd how I understood it.

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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Refluxed »

Thanks everyone for you answers. I have some more questions about them.

-What kind of ABV does the 4"x24" 5-plate setup output?

-I'm assuming instead of a stripping run, I could put a single plate between the boiler and packed column? Any downsides to distilling with that approach?
Saltbush Bill wrote:Could you please explain what you mean by , "I won't be needing to pull fractions."
Bill, I may be using the wrong terminology, but I'm referring to plate stills being known as fractionating stills. And in chemistry applications, different "fractions" (elements with different boiling points) can be taken (pulled) off different plates. I basically only want the top "fraction" from this setup.

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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by yakattack »

5 plates and a 24 inch section will pull azeo (95.6 abv).

This is going to depend on your boiler capacity and your mash abv.

If you are running a 15 gallon boiler you will end up having issues pulling off azeo with a 4 inch column as most of the alcohol will stack the column and then be left with mostly water in the boiler. This will cause an unstable column. However take off the packed section , don't run reflux, ( or do) and then strip 2 or 3 mashes, add the low wines ( what you collect from the strip runs) back into the boiler and then run with your packed section.

Now before you go off and build or buy yourself a rig you have a lot of research to do. Hold off on making your still for a bit, read up on the theory of a packed column, go through crankys spoonfeeding thread if you haven't yet and then once you've grasped those concepts move on to the flute tall thread ( make a few pots of coffee for this one. ).

Don't rush this hobby and you will be good.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by bluefish_dist »

A 4" column over a keg works fine if you use low wines. Just did a run like that yesterday 3 plates and 5 ft packed, 12 proof gallon took 9 hrs to run at 190+. Where you could run into issues is if you tried to run that setup over a wash or wort which would only have 1-2 gallons of potential alcohol. That might not be enough to load the column and get any output. Probably OK with 2-3 plates and no packing.

If you can afford it a 4" on a keg runs a lot faster. Down side is price goes way up.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

If I may. I am not going to tell you the perfect column for you. I do want to point you in a good direction, though. A CCVM has more letters in its name than pieces to put together. It's a tall pot still, with a cap on the top. When you want to do neutral, you shove the condenser in ( that takes less time to make than it took me to post this response), and boom. You get pure azeotrope neutral at 2-3 liters an hour. It is the easiest, best build I say for having both a pot still to strip, and a machine to pump out neutral. 36" of lava rock and you're good to go.

Here's the quick adjustment I made to my old pot still to make it a ccvm. You can use what ever condenser you like, I just prefer the sleek shotgun style.

http://w.homedistiller.org/forum/viewto ... 7#p7463748" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Edit, posted same time as blue. You're my boy, blue. :thumbup:

BTW. Ran this weekend. 11 gallons low wines at 30%, 3ft of lava rock, 2" column, pulled azeo the entire time the tails, too. Less than 7 hours, including breakdown. Packed column was made for neutral.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Odin »

frunobulax wrote:No pros for a plated column over a packed column. Like YAK said, you will need a pot still head for stripping.
No need for a stripping head. If you have a big enough needle-valve (4 mm diameter), you can just open it. If you use the right column packing, throughput / open space is like 90 to 92%, so you can use it as a great potstill without touching the column. The slightly increased vapor speeds in the column make for amazing rum and whiskey, since they need some early tails smearing to benefit and to develop their full taste potential.

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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by yakattack »

Odin wrote:
frunobulax wrote:No pros for a plated column over a packed column. Like YAK said, you will need a pot still head for stripping.
No need for a stripping head. If you have a big enough needle-valve (4 mm diameter), you can just open it. If you use the right column packing, throughput / open space is like 90 to 92%, so you can use it as a great potstill without touching the column. The slightly increased vapor speeds in the column make for amazing rum and whiskey, since they need some early tails smearing to benefit and to develop their full taste potential.

Odin.

Is that the through space you are getting on your helicoIL packing Odin?
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Odin »

Yeah. And with SPP as well. SPP for the smaller columns here (2 inch) and the Helicone for 3 to 5 inch columns.

