Packed column Vs plates

[ulster_beef1]

Hi folks,

I may not be the biggest poster on here but I certainly read a lot.

Before getting into potential new still design, I have a question(s).

I have a number of various boiler sizes. For example, a beer keg, 25l and a 5l. I use these sizes as I use a 25l mash tun to create my wash. Once striped, I get 5l of 40% to make into vodka.

As explained, I use my 5l boiler to make vodka using a 1.3m packed column. 1m column with 300mm condenser. I can create 96.7% jungle juice. However, it's slow. 1 drop a second roughly. If that's what it takes, I'm OK with that.

However, I can source plates and bubble caps.

My question therefore is... Is there any benefit with my small scale in creating a new still using bubble caps. Will it be faster? Purer? Etc etc. Of course I get itchy feet and want to get making for a new hobby.

Anyway, if so, obviously I can create a new post with the ideas I have in mind

Thanks for your help in advance.

[ulster_beef1]

I have another question that I mean to ask (it may need moved) but I'm just saying this here as a note to myself for when I get a reply.

Thanks

[bluefish_dist]

I have not found plates to run any faster than packing. I did find that sieve plates could take more power than bubble caps. At some point the limiting factor is the vapor speed, which is proportional to heat and column diameter. If you want faster go bigger and taller. Taller helps as you can get a more pure product without as much reflux. Larger diameter is faster as the area more than doubles from 2” to 4”. This means you can throw a lot more power to get the same vapor speed. I ran 2” at 1600-1800w and the 4” at 5000-6500w. About three times the takeoff.

[OtisT]

Now, you are gonna start a war here. Plates vs packed.

I don’t use bubble caps but I do know it is more expensive and complex to build a platted column versus a simple packed column. You will need a handful of plates to come near the fractioning potential of 1 meter of mesh. (See calcs page)

In my opinion, either type can make clean spirits and either type can be designed to produce spirits faster. The key is learning to drive what you have.

So, if it were me I would build a platted column if I wanted a plated column. There is definately a cool factor having plates to watch bubble. If limited money/time to build were a driving factor, I would just build a bigger packed column, assuming column size is your bottleneck. If you are looking at a 4” column diameter of greater, go with plates. Either plates or packed will get you to your end result.

If you goal is simply to produce faster, share some pics and details on your rig and maybe we can help. Type of column (VM/LM/CCVM, Boka, etc), column diameter, max heat/power, condenser details (type, size, fresh/recirc, etc)

There is always a bottleneck that limits production speed of a fractioning column. In most cases I have seen, the limiting factor is column diameter. The larger the diameter, the more power you can apply and still maintain a manageable vapor speed for proper fractioning.

Otis

[Yummyrum]

If making a nuetral is your desire then you are better off sticking with your packed column .
Plated stills are used for flavoured spirits like Rum or Whiskey. Normally uou would use about 4 plates . To make a nuetral requires close to 20 plates .

Also your boiler @5 liters is really small . It would be hopeless on a 4” plated column . I use often 50 liter wash charge in an 80 liter keg on my 4” plated still and I still find it works better if I add about 10 liters of stripped wash to it as well .

When I did smaller 25 liter washes in my 50liter keg it just didn’t produce a long hearts cut .So on 5liters of stripped wash it would be pointless to try . Also concider that each plate is holding around 100-250mls depending on bath depth on it so theres possibly a liter held up on the plates .

So what about using a smaller plated column like a 2” ? Well its been tried a few times over the years but I don’t recall anyone saying it worked well .

In sumary , you are better off sticking with a packed column unless you wish to up production .

[Setsumi]

First get a bigger boiler or run 3 to 4 strips in your 25l boiler. For vodka and speed get a 3" diameter ccvm rig. Plates are very nice, doubt I will run else soon, BUT good product needs time and flavourless vodka needs much reflux wich means slow

[ulster_beef1]

Thanks for your help.

I wasn't expecting as many replies. As explained, I've several still boilers that are interchangeable, so I'm not limited to just 5L. It was a size that suits me for making gin just.

