Copper combination CM Build (with cold fingers)

[Coyotey]

Here's the first rough sketch of my column. The ratios are way off and the drawing is definately not to scale. Also: There will be one more pass with the cold fingers and there will not be a connection between the cold fingers and the out-take condenser. They will have independent intakes and controls. I know that you can't run a column off pot temperatures buy I love gadgets and the thermometer on the pot will give me one more thing to look at The "bowl" reducer is 4" to 2".
The plan is to be able to take off the packed section and the cold fingers in order to turn it into a pot still. All piping will be copper and all connections on the column will be stainless steel.

Compared to the amazing designs I have seen, this is quite basic but it's my first go at this hobby and I don't want to over extend my ability to fabricate. I also understand that tuning a column with cold fingers can be fidgety.

Any thoughts? I would love your input guys! Am I missing anything?

[Yummyrum]

Coyotey , Make sure you have a vent to atmosphere where the Product condenser meets the Parrot to prevent ALC meter bounce in the Parrot.

I like most , prefer to run my Reflux still in full reflux to allow stacking before fores and heads removal . I really dont think those tubes will cause enough reflux to allow full reflux unless you can really crank the power down .
As an example , I made a 2" long 5 tube shot gun CM section for my 2" column and it had no show on my 1380Watt element ......so I can't see a couple of cross tubes working that well . When you concider the size of Reflux coils required to knock down 2000 watts typically in a Boka , this will give you an idea .
I would swap out that cold finger section with maybe a 4-6" shot gun Reflux condenser section

That said you may be able to pull around 75-85 % ABV at a reasonable rate on a 1500 -2000 watt element but you won't get 95%

[Coyotey]

Coyotey , Make sure you have a vent to atmosphere where the Product condenser meets the Parrot to prevent ALC meter bounce in the Parrot.

I like most , prefer to run my Reflux still in full reflux to allow stacking before fores and heads removal . I really dont think those tubes will cause enough reflux to allow full reflux unless you can really crank the power down .
As an example , I made a 2" long 5 tube shot gun CM section for my 2" column and it had no show on my 1380Watt element ......so I can't see a couple of cross tubes working that well . When you concider the size of Reflux coils required to knock down 2000 watts typically in a Boka , this will give you an idea .
I would swap out that cold finger section with maybe a 4-6" shot gun Reflux condenser section

That said you may be able to pull around 75-85 % ABV at a reasonable rate on a 1500 -2000 watt element but you won't get 95%

I really appreciate your feedback, thank you! This is exactly what I was hoping for

About the vent to atmosphere for the parrot:
I have drawn in 2 alternatives: A and B. Would A be the best alternative since it is higher than the top of the parrot? My limited knowledge of physics tells me that my product would flow out through the vent (on alternative B) and not climb up the parrot. - or am I wrong?

About the column condenser:
I am trying to be tactical about the budget that Mrs. Coyotey is allowing me for this build I need to make the best drink possible with what I have to help her see the light!

To make a long story short...I can't afford to buy a really good deflegmator YET, they are bloody expensive and I'm not good enough with soldering YET to make one...but when the time comes, I'll be able to easily clamp one in instead of the "cold fingers" section. What about adding several more "turns" with the cold fingers? say a total of 6-8 passes?

I'm using a 220v 2000W hotplate and researching how to make a "dimmer" type controller for it now.

[yakattack]

You are going to have the same soldering issues with trying to solder in those cold fingers as you would with a delflag. I'm going to suggest that if you are limited on solder ability, budget and material, and vodka and or neutral is part of your direction than at this stage a boka will not only be easier and cheaper to build but will also serve you're needs much better.

Boka can use csst as a condenser. No soldering required there. You will have to solder on 2 plates to create your take off as well as a needle valve and takeoff line but all are very simple to do.

Just my opinion mind you but having run both this is the way I would suggest you start.

Edit to say. if you want to keep the t section up top you can always use that top port to hang in the csst as a reflux condensor. This will act as valve also by stopping vapor from getting to.your pc.