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Refluxed »

Hmm, I hadn't put much thought into the column/boiler volume ratio. I've only had a cursory glance at boilers and washes. I'm learning the system components in the reverse order to their place in the production flow.

Just to clarify, when you guys say "gallon" I assume you mean a US gallon (3.785 litre)?

Whichever way, due to our laws, the volumes for boilers you guys use are way bigger than what I would be comfortable owning. The biggest boilers for sale in home-brewery stores here is 30 litre. And they sell them with the disclaimer that you can only use it as a fermenter, not a boiler. The excise law forbids stills with greater than 5L capacity, and also forbids the distillation of any quantity of alcohol without paying the excise.

In practice, the homebrew stores sell complete distillation kits, including the 30L boiler, still head, all ingredients, and instructions for producing spirits. The tax office don't want to know about small scale production, as the administration expenditure outstrips the excise recovered. One shop owner (near a large police station) told me that police make up a significant portion of their regular customers.

However, the law doesn't mention anything about a continuously fed boiler. Theoretically, the wash/wines could be piped down the column, acting as a dephlegmator as it is heated on its way to the boiler. Though that may complicate the control of reflux within the column.

ShineOn, thanks for the suggestion, I'm all for suggestions, as I have zero experience with any of this :) That corrugated SS tube is pretty cool stuff. I hunted down a local manufacturer of it yesterday. So much better than trying to bend copper pipe! And the corrugations provide a much greater surface area/length for condensate to gather. Soldering/brazing fittings to the hose is apparently pretty difficult though.

Another question - do people use stainless steel stove flue pipes to build columns?
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by cranky »

Personally I'm a big believer in different dedicated columns for different jobs. Stripping runs are fast with my pot head, flavored single runs with my flute which are often turned into neutral after I have blended and have what I want for flavored, the rest goes back in as low wines and for neutral I feel you can't beat a big packed column on a low wines run. Most setups can also be used as a pot still but there is something to be said for a pot still. I love watching my flute but I also have a 3.5" borosilicate column and that is every bit as cool to sit and watch and makes neutral very fast but I wouldn't try to use it to make neutral in a single run. Load it with 13 gallons of low wines and it is awesome. I personally don't feel there is any benefit to trying to make neutral from a flute when a packed column the same size does it just as well f not better. Of course some of the dedicated flute guys will and have argued with me on that but that is my opinion.


Posting same time as Refluxed
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by cranky »

Refluxed wrote:In practice, the homebrew stores sell complete distillation kits, including the 30L boiler, still head, all ingredients, and instructions for producing spirits. The tax office don't want to know about small scale production, as the administration expenditure outstrips the excise recovered. One shop owner (near a large police station) told me that police make up a significant portion of their regular customers.
I frequently used to use my little 1.5" boka on a 4 gallon boiler with good results but more booze in the same amount of time means bigger column and bigger boiler.
Refluxed wrote:Another question - do people use stainless steel stove flue pipes to build columns?
Stove pipes are usually low quality SS and generally not used. You can usually find what I think are called "sanitary spools" online in just about any length you might want or you can stack them to make any length you might want.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Refluxed »

The flue pipes I've seen are typically 904 and 316, though 304 is sometimes used.

Or did you mean that they are poor quality 904/316? I know even less about metallurgy than distillation

Thanks for the tip on the sanitary spools
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by skow69 »

I've never seen any mention of using stainless exhaust pipe for a column. It is available in 304 and 316. Seems like that would be an economical option. It would preclude the use of tri-clamps, of course. Unless you wanted to make stainless easy flanges. Aargh! :lol:
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by bitter »

CCVM will definitly work nice.. even a 3" boka would do what you want. I can pull a bit over 5/l per hour at 95% with my 3" boka but I like the tastes better at the 3.4-4l/h rate .. cleaner at least for clearing up feints.

Also can make a darn fine whiskey in a Boka. The advantage is you can take the forshot and early heads in full reflux to take out the nasties before opening the needle valve up and running in pot mode.

