Better "imitation" of the plates?

[Demy]

Hello members. I have read a lot about dishes and their use for flavored liqueurs, for my culture since I have never done dishes. Usually they distill seasonal fruit and I make it work with alembic (single or double stroke) sometimes I use the column.
My question is: Could it somehow mimic the result of plates with a low column (scrubber) and minimal reflux? I thought of "section" packaging with empty spaces or soft and not tight packaging. Any experience on this? Thank you all.

[zapata]

Yup. It was fairly common before the rise of the plated columns about 10 years ago. Lots of people used the phrase "detuned" to refer to a reflux still running with an aim to preserving flavor if that helps your searching.

I was pretty adamant back in the day that there couldn't be anything special about physical plates, that "hypothetical plates" on a packed column were at worst identical if not better. I don't hold that view any more. But I do think they can be very close. It takes a bit more experimenting to get both the abv and the flavor you want, where the plated columns are more predictable since you know exactly how many plates they have.

I haven't done a lot of fruits, but over the years I made plenty of rums and whiskies with anywhere from 6-24 inches of a copper packed 2" column and I reckon it's a perfectly reasonable way to make booze of all sorts.

[Saltbush Bill]

As stated above it was reasonably common practice until Plated Columns came on the scene.
There are plenty of threads on the subject out there, just google search " Detuned Boka"
this one by Mash Rookie sums it up pretty well I think.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=39751
Not sure what you mean by "dishes"

[CopperFiend]

Very interested in this. I was planning to half pack my 600mm packed column to make it the equivalent of 3 plates. Is this what you're thinking about Zapata?

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Not sure what you mean by "dishes"

Plates

[Demy]

As stated above it was reasonably common practice until Plated Columns came on the scene.
There are plenty of threads on the subject out there, just google search " Detuned Boka"
this one by Mash Rookie sums it up pretty well I think.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=39751
Not sure what you mean by "dishes"

I'm so sorry, sometimes I ask google translate for help, I didn't notice the wrong translation, of course I meant plates.

[Demy]

Well then I understand that it might be possible. Would a short VM column be fine or is a deflammator system necessary as in plate columns?

[zapata]

Dephlegmator is not necessary, for packed columns or plated columns. Personally, I despise the damn things in any format for any reason and think 90% of them are just silly. (Don't anybody come at me, I'm sure you're the 10% that are perfectly called for I did a lot of flavor runs with both LM and VM, keep in mind with VM you will have a minimum reflux ratio, which for flavored spirits I think of as a maximum flavor ratio. An equal Tee VM is fine, but if you have a smaller product branch than the reflux branch you will be limited. Can be overcome with less packing and higher power to a certain extent, but really being able to go to 1:1 is better.

I was planning to half pack my 600mm packed column to make it the equivalent of 3 plates. Is this what you're thinking about Zapata?

Yup. One thing to point out is that the # of equivalent plates seems to change more with reflux rate than it does on physical plates. With physical plates no matter what you do with reflux they tend to hover in a 10-20% band. But with packing you can get a huge variation. It will all be still dependent, so it doesn't really work to just say "oh, this is about three plates, that's what the plated still uses, I must be making the same product". But you can absolutely make good product.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

So, how many average copper mesh/scrubbers should I edge into my CM-Ф1.5"-H20"-tube to get 3 "theoretical" plates? And how about 5 plates? (And why?)

With some special calculator (and "more or less") I know how to get them with my "tuned" LM-head. But if we talk about the CM-management: doesn't the qty. of plates vary depending on the coolant supply (and not only the mesh height and density) ??

[CopperFiend]

So, how many average copper mesh/scrubbers should I edge into my CM-Ф1.5"-H20"-tube to get 3 "theoretical" plates? And how about 5 plates? (And why?)