So you can ditch the cold.fingers. coil up.some.csst and slip it in. Raise it up just past the pc inlet when ready to draw off.

Also remove the valve off of the pc. That's a recipe for disaster the way you have it drawn.

For a better explaination on.it look up dad300s setup. Prime example of how cheap and easy it can be

[Coyotey]

You are going to have the same soldering issues with trying to solder in those cold fingers as you would with a delflag. I'm going to suggest that if you are limited on solder ability, budget and material, and vodka and or neutral is part of your direction than at this stage a boka will not only be easier and cheaper to build but will also serve you're needs much better.

Boka can use csst as a condenser. No soldering required there. You will have to solder on 2 plates to create your take off as well as a needle valve and takeoff line but all are very simple to do.

Just my opinion mind you but having run both this is the way I would suggest you start.

Edit to say. if you want to keep the t section up top you can always use that top port to hang in the csst as a reflux condensor. This will act as valve also by stopping vapor from getting to.your pc.

So you can ditch the cold.fingers. coil up.some.csst and slip it in. Raise it up just past the pc inlet when ready to draw off.

Also remove the valve off of the pc. That's a recipe for disaster the way you have it drawn.

For a better explaination on.it look up dad300s setup. Prime example of how cheap and easy it can be

Thanks for taking the time and your advice!
I will definately continue researching the design you mentioned - but something tells me that I'll be making several setups over the years

I'm not sure I understand what you write about:

"Also remove the valve off of the pc. That's a recipe for disaster the way you have it drawn".

I don't have any valve on the design except the tap on the bottom of the parrot for tapping foreshots. Do you mean the top of the column? Thats an end-cap held in by a tri-clamp. Or...do you mean the 2 round objects? Those are thermometers.

[yakattack]

Ah ok. In the sketch without a label they look like valves.

[Coyotey]

Ah ok. In the sketch without a label they look like valves.

Better safe than sorry!! Scared the crap ot of me there

Thanks again for your input!

About the vent to atmosphere for the parrot (to pevent bobbing of the alc meter)....would you chose alt. A or B on the last drawing?

[yakattack]

While I've never run a parrot, my limited understanding of physics would suggest A. But I could be wrong.

[still_stirrin]

Alternative B would be messy...your liquor would flow out of there instead of the parrot’s beak. I guess you could extend the tubing up above the liquid level of the overflow cup on the parrot. But this option would be quite ineffective at damping the pulses.
ss

[still_stirrin]

And I want to add...those cross-tube condensers (like found on old-school CM’s) are not very efficient. You’ll be lucky to get higher than 75-80%ABV off of the still. There just won’t be a high enough reflux ratio to push the proof higher regardless of how fast you flush your coolant through it. This is exactly what has spurred development of newer, better designs. The cross-tube CM’s are becoming heritage....and retired.
ss

[Coyotey]

Alternative B would be messy...your liquor would flow out of there instead of the parrot’s beak. I guess you could extend the tubing up above the liquid level of the overflow cup on the parrot. But this option would be quite ineffective at damping the pulses.
ss

Alt. A it is then?

So as long as the vent is above the top of the parrot then all is well? Do you think this would prevent bobbing?

[Coyotey]

And I want to add...those cross-tube condensers (like found on old-school CM’s) are not very efficient. You’ll be lucky to get higher than 75-80%ABV off of the still. There just won’t be a high enough reflux ratio to push the proof higher regardless of how fast you flush your coolant through it. This is exactly what has spurred development of newer, better designs. The cross-tube CM’s are becoming heritage....and retired.
ss

A few of you have now offered the same advice. I am after all here to gain knowledge from those who have far more experience than me. I, ofcourse concede and will try my hand at building a shotgun condenser. My column is 2"....if the packed part of the column will be around 40" tall - what would seem like an appropriate height for the shotgun condenser? AND...how many pipes should I have inside...AND...which diameter?

Many questions here from a rookie and I appreciate all the great help I'm getting!!