B
Last edited by bitter on Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by cranky »

Refluxed wrote:The flue pipes I've seen are typically 904 and 316, though 304 is sometimes used.

Or did you mean that they are poor quality 904/316? I know even less about metallurgy than distillation

Thanks for the tip on the sanitary spools
All I know about them is what I've read on posts over the years, I've looked at them in the store and the ones I've seen all had a laped seam making me wonder about liquid tightness, then I read what was said about them and never really bothered thinking much further about it. I'm a chap bastard and have very little budget so I always try to find a ways to do things cheaply but I don't like to have to do them twice either just because I was trying to be cheap.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Refluxed »

What was said about them? I like to understand why.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by spiff »

I tried packing over plates and I think I'm sold(thanks Cranky), though there are some pros and cons to it. Cons are the extra headache dealing with 2000 marbles and the less copper in the path now since I'm nixing 5 of my plates. I kept one plate on the bottom as the base with a folded copper wire "X" over the downcomer hole to keep the marbles out and it worked great. But even with two rolls of copper mesh still in use, that one plate came out black this time, instead of just slightly darker like when I run with 6. I'm not sure if that means I'm on the light side of the copper needed.

The pros are being able to run much more stable without all the plates. I was always pulling 95-96%, so that hasn't changed, but now I can get that while pushing much more power and reflux, which would have flooded the plates if I had them. And I found I could run much more faster if I wanted and still keep that high APV, though I opted to keep the same slow take off with hopes I'm getting a smoother product.

I'm hoping to address the copper issue by using all copper packing through the whole column on my stripping runs so hopefully there will be less things to remove on my spirit runs for the less copper to deal with. Or else I can use more packing vs marbles I guess.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by skow69 »

spiff wrote:I tried packing over plates
I think you just tried packing.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Bushman »

This is basically the conclusion Mash Rookie and I came to when we ran his plated column side by side with my packed column. Plates have an advantage when your column is 6" diameter or greater as the weight on packing especially mesh has a tendency to compress.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by emptyglass »

@refluxed.

A plated column will give great results for making neutral. If you go with 5 plates , you may have to double distill it. If you want neutral out of the spout, 6 plates and a packed section will do the job nice

-What kind of ABV does the 4"x24" 5-plate setup output?

If you are after good clean tasting neutral, be mindful that some azeotrope spirit still tastes like shit. If its fermented from shit, it will taste shit. While your bum points to the ground anit nothing going to change that.
Some neutral @ 90%abv will be much better when its fermented right and distilled right.

Some of these guys loose sight of answering the question and almost start a discussion of their own with "i'm gunna" and "I want to try...", and the worst one " I read somewhere...". Now they all mean well, and good on them for participating in the spirit of things, but he said, she said, wont help you.

If you want to make a plated column, it will make a very fine tasting neutral. There are other slower, more dedicated options, but they wont offer the same flexibility.

4 or 5 plates, double distilled, or 6 plates and a packed section and you get it from beer (just dont use marbles)
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Refluxed »

Hi emptyglass

Yeah, I want as clean and flavourless as I can get. I have a couple of questions for you:

When you say there are slower, more dedicated options, what kind of things are you talking about?

I had no luck finding "sanitary spools" in Australia, but then I looked up the clamp fitting specification, ISO 2853. That gave me a list of other names for the tri-clamps, which I haven't got around to looking at properly yet:

Tri-clamp fitting
Tri-clover fitting
S-clamp fitting
Sanitary fitting
3A pipe fitting

I notice you are an Australian fabricator (I'm in NSW) - when you build stainless steel columns, do you buy the spools pre-made, or do you weld on flanges/ferrules as you need them? I've got no idea how one goes about polishing up the inside of narrow pipe after welding the fittings?