This is my other question and it may need moved to the correct thread by an administrator if needed.

I can buy just about any still part and have people I can weld parts up for me. My only restriction is money haha. So, if I was to buy a plated column for vodka purposes. How many plates would I need and now the hard part for me... Obviously I'm used to a LM reflux column. Its simple to run... Close off take off valve, collect 78oC etc etc. When looking at plated builds, they look completely different. Does anyone have a link to how they run? Is there a take off valve in the same way as my column etc etc.? When looking, I can't seem to see anything other than plates, and leading into a U bend where the condenser is.

I will more than likely take on another build, that's why I'm curious.

[Yummyrum]

If you just read my post only two back you would see I said you would need about 20 plates for a nuetral
EDIT: removed potentially offensive grumpy old mod comment

[Saltbush Bill]

You don't seem to be listening to the advice given. A plated column is NOT what you want as a vodka still......stick to a proper reflux still.

[bluefish_dist]

Stick with packed for a vodka still. On the hobby level sizes, it’s much cheaper to build a tall packed column than a plated one. You need a minimum of 15 plates to make azeo and 20-30 are better, with 40 being the most needed. The hetp of ss scrubbies is about 4”. Thus 4”x20=80” of packing. Also the more you can get above 15 plates the faster it will run.

[emptyglass]

A combination of both works well.

Plates dont work well till you get to 4" dia. or thereabouts.

Stilling been around since before any of us got old. Theres not a lot thats new

[Bushman]

I like emptyglasses idea of a combination. I never mentioned this but when building my 4” packed column I took it down to Mash Rookies to finish it with his help. After the cleaning run we split a large amount of feints that I had and ran both his 3” plated with my packed column side by side. We both agreed that the product from my still came out better. I always thought the plated flute style column has the cool effect and I am not saying one is better than the other but agree with others when talking about cost vs outcome.

[emptyglass]

I should clarify what I meant. A combination works well when the target is neutral or vodka or other white spirit.

I've found packing is helpful for white spirits but not much good for brown spirits. Plates alone seem better at that job.

I've found this to be pretty true above 4" diameter. Under that plates will still work to a degree but dont do as well. Under 4" diameter and packing can be made to work very well. Really depends on your target product.

There is no one "right" way

[StormyC]

@emptyglass or anyone. I have a 2" column 21" tall and have packed it in at the bottom, in the middle, and at the top. Not 100% sure if this is best. If I add a plate or 2, will it improve taste/flavor -- I'm make only rum right now. I'm trying to get up to speed on HETP, but still new to this.

Thnx

[Saltbush Bill]

You dont need or want a packed column for making Rum.
You need to be using a pot still or plated column.
That or take all of the packing out of your column.

[Johnnywhiskey]

You dont need or want a packed column for making Rum.
You need to be using a pot still or plated column.
That or take all of the packing out of your column.

I disagree. It all depends on the amount of reflux and proof you run the still at, i.e., the theoretical plates of distillation. Put a needle valve on your reflux condenser and pull off your rum at 120-140p and you will have plenty of flavor. It does not matter if its a plated column or packed. Take it off at 180p and it won’t have much flavor at all—packed or plated column.

Packed columns are more efficient for their size—more theoretical plates per length of column. But plated columns are more practical on a large scale for durability and cleaning. The benefit of plated columns on the hobby scale? They look cool.

[Saltbush Bill]

I disagree.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, I happen to disagree with yours to.

[cayars]

I'm not sure how you can justify using physical plates to arrive at a specific proof but turn around and say theoretical plates used to reach the same proof don't/can't work to make the same spirit.

You can make rum in a simple pot, with a thumper or two (retorts), with a couple of plates (some commercial spirits up to 6) or with a column still running minimal reflux (many commercial spirits).