[Yummyrum]

About the vent to atmosphere for the parrot:
I have drawn in 2 alternatives: A and B. Would A be the best alternative since it is higher than the top of the parrot? My limited knowledge of physics tells me that my product would flow out through the vent (on alternative B) and not climb up the parrot. - or am I wrong?
Yup "A" ...."B" would spurt alcohol every where


I'm using a 220v 2000W hotplate and researching how to make a "dimmer" type controller for it now.
2000 Watts is as much as you can pretty much get away with on a 2" packed column....a controller does help but is not essential ....better to put yor bucks into a better reflux condenser....and like others have said the matterial you intend to use in the cross tubes would be better off in a shotty

[Coyotey]

Thank again guys...Purshiate it!

[still_stirrin]

...My column is 2"....if the packed part of the column will be around 40" tall - what would seem like an appropriate height for the shotgun condenser? AND...how many pipes should I have inside...AND...which diameter?

So, the “technical name” for a multi-tube tube-in-shell reflux condenser is dephlagemater...kinda’ strange, huh? But around here, they’re called “deflag’s” for short. It is a shotgun really, just purposely built for reflux operations.

Deflags are common reflux condensers used on flutes (plate stills) where the column diameter is greater. But it could be built for a 2” column although it is a little tricky to build because of the required machine work and soldering. But...it most certainly is do-able.

For a 2” column, you could use four 3/4” ID pipes in the water jacket. Or, you could possibly fit five 1/2” ID pipes in there. I wouldn’t recommend using smaller (soft) tubing as it can create faster vapor velocities. Part of the design constraints is the dwell time the vapor will spend in the condenser’s vapor tubes where the heat is transferred back to the coolant by conduction through the tube walls. Vapor tube surface area is a key feature of that mechanism, so pipe count and diameter effects the transfer function.

Smaller diameter tubes, for a given condenser length, will give you more surface area but will cause the vapor to speed up as it flows through the tube bank. So, the larger pipes work better for this purpose. But, like I said, length also has some effect on the heat transfer.

For your 2” column, a 5” to 6” long deflag would be very effective. And it wouldn’t need to be any longer because too long would be too effective at knockdown and your resultant reflux ratio would always be relatively high, slowing the vapor throughput to the product condenser. I’d say, if using four x 3/4” ID pipes, then make the deflag 5” long. If using five x 1/2” ID pipes, then make it 4” long.

Summarizing, look through some of the build threads to learn how to build a deflag. Have fun and be safe.
ss

[Coyotey]

I can't thank you enough SS! What a comprehensive explanation for all of my inquiries. I got answers for all of my doubts in one fell swoop - totally blown away here!!

I look forward to posting my progress as it moves along and the never-ending research continues

C

[BugHunter]

Are you really dead set on a CM? You could easily change that design to a CCVM (Coolant Controlled Vapor Management) design, which has a reputation for being easier to operate. Just take out your coldfinger section, and instead put a section of straight pipe above the tee, with a coiled CSST (Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing) reflux condensor in it. You avoid any soldering for your RC and you get a better still. Plus, by taking out the RC and putting a cap on top, you also have a pot still.

Easier to make, easier to run, more versatile. What's not to like?

[Coyotey]

Are you really dead set on a CM? You could easily change that design to a CCVM (Coolant Controlled Vapor Management) design, which has a reputation for being easier to operate. Just take out your coldfinger section, and instead put a section of straight pipe above the tee, with a coiled CSST (Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing) reflux condensor in it. You avoid any soldering for your RC and you get a better still. Plus, by taking out the RC and putting a cap on top, you also have a pot still.

Easier to make, easier to run, more versatile. What's not to like?

Hi BugHunter!

I've just begun looking at designs and my research has led me this far...which is to say I understand CM. I appreciate your input and as you say I can easily change my design since it is a modular set-up. I've since been convinced that "coldfingers" are definately not the way to go - so a deflag it is for now.

I gotta tell ya...looking at these different designs sure puts a smile on my face because this truly is an unexhaustable hobby that's going to keep me looking for better designs and tweeking new designs for years to come! What a blast - why did I wait so long!?!?

Are you running a CCVM set-up?