What I would really like for the column is a fused quartz tube, so I can see what's going on inside, and experiment with packing/plate designs. But I realise I won't get much help with that kind of setup here, due to safety concerns around glass. So to start with, I'm just thinking a long SS spool reflux column, with a short SS spool boko head. I can add more sophisticated heads (and plates) for it as I go along.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Danespirit »

Refluxed wrote:The flue pipes I've seen are typically 904 and 316, though 304 is sometimes used.

Or did you mean that they are poor quality 904/316? I know even less about metallurgy than distillation

Thanks for the tip on the sanitary spools
For a plated column I'd definitely recommend SS304 or even better SS316 (a little more expensive though).
If you don't have the option for TIG welding, sanitary spool tubes are what you want for a packed column.
When you've got your hands on a TIG welder (including the man that holds the torch), you can dimension your column as you wish and weld a ferrule on each end.
I'd say 500-600 mm packed column over a couple of plates (3-4pc), will give you the finest neutral you can dream of.
Alternatively, make a 3" CCVM at around 1200 mm height..that should do the job on a budget. It's easy to build in a modular way too.
Whatever you decide...go modular, you won't regret :eugeek: .

Edited to add: Packed column: Easy to fabricate, cheap, delivers neutral just fine, 3" and up has an excellent take off rate.
Plated column: A little harder to fabricate, has to have a lot of plates to get into neutral heaven, is a versatile tool that can be used for everything else. And...a COOL factor 8)
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Refluxed »

While considerably more expensive again, wouldn't 904L be better?

Compared to 316L, it has around half the carbon and sulfur, more chromium and silicon, about twice as much nickel and molybdenum, and a couple of percent copper.

It is less prone to pitting and crevice corrosion than 316L, and is used in harsh chemical process environments. Stove flues operate in a pretty harsh environment, all the hot gasses and particulates from whatever is burning. It is a pretty uncommon alloy, due to cost. Flues are very cheap though. Rolex use it for their watches.

Oh, whichever type, always get the L version (low carbon). Chromium carbide forms during welding, depleting the chromium content of the alloy lattice, leaving the welded area prone to corrosion. Less carbon means less carbide can form. 904 only comes in L.

I personally have no motivation to make anything other than pure neutral spirit. I've never actually enjoyed any of the characteristic flavours of alcoholic drinks, I prefer the base flavour of the mixer (typically a good quality juice) not to be adulterated.

But I don't actually drink much. 70% EtOH is an extremely versatile solvent, with all kinds of hygiene, maintenance, and scientific uses. I can't buy rectified spirit (95% ABV) anymore, and lab supply places charge through the nose. Not exactly the price that would let me clean my windows, and I can't stand the smell of denatured - or the taste if I'm unfortunate to get some on my fingers. About the only thing I haven't yet used it for is fuel. But with excise here at $75 a litre, that is just like burning money.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Odin »

Bushman wrote:This is basically the conclusion Mash Rookie and I came to when we ran his plated column side by side with my packed column. Plates have an advantage when your column is 6" diameter or greater as the weight on packing especially mesh has a tendency to compress.
I designed a special helicon column packing to overcome that, Bushman. We can now take columns up to 10 inches and have them outperform anything. My 5 inch packed column (with a 10x10 mm variety of helicon column packing) is 115 centimeters high (packed part), can handle 18 kW and produces around 20 liters of >190 proof per hour. I also have a 3 inch diameter column that currently does 4 liters per hour. With a new 7.5 kW heater and new PLC I expect that to go to around 7 liters per hour soon.

When comparing diameters, output per hour and ABV nothing beats a modern packed column. Makes sense too, if you do the math. It can hold a bigger liquid bath (for more purity) and has a more open column, so less gas restriction and effectively (net/gross) a much bigger gas throughput per inch diameter than any other type of still, save a potstill. But with a potstill you can't redistill and make neutral in one go.

Regards, Odin.
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Re: Neutral spirit - plates vs. packing pros question

Post by Refluxed »

can handle 18 kW and produces around 20 liters of >190 proof per hour
Ye Gods!

I think one hour's output from your still would do me for a couple of years.

I can't find the helical/helicon packing you mentioned. Is it something like this: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac60016a012?
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