Help running my new system w/ pics

[haeffnkr]

Hello everyone.

I finished up my copy of dad300 still http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=41579 last night.
I ran 5 gallons of old wine through it and got some crazy high proof with it, which I guess it not a bad thing.

I started at 170 proof and when I ended I was at 130 proof.

About my still - Keg, custom 3 ferrule on it then a 3" x 36" column then a tee. Ran with the reflux condenser above the tee take off/output side.
I have about 10" of copper scrubbies in the bottom third of the column.

So I guess my questions are -
When do you put the reflux condensor in the tee/take off path and how far? and how long do you leave it there?
What should the stream output rate be at?
I tried to keep the reflux condenser around 120 130.
We found the higher the temp of the reflux condenser the more the product comes out but I guess at a slightly lower proof.

Output - I had fairly fast out put and it started at 170 in the heads and I ended at 130 proof measured with a new hydro.
Is this expected out put and proof?

Any advice on making cuts and blending would be appreciated

thanks in advance haeffnkr

[bluefish_dist]

I assume you have a ccvm as I can't see the coil from the photos. Running a vm, you want to hold full flux at the start for 30-60 min. So coil all the way down, no output. The temp at the still head should be the boiling point of alcohol or lower depending on the fractions. This will change depending on weather.
Then lift the coil to get some output. If you are going for a neutral, let the temp raise a few .1, probably no more than .5 deg. At that point you should be able to pull 188-190. As the temp climbs, push the coil back down to hold the high abv. At some point the temp will either climb a lot or output will stop. That should be tails.

If you are doing flavored products, then you will want a lower reflux, which is a higher temperature. You will have to experiment with what you like. also if doing whiskey, reduce the packing to maybe 6-8". Then run a lower abv, like 130-140. You will find that less packing will allow the lower abv much easier.

[kimbodious]

gday

I envy your 3" modular system! Your run sounds great for a first go!

I have a 2" CCVM system with a 2200W electric boiler and the 1200mm column is packed with 22 small SS scrubbers.

I keep the column in total reflux for one hour. Then I raise the coil just enough to achieve 1-2 drips per second. I keep it at this rate until I have collected 150 mls of foreshots (takes about half an hour). Then I raise the coil until I just start to get a steady stream from the output (one litre per hour). I leave it at that setting until the stream starts to falter (onset of tails) and then I shut it down. I am achieving 95% ABV for as long as the output stream is not faltering

I can't help with temperature readings because I don't use a thermometer in the vapour path. However I have a sightglass to monitor for flooding in the column. I use a power controller (1600W) to moderate the rate of vapour flow so that I do not flood the column to the point that condensate is exiting via the offtake (shows up as smeared output with reduced ABV).

I was interested to note the gradual drop in ABV in the latter part of your run perhaps you are getting some flooding with condensate exiting via the offtake? If you notice a similar drop in ABV next run try backing off the rate of vapour flow a tiny bit to see if you get a rise in ABV.

Running a CCVM very quickly becomes boring - a still of this great design is rock-solid and so reliable!

[frunobulax]

Nice first rig, but it sounds like ya might be missing the fundamentals. What were you trying to make, a neutral or a brandy. is it packed or not?
You don't necessarily have to regulate the cooling water, and definitely don't control your output with it.

[haeffnkr]

I assume you have a ccvm as I can't see the coil from the photos. Running a vm, you want to hold full flux at the start for 30-60 min. So coil all the way down, no output. The temp at the still head should be the boiling point of alcohol or lower depending on the fractions. This will change depending on weather.
Then lift the coil to get some output. If you are going for a neutral, let the temp raise a few .1, probably no more than .5 deg. At that point you should be able to pull 188-190. As the temp climbs, push the coil back down to hold the high abv. At some point the temp will either climb a lot or output will stop. That should be tails.

If you are doing flavored products, then you will want a lower reflux, which is a higher temperature. You will have to experiment with what you like. also if doing whiskey, reduce the packing to maybe 6-8". Then run a lower abv, like 130-140. You will find that less packing will allow the lower abv much easier.

Yes I believe this design is referred to a CCVM as dad300 states.
I think I understand what you are saying and the "still head" in my setup would be the center of the tee, where the output/take off goes out of the column.

thanks for your help.
haeffnkr

[haeffnkr]

gday

I envy your 3" modular system! Your run sounds great for a first go!

I have a 2" CCVM system with a 2200W electric boiler and the 1200mm column is packed with 22 small SS scrubbers.

I keep the column in total reflux for one hour. Then I raise the coil just enough to achieve 1-2 drips per second. I keep it at this rate until I have collected 150 mls of foreshots (takes about half an hour). Then I raise the coil until I just start to get a steady stream from the output (one litre per hour). I leave it at that setting until the stream starts to falter (onset of tails) and then I shut it down. I am achieving 95% ABV for as long as the output stream is not faltering

I can't help with temperature readings because I don't use a thermometer in the vapour path. However I have a sightglass to monitor for flooding in the column. I use a power controller (1600W) to moderate the rate of vapour flow so that I do not flood the column to the point that condensate is exiting via the offtake (shows up as smeared output with reduced ABV).

I was interested to note the gradual drop in ABV in the latter part of your run perhaps you are getting some flooding with condensate exiting via the offtake? If you notice a similar drop in ABV next run try backing off the rate of vapour flow a tiny bit to see if you get a rise in ABV.

Running a CCVM very quickly becomes boring - a still of this great design is rock-solid and so reliable!

Thanks... it was easy to setup and I just bought it all online and assembled... needed a lathe to cut make the custom 8 to 3 tri clap reducer.

I have a thermometer for reference in the boiler and I just kept feeling the column to get an idea of the temps, but on the first run I did not keep the reflux coil down below the tee take off.
I have a 5500 watt element and I had it set at full power most of the run. The boiler temp was at 211 at the end.
So I need to throttle the power back some or can this design handle it all running at full speed...hope that make sense.

So you are saying I should see 170 proof most of the run until tails and the output stops when there some level, mostly small, of the reflux coil in the take off path?

thanks haeffnkr

[haeffnkr]

Nice first rig, but it sounds like ya might be missing the fundamentals. What were you trying to make, a neutral or a brandy. is it packed or not?
You don't necessarily have to regulate the cooling water, and definitely don't control your output with it.

thanks

Yes I am trying to understand both. How to run this rig per the product I am after for that particular mash I am running....
If I want more flavor out of this rig then I think I just need to remove the reflux condensor and cap the top of the tee and remove some of the packing.

If I want a neutral, which I definitely do at times. then run it more as described above and leave the packing in?

thanks for everyone's help.
haeffnkr

[Expat]

Ditch the plastic funnel and get yourself a stainless one, or you could make one from copper.

Otherwise looks like a great setup!

[kimbodious]

...
So I need to throttle the power back some or can this design handle it all running at full speed...hope that make sense.

So you are saying I should see 170 proof most of the run until tails and the output stops when there some level, mostly small, of the reflux coil in the take off path?

thanks haeffnkr

Look at the pic of my pot still (links in my .signature) to see how I use components from my CCVM to construct it.

I only distill low wines in my CCVM. Even with a wash, I'd expect the CCVM run as a reflux still would be putting out 92-95% ABV (185-190 proof) right up to the onset of tails.

You will want to have control of the power to the element because it appears you can not run the CCVM reflux still at full power without flooding (your low ABV output). It is likely your product is smeared and will have a sweet banana-like odour but will be sharp and burning to taste. If you find your product is undrinkable you can always dilute it with water and run it through the still again. I had these issues with flooding when I was learning to run my CCVM.

My boiler has a 2200W element. I limit the power to 500W for total reflux and 1550W for general running (2" system)

[rgreen2002]

Yes, I believe this design is referred to a CCVM as dad300 states.
I think I understand what you are saying and the "still head" in my setup would be the center of the tee, where the output/take off goes out of the column.
haeffnkr

haeffnkr ---- where have you been? It's been like 3 years! I like the still, I see you went with DAD's design. Here are the issues I think you are up against...

If you're not sure the type of still that you are running (CCVM) you might want to hold off on doing a lot of runs with it; wasting time and money on the best outcome side and causing injury and damage on the worst outcome side.

If you are using 5500W of power for an entire run I can imagine that the run took about 30 minutes and all of your product is smeared together. If you don't understand why that might be you will need to get back to the reading.

If you still have plastic in the vapor/liquor path, I am concerned for your safety.... please go back and check the mandatory reading section.

If you don't know the fundamentals you are likely to cause yourself and this hobby harm... Nobody here wants to see that.

Good Luck and be safe!

Take a look back at DAD's post for a start and maybe the links in my signature: Condenser Controlled Columns

[nuntius01]

great looking rig. how bout posting it with the others.

[zapata]

You got a nice rig, but seem to really not understand what it can do. Giving you specific advice is difficult because it isnt clear you understand the basics and we don't have a clue what you want to make or what you understand. Certainly nobody can help you with cuts without knowing ingredients and goals. Here are a few comments, but a fair bit of research will probably be needed to understand everything.

The proof of your product is mostly affected by:
1. The amount of packing. (Your 10" is limiting you here. For a reflux still MOST people will pack the whole column MOST of the time)
2. Reflux rate. This is the volume of vapor at the top of the column which is condensed and sent back down vs the amount allowed to reach your condenser. You have no way of directly measuring this, but you can calculate it by how much product you are taking vs how much you SHOULD be making at any given power setting (minus heat lost to environment, which you can measure but might be too much detail right now). The higher the reflux rate, the higher the purity, but the slower you collect.
3. Proof of still charge

Regarding reflux rate, you have several factors that affect it.
1. Coil position. This is the designed way of managing reflux rate for the CCVM. Move the coil up, reflux goes down and product goes up. Move it down and reflux rate increases, product rate goes down. This is supposed to be the main way a CCVM is controlled, but you don't mention doing it at all.
2. Coolant. If you mess with coolant temp or flow it is possible to make the coil act like a cooling management still (CM) to some extent instead of a CCVM. Increasing flow or lowering coolant temperature could increase reflux rate and reduce product rate. Or vice versa. You noticed this by getting more product at a lower proof. From what I understand most CCVM operators seek to NOT do this on purpose, aiming to maintain a steady rate/temp of cooling.

All of this is just generic reflux still info. You really should know how all reflux stills work, how they are controlled, and how to accomplish that on your rig BEFORE turning on the heat.

[haeffnkr]

Hi all thanks for the comments.... all of them

A bit of history...
Rgreen... yes did a lot of reading and sourced all this stuff 3 years ago and just assembled it a few days ago and forgot half of what I read.
When I fired up this still a couple days ago, I was trying to distill some water as a test... it did not work too well.
I had 5 gallons of old wine laying around to distill some day...I dumped in and ran it off without a lot of pre thought, left the reflux column up and put it on full heat.
Product came out
I was more of a POC to see if this was going to work at all... is produced product... POC a success. I was amazed it worked.
After diluting one of the middle jars to 90 proof w/ good water it tasted harsh but very similar to come commercial grappa I tried side by side.

So now I need to make something more drinkable.
I want to focus on neutral/vodka
I have 13 gallons of 10% wheat mash that will be ready to run in 2-3 days.

So going forward -
I will remove the plastic funnel from my process.
I will pack the column almost full with combo of stainless and copper pot scubbies after I go to the dollar store.
I figure out what heat level to apply to the boiler and adjust it as the run goes, same with reflux coil placement.
I have a brewing controller that I will use to set the element output level at any level from 0-100 percent, again I am using a 5500 w element in a 15.5 gallon boiler.
I will keep the reflux coil output temp around 120 degrees as dad300 suggest... (right?)
If I dont have a sight glass... guess I need one...how do I know if I am flooding the column?
Is the output stream one indicator?

Anything else?

thanks again...
haeffnkr

[bluefish_dist]

First off, a 3" column can't take anywhere near 5500w and make a neutral. There is a speed calculator around and I like it to be 20 or less for good neutrals. I can run 5500w on a 4" with 8 ft of packed. I ran 1200-1500w on a 2", so I would expect that a 3" would be 3000 or less.
Get a temp gauge to go in the take off arm or just below the lowest point of the coil in the main column. If in the main column, protect it from splashing of the condensed distillate. It really makes running a column easier. Since proof is proportional to the temp, you can monitor the output easily and see if it's holding azeo.
Personally I would not be as critical on the water temp and instead use vapor temp to run. If water temp goes up you might have to lower the coil, but that's about it provided it's cold enough to condense the vapors.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

First off, a 3" column can't take anywhere near 5500w and make a neutral. There is a speed calculator around and I like it to be 20 or less for good neutrals. I can run 5500w on a 4" with 8 ft of packed. I ran 1200-1500w on a 2", so I would expect that a 3" would be 3000 or less.
Get a temp gauge to go in the take off arm or just below the lowest point of the coil in the main column. If in the main column, protect it from splashing of the condensed distillate. It really makes running a column easier. Since proof is proportional to the temp, you can monitor the output easily and see if it's holding azeo.
Personally I would not be as critical on the water temp and instead use vapor temp to run. If water temp goes up you might have to lower the coil, but that's about it provided it's cold enough to condense the vapors.

That's about right. When I run my 3" x 36" CCVM, I find that over ~4KW will flood it. I tend to run at 3.5KW or so. I recirculate water through 2 transmission coolers with fans and don't worry too much about the cooling water temperatures unless it gets too hot do proper condenser cooling. I just adjust the valve (coil) to compensate. If I could have just one column it would be a CCVM as it is very versatile. Luckily I have various columns to play with. The CCVM is so easy to build and run once you get the hang of it. Just my $0.02 worth.

[rgreen2002]

I can run 5500w on a 4" with 8 ft of packed...

.....insert jealousy here....