[BugHunter]

I'm building a modular setup, first a pot still, and then a CCVM reflux with the addition of a 40" packed column and a CSST reflux condensor.

I just finished the last solder joint on my leibeg product condensor today, and I just need to file/sand down a little solder, then give it a couple of passes at the arbor to polish it up and then a couple coats of lacqeur, and I'll do a "My first copper porn" posting.

I've got the boiler sitting next to me, a 5 gallon stock pot with a stainless disc (that just arrived today) on top. I cut the hole for the column base, a 4" long 2" diameter pipe with tri-clamp ends. I've sanded around the hole and gotten my clamping setup worked out, but ran out of time before getting it soldered on. That'll get done first thing in the morning.

On top of the 4" pipe will be a 15" long 2" dia copper pipe that I built EZ flanges on the ends of. On that goes a 90 degree elbow, which the goes to one side of a tee. The other side is capped, and the bottom of the tee connects to the leibeg. I could have used another elbow in place of the tee, but I'll need the tee for the CCVM setup, plus the tee has a thermometer port.

I've just got the one joint to do on the boiler, and I should get my vinegar and water cleaning runs done tomorrow.

[Coyotey]

I'm building a modular setup, first a pot still, and then a CCVM reflux with the addition of a 40" packed column and a CSST reflux condensor.

I just finished the last solder joint on my leibeg product condensor today, and I just need to file/sand down a little solder, then give it a couple of passes at the arbor to polish it up and then a couple coats of lacqeur, and I'll do a "My first copper porn" posting.

I've got the boiler sitting next to me, a 5 gallon stock pot with a stainless disc (that just arrived today) on top. I cut the hole for the column base, a 4" long 2" diameter pipe with tri-clamp ends. I've sanded around the hole and gotten my clamping setup worked out, but ran out of time before getting it soldered on. That'll get done first thing in the morning.

On top of the 4" pipe will be a 15" long 2" dia copper pipe that I built EZ flanges on the ends of. On that goes a 90 degree elbow, which the goes to one side of a tee. The other side is capped, and the bottom of the tee connects to the leibeg. I could have used another elbow in place of the tee, but I'll need the tee for the CCVM setup, plus the tee has a thermometer port.

I've just got the one joint to do on the boiler, and I should get my vinegar and water cleaning runs done tomorrow.

Now this is some porn I look forward to drooling over. Post pics asap! And looking forward to hearing about how the maiden voyage goes!! You must admit that when this hobby's bug bites you, it bites bloody hard!

I am soon getting under way with my build as well - just waiting for some parts to arrive from both the USA and China. I have one concern (I don't want to say worry)...just concern...that I am researching a lot about now, and that is soldering copper fittings (such as ferrules and tees) in 2" dimentions. I have a bunch of 2" copper pipe pieces and I have bought some bends and other connections to practice on. I'm going to try propane to begin with but mapp might be the way to go. I'm researching soldering large bore copper on youtube and so far what I see is that it is fully possible and is down to the technique.

I've also orderred 2 2" end-caps so that in the end I can do a pressure test. Keep yer fingers crossed for me! (it sounds like your souldering went just fine)? Funny you should bring up laquer...I've been looking into that as well. What kind do you use?

[ben stiller]

To educate yourself some more on types of stills, take a look at the concentric builds. I run a small modular concentric and with
full packed column makes a really clean neutral and is easy to run. It also works great as a pot still and is very fast on a stripping
run. Looks like you are heading in a good direction with your build, but wanted to give you another option.

[BugHunter]

The only soldering I've done on 2" is building up my EZ flanges. All of my 2" pipe to pipe connections will be tri-clamp for modularity.

I made the EZ flanges by flaring the end with a ball peen hammer then flattening a piece of copper wire, it was either 6 or 8 gauge, I'm not sure. It was a piece of extra stock my neighbor the electrician had lying in the back of his truck and gave to me. I hammered it flat, trying to get a slight angle on it, then worked it into a circle that fit around the pipe. Then I soldered it to the back of the flange.