I'm not sure what the difference at the home level is going to be with 2 physical plates or roughly 2 theoretical plates of scrubbies or other material. Pull the spirits at the same ABV and they will taste very similar if not the same. You're not going to be running the reflux still like if you were making vodka but similar to running a pot still with minimal reflux to boost and hold abv, less or no compacting, or compacting of early heads but not late heads, etc

Here's an advanced bokabob type still with spp media running in column mode making rum.
https://istillblog.com/2019/12/14/istil ... -make-rum/
https://www.youtube.com/a8f3a3d6-2f67-4 ... 52df1094a7
jump to 4:50

[shadylane]

You dont need or want a packed column for making Rum.
You need to be using a pot still or plated column.
That or take all of the packing out of your column.

Many ways to skin the cat
I've had good luck making Rum with a packed column.
No need to remove packing, just turn the dephleg cooling water down or off.

[shadylane]

I have a number of various boiler sizes. For example, a beer keg, 25l and a 5l.

I use my 5l boiler to make vodka using a 1.3m packed column. 1m column with 300mm condenser. I can create 96.7% jungle juice. However, it's slow. 1 drop a second roughly. If that's what it takes, I'm OK with that.

My question therefore is... Is there any benefit with my small scale in creating a new still using bubble caps. Will it be faster? Purer? Etc etc.

I'm confused as normal
Which boiler will you be using, the 5l, 25l or the beer keg.

[Saltbush Bill]

Unless ive missed something no one even knows what sort of "packed column" this thing is. Now if its a boka for instance it might be a real bad idea to turn the reflux water down or right off.

[shadylane]

Good point

[cayars]

Unless ive missed something no one even knows what sort of "packed column" this thing is. Now if its a boka for instance it might be a real bad idea to turn the reflux water down or right off.

Good point SB. In that case instead of lowering the coolant water you would open the valve more for faster take off.

[Saltbush Bill]

Which in turn if done with to much power and to fast take off is going to pull tails through.
There are many ways to distill many things....but usually there is an easy way and a hard way. As a wise distiller once said....you can eat soup with a wrench.....but it isnt the right tool for the job.

[Johnnywhiskey]

Maybe I’m missing something, but why is a plated column the right tool for the job for making whiskey and rum and a packed column is the wrong tool? I don’t doubt that a plated column can do the job, and do a good job. But I’ve had good results with a packed column, and others have too. Maybe plated is your preference, and that is fine, but to say you need a plated column to do rum or whiskey is a bit of an overreach.

How is a plated column better? And how is packing wrong?

[bluefish_dist]

Columns all do the same thing, increase purity vs a pot still. An equivalent packed or plated column both give the same result in regards to abv. They do offer subtle differences in flavor profile. Even bubble vs sieve plates are different. I have run short packed columns to duplicate 2-3 plates and it does work. But they are really short, 8-15”. Since the HETP for scrubbies and marbles are less that the spacing of most plates in a 4” column you can get away with a shorter column when using packed. It’s also cheaper. A 4” 18” spool is much cheaper than 3 plates and T’s. Not nearly as sexy, but cheap and functional.

One of my best cfw was done with a packed column.

[Bushman]

Columns all do the same thing, increase purity vs a pot still. An equivalent packed or plated column both give the same result in regards to abv. They do offer subtle differences in flavor profile. Even bubble vs sieve plates are different. I have run short packed columns to duplicate 2-3 plates and it does work. But they are really short, 8-15”. Since the HETP for scrubbies and marbles are less that the spacing of most plates in a 4” column you can get away with a shorter column when using packed. It’s also cheaper. A 4” 18” spool is much cheaper than 3 plates and T’s. Not nearly as sexy, but cheap and functional.

One of my best cfw was done with a packed column.

+1, I have always said my packed column lacks the sexy look of a flute but gets the same results. I did a lot of research on this and until you go to an industrial size column with a larger diameter that packing looses it’s ability to work as well as plates due to the weight on the packing during reflux.

[cayars]

+1, actually can be better than physical plates as you can get more "plates" per less column height on home stills and not have to get the flooding "just right" for each plate in the flute as well.

Packed columns lack "bling factor" however which I think is the main draw for a lot of people.