With some special calculator (and "more or less") I know how to get them with my "tuned" LM-head. But if we talk about the CM-management: doesn't the qty. of plates vary depending on the coolant supply (and not only the mesh height and density) ??

https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/htm/calc ... p_calc.htm

Well, this is what I used to calculate that I would need to pack half of my 2" column and 1/3 of my 3" column to get the equivalent of 3 'plates' at the wattage I'd be using but as you say, I'm certain there are infinite other variables.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/htm/calc ... p_calc.htm

Well, this is what I used to calculate

Thank you, CF

[Demy]

Dephlegmator is not necessary, for packed columns or plated columns. Personally, I despise the damn things in any format for any reason and think 90% of them are just silly. (Don't anybody come at me, I'm sure you're the 10% that are perfectly called for I did a lot of flavor runs with both LM and VM, keep in mind with VM you will have a minimum reflux ratio, which for flavored spirits I think of as a maximum flavor ratio. An equal Tee VM is fine, but if you have a smaller product branch than the reflux branch you will be limited. Can be overcome with less packing and higher power to a certain extent, but really being able to go to 1:1 is better.

Thank you very much, I partly knew this info but a direct experience is of great help. So with a short column, loose packing, minimal reflux you could get close to the plates right? I built a 3 "VM column in recent days but I had to adapt what I find locally and with welding (no tri clamp) and 1" opening so I have to go with this. The minimum height of the column is 80cm (plus a space for the condenser at the top) and I can add another 50cm for the neutrals.

[bluefish_dist]

So, how many average copper mesh/scrubbers should I edge into my CM-Ф1.5"-H20"-tube to get 3 "theoretical" plates? And how about 5 plates? (And why?)

With some special calculator (and "more or less") I know how to get them with my "tuned" LM-head. But if we talk about the CM-management: doesn't the qty. of plates vary depending on the coolant supply (and not only the mesh height and density) ??

The hetp of stainless scrubbies is right about 4”. So in theory, 3 plates is 12” and 5 plates is 20”.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

The hetp of stainless scrubbies is right about 4”. So in theory, 3 plates is 12” and 5 plates is 20”.

Thanks... primarily, it's valid for "tuned" LM or VM, right?

[zapata]

Yes.... but only having 12" of packing instead of 48" is part of what people mean by "detuning". The rest of detuning is playing with reflux rate and maybe playing with power input (I'd leave the power at a reasonable level). Management style has no effect on hetp. And yes, HETP changes with reflux ratio, and even total number of "plates", it's just not a linear thing. 4" HETP is gonna be pretty close, and all it takes to verify is a thermometer and some math. Say HETP is 4" in your 12" packed column at a 4:1 RR, but what is the HETP at 4:1? A lot larger, and a thermometer will tell you better than simple calculators or rules of thumb. Run zero reflux and you'll get an HETP of several feet. But again, the changes aren't linear.

"detune" pretty much means "don't try to make the cleanest highest proof possible".

BTW, why is 3 plates the goal? Trying to emulate a particular still, flavor profile, or shooting for a target proof?

[VLAGAVULVIN]

The rest of detuning is playing with reflux rate and maybe playing with power input (I'd leave the power at a reasonable level).

So, I'd better play with VM and not CM here. Cause that CM and detuning is like turning the steering wheel with an adjustable wrench.

BTW, why is 3 plates the goal? Trying to emulate a particular still, flavor profile, or shooting for a target proof?

A good question, Zapp. For the recipes like that... or bourbons... or any "bright" allgrain whitedog I see no reason to use plates, doesn't matter 3 or 5. They will cut "brightness" of low boiling yummies. But will not remove one of the fusels.
Cause isopropanol is the bad guy:

low wines to product on 3 plates (5 paltes make a similar picture)

Even if I run it thru 3 or 5 plates just from my "beer" I cannot cut that guy:

ferment-to-booze, ~50cm long tube with some meshing in it

Looks like I know the decision... but it'll cut my light (low boiling) esters in that way...

the Gabri's method

And... is there a lot of <<isopropanol>> in corn&some_grain mashes at all?

[bluefish_dist]

The hetp of stainless scrubbies is right about 4”. So in theory, 3 plates is 12” and 5 plates is 20”.

Thanks... primarily, it's valid for "tuned" LM or VM, right?

I don’t know exactly what you mean by tuned. You need a decent amount of reflux and as mentioned it does change some by reflux ratio. The way I see it, it’s better to tune the amount of plates to what you want as an output and then run reflux in a consistent range. I see a lot of post about more plates and less reflux. In my experience that just didn’t work on my VM. Just dragged the tails right through. If I wanted a smeared flavorful product, run 2 plates, cleaner white, 3 plates and vodka 20 plates. Each setup seemed to have a sweet spot where it was stable and made a certain abv. Trying to get it outside that spot by controlling reflux didn’t work all that well.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

I'm with you, Fishie: I'd better get enough reflux on tiny scrubbers than too much vapor in a way longer tube. And a VM-head is the best "wheel" in our hands for that.

So, we get a reacher product than from "Coffey stills" but nevertheless, it will be poor in some important fractions. Like fatty acids, for example.

P.S. My "tuned" meaning = stable all run long for smth. like vodka.

[Demy]

This is a pleasant conversation. I've always been comfortable with a VM and the post comes from the fact that in my opinion it can be performed in various ways to obtain different characteristics .... do you agree?

[bluefish_dist]

This is a pleasant conversation. I've always been comfortable with a VM and the post comes from the fact that in my opinion it can be performed in various ways to obtain different characteristics .... do you agree?

I do agree. I found from tuning the column with different numbers of plates I have been able to make very different products. The only real problem I see with a VM is that it does not scale well which limits its use to hobby size stills. I have always wanted to try a reverse LM as it should act like a VM. If nothing else to see how it works. I did make a LM side on a few of my stills, but never liked how it ran.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

With VMs, the percentage of reflux strictly depends on the valve's opening. If we have five cross-sections open for return against one cross-section for the outlet, then RR is 5, no double talks. It's doesn't depend on the water temp or pressure. And what's more "pleasant", the RR won't depend on the vapors' pressure. Which gets weak closer to the end of the run.

In that way, the LM needs more corrections... as for the CM - it's a permanent tambourine dance.

Sorey for my Greek / it's time to fall down asleep for me here, g'bye...

[Demy]

Bluefish, forgive my bad English, but what did you mean by "that doesn't scale well which limits its use to hobby-sized photos"?

[bluefish_dist]

Bluefish, forgive my bad English, but what did you mean by "that doesn't scale well which limits its use to hobby-sized photos"?

The problem with a vm is getting a big valve to control the takeoff. When you start getting to big columns ie 6”+, the valves are big to ensure 1:1 reflux. They get very expensive. I ran a 4” valve on my 6” column, it was $400+. IMHO wasn’t worth it as I never ran 1:1 reflux. Usually ran a 2” or 1” valve depending on what I was running as they got me in the right range of reflux ratio.

IMHO a CM is easy to build big. With a CM style, you can made a big deflag fairly cheap and it’s easy to build bigger ones.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Easy to build, not easy to control?

[Saltbush Bill]

If you cant control a CM you either built it wrong......need better water flow control....or need to try harder.... its really not that difficult.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

its really not that difficult.

Not that difficult, yeah. But compared to VM, it's the shaman's dance

[Demy]

I built the 3 "column in ccvm style (almost) and I think it is the right way to get around the valve topic, also the column is much lighter. I used what I had at the time (steam outlet 1") but Cerdo I will upgrade to 2 ", the pieces are welded, no triclamp.

[Demy]

I forgot to ask you all one thing: using the column as mentioned above in "flavored distillates" mode, I think it would be appropriate to do a short stabilization (equilibrium) with respect to neutrals, this to limit the distillations inside the column without product release. Does it make sense to you or am I wrong?

[shadylane]

My preference is a CM instead of a LM or VM.
A CM has a wider range of reflux ratios
It can be easily used to make everything from neutrals to flavored liquor such as rum and whiskey.
A CM uses less water and the hot waste water can be used for mashing

Unlike a VM or LM the cooling water into a dephleg must be a constant temp.
If it's not, then a CM rig will drive you crazy trying to keep the reflux ratio constant.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Maybe, I need to play some more with my CM-head. Probably, I need to replace it to another one.

The coolant I get comes from some secret hole made in a planet. It's A-quality and free for a while. So, my concerns are about variable pressure and temperature: for CMs it's critical.