I took a PTFE tri-clamp gasket and used a razor knife to cut the bump off of one side so it woul mate against the flat flange. Then I spent some time with a file working the flange into shape to mate with a piece of tri-clamp pipe.

Be sure and anneal the end of the pipe before starting, and I had to stop and anneal it a couple of times during the process. If you pay attention, you'll notice that it's not moving as easily when you hit it, that's the signal to re-anneal. Ditto for anealing the wire.

Anyways, you were asking about propane vs. mapp. I have both propane and mapp, but I ended up using propane because my torch head had been attached to a propane bottle for years and when I tried removing it, the valve in the bottle was hissing, so I had to put the head back on the bottle to avoid filling my workshop with propane. So I'm stuck using propane until this bottle is empty. :-/

But the propane worked fine on the 2" pipe. I'm sure the mapp would be a little quicker, but sometimes it's nice to have things heat up a little more gradually, you get better control. My first flange had some cosmetic gaps where I hadn't used quite enough solder, and after I had done all the filing to make it clamp properly, I decided that I wanted to fill in those gaps. But I certainly didn't want the ring to move around and get out of alignment. I was able to heat up small sections of the joint and add solder without having the whole ring come loose and move around.

All of the joints on my liebig condensor were either 1/2" or 3/4" and were done with propane with no problem.

So to make a long story short, yes, propane will work on 2" pipe, but mapp will be a little quicker.

As for "lacquer", I've got a rattle can of glossy clear coat that I'm planning on using. Nothing fancy, I just want to have a layer to prevent oxidation. If anyone has advice on a better option, I'm all ears.

[Coyotey]

The only soldering I've done on 2" is building up my EZ flanges. All of my 2" pipe to pipe connections will be tri-clamp for modularity.

I made the EZ flanges by flaring the end with a ball peen hammer then flattening a piece of copper wire, it was either 6 or 8 gauge, I'm not sure. It was a piece of extra stock my neighbor the electrician had lying in the back of his truck and gave to me. I hammered it flat, trying to get a slight angle on it, then worked it into a circle that fit around the pipe. Then I soldered it to the back of the flange.

I took a PTFE tri-clamp gasket and used a razor knife to cut the bump off of one side so it woul mate against the flat flange. Then I spent some time with a file working the flange into shape to mate with a piece of tri-clamp pipe.

Be sure and anneal the end of the pipe before starting, and I had to stop and anneal it a couple of times during the process. If you pay attention, you'll notice that it's not moving as easily when you hit it, that's the signal to re-anneal. Ditto for anealing the wire

That sounds like a really creative way of solving this connection type. I don't think I would trust myself to try just yet though. I orderred a bunch of 2" and 4" copper and stainless steel ferrules from China. Sure can't beat the price that's for sure. I think I wound up paying 5 USD per piece.

So these are the pieces that worry me the most soldering onto a 2" copper pipe (because both are really thick). The copper tees and bends are much thinner material so it will heat up easier and more uniformally.

I'm sure the mapp would be a little quicker, but sometimes it's nice to have things heat up a little more gradually, you get better control.

I never thought of it that way...makes perfect sense!

As for "lacquer", I've got a rattle can of glossy clear coat that I'm planning on using.

My only concern with that type of laquer is the heat rating. Don't gas yourself while running your still!!! Not quite the buzz we're looking for Perhaps worth looking into further.

[Coyotey]

To educate yourself some more on types of stills, take a look at the concentric builds. I run a small modular concentric and with
full packed column makes a really clean neutral and is easy to run. It also works great as a pot still and is very fast on a stripping
run. Looks like you are heading in a good direction with your build, but wanted to give you another option.

Thanks for the heads-up Ben! The research continues..

[BugHunter]

That sounds like a really creative way of solving this connection type. I don't think I would trust myself to try just yet though. I orderred a bunch of 2" and 4" copper and stainless steel ferrules from China. Sure can't beat the price that's for sure. I think I wound up paying 5 USD per piece.

3-inch-Diameter-Copper-Flange-1.jpg

So these are the pieces that worry me the most soldering onto a 2" copper pipe (because both are really thick). The copper tees and bends are much thinner material so it will heat up easier and more uniformally.

As for "lacquer", I've got a rattle can of glossy clear coat that I'm planning on using.

My only concern with that type of laquer is the heat rating. Don't gas yourself while running your still!!! Not quite the buzz we're looking for Perhaps worth looking into further.

I hadn't seen the flanges from China, I had just seen them from places like Still Dragon, where a 2" copper ferrule costs $18, which would make a homemade copper spool cost more than a prebuilt stainless one. At $5 each, it's probably not worth the time to make my own flanges. Where did you find them? A quick check on E-bay doesn't find anything below $19. If I recall, the stainless ones (which are cheaper) aren't sized right to fit copper pipe sizes. But I may be wrong about that.

As far as the temperature for the clear coat, that's a valid concern. I suspect that the stuff I have will be good up to 118C, which should be as high as any still part in the vapor path gets (that's pure acetic acid's boiling point, vinegar's would be even lower). But I'll check to be sure when I get home. An alternative would be a high heat automotive paint, which is available in a clear gloss from a number of manufacturers.

My cleaning run ran into a problem. I had a leak where my pipe flange is soldered to the sheet metal plate that gets clamped to my stock pot. I tried to fix it, but got a lot of frustration. The sheet metal warps when heated, then unwarps as it cools, making it very hard to get a good solder joint. I finally ended up using a threaded rod through the pipe, the sheet, and then a tri-clamp tee under the sheet, so the sheet is very firmly clamped between the flanges on the pipe and the tee. That let me get enough force to keep the sheet to stay flat.

But then I had gas bubbling out through the solder when I had it hot, and then the solder would get sucked into a gap between the flange and the sheet. I think the air in the gasket groove was heating up and bubbling out through the solder, then cooling and sucking the solder back in. I'm hoping this means that the inner ring of the flange was making a gas-tight connection with the sheet (which was why I was seeing the gas coming out the ourside of the flange. I need to set the still up for another cleaning run to test it, so that will probably wait until next weekend.

[JeremiahJohnson]

Good going so far bug hunter! I'm not a pro at soldering stainless, but considering the bubbling that you are experiencing I would go a different route. That type of joint won't be very strong even with a perfect solder job. Your whole column will stress that joint and you don't want it to come apart with packing full of liquid, condenser full of liquid, it will be hotter than hell and your reflex will be to grab it and it will burn. You want to be able to pick up the empty boiler with your column and have full confidence in that joint.

[Yummyrum]

My cleaning run ran into a problem. I had a leak where my pipe flange is soldered to the sheet metal plate that gets clamped to my stock pot. I tried to fix it, but got a lot of frustration. The sheet metal warps when heated, then unwarps as it cools, making it very hard to get a good solder joint. I finally ended up using a threaded rod through the pipe, the sheet, and then a tri-clamp tee under the sheet, so the sheet is very firmly clamped between the flanges on the pipe and the tee. That let me get enough force to keep the sheet to stay flat.

But then I had gas bubbling out through the solder when I had it hot, and then the solder would get sucked into a gap between the flange and the sheet. I think the air in the gasket groove was heating up and bubbling out through the solder, then cooling and sucking the solder back in. I'm hoping this means that the inner ring of the flange was making a gas-tight connection with the sheet (which was why I was seeing the gas coming out the ourside of the flange. I need to set the still up for another cleaning run to test it, so that will probably wait until next weekend.

I'm confused . Are you soldering a flange upside down to the plate ? .
Got a picture of what you are doing ?

[BugHunter]

Picture a 4" long, 2" diameter triclamp spool (pipe with langes on both ends), standing on a plate, which has a 2" hole in it centered under the spool. I'm soldering the spool to the plate.

[Yummyrum]

Got you
You could try drilling a small hole though the ferrule into the gasket groove so the air can escape through it rather than sucking / blowing across the joint .
If the inner part of the ferrule is sealed then it won't leak.

[Coyotey]

How're you coming along Bug Hunter? Still